AoO with Improvised Weapon? [Archive] - Wizards Community

AoO with Improvised Weapon? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Huffheinz
12-01-04, 12:30 PM Ran into this one last night in our game...and can't seem to find an answer

(3.5 please)

The thief has a bow and forgets to draw his short sword as he moves within 5' of the bad guy. The bad guy decides to drink a healing potion, which would provoke an AoO if the thief was using a non missile weapon.

Can the thief take the AoO if he decides to use his bow as an improvised weapon to smack the bad guy?

I understand using an improvised weapon results in a -4 to hit. There was some discussion at the table as to whether or not you could take an AoO using a weapon you are not proficient in.
Naeron
12-01-04, 12:39 PM You can take an AoO with a weapon you are not proficent with.

However in this case the Rogue cannot take an AoO because when armed with a bow you do not threaten any adjacent squares.

He would have had to declare that he was drawing some form of melee capable weapon (even if it was an arrow to be used as an improvised weapon) on his turn to allow him to threaten and thus make AoO's, this limits his other actions to include a move action to either draw the weapon or get the free draw concurrent with movement from having a +1 BAB or higher (note: it has to be normal movement). All of this prevents the use of full attack unless he has quick draw.
BlackFiend
12-01-04, 12:43 PM For the sake of keeping a speedy game, I would say no. The argument could be made for unarmed strike as well.

If you forgot to draw a real weapon out, you forgot. Take it like a man. :)
tarkin
12-01-04, 01:01 PM Naeron is right, but I would word it differently.

In order to get an AoO the weapon must be griped for use/wielded for attack.

Grips are different for making a melee attack or for making a ranged attack.

Here is an extreme case:

If I am fighting someone with a rifle, I can fire the gun at them from a distance.

When they get too close, I can remove my finger from the trigger, turn the gun around and hold it by the barrell, then use it as an improvised weapon, hitting them with the stock (handle).

Obviosly I am not ready to pull the trigger on them.
And only a moron would try to hit someone with the barrell of the gun, it would do less damage and destroy the gun.

A bow is not designed to be a melee weapon. You might be able to effectively strike at someone with it if you changed your grip from the center of the bow to a tip and used it like a club. But there is no way you you effectively attaack with the bow while holding it from center.
BlackFiend
12-01-04, 02:07 PM Actually, the bayonet was a great tactical addition to the rifle. In essence, it allows a rifleman to do ranged attacks AND threaten within 5' of them.

If it was a weapon built for such, then yes, I could agree. But no where in the rules does it give the option to convert a bow to doing an improvised AoO. Otherwise, every archer would do the same, every disarmed fighter or wizard would use his foot or fist to get an AoO.

No where does it give license to do so. Unless we are talking about someone who used a feat to use improvised weapons. Then, I would consider it. Seriously...everyone and everything would get AoO. That bogs the game down considerably.
mercurial67
12-01-04, 03:16 PM If he was using the melee weapon as an improvised weapon, then it would be a melee weapon. Unless he was specifically using it as such though, it would still be a ranged weapon which does not threaten.

He could use the bow as an improvised weapon on his next turn, but he can't take a free action to "convert" it to an improvised weapon when it isn't his turn.

(just my 2 cents)
Draco Strang
12-01-04, 03:40 PM Actually, the bayonet was a great tactical addition to the rifle. In essence, it allows a rifleman to do ranged attacks AND threaten within 5' of them.

If it was a weapon built for such, then yes, I could agree. But no where in the rules does it give the option to convert a bow to doing an improvised AoO. Otherwise, every archer would do the same, every disarmed fighter or wizard would use his foot or fist to get an AoO.

No where does it give license to do so. Unless we are talking about someone who used a feat to use improvised weapons. Then, I would consider it. Seriously...everyone and everything would get AoO. That bogs the game down considerably.

Well....we all know the answer for this.

Let's rig bayonets onto our bows!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Huffheinz 12-01-04, 12:30 PM	Ran into this one last night in our game...and can't seem to find an answer (3.5 please) The thief has a bow and forgets to draw his short sword as he moves within 5' of the bad guy. The bad guy decides to drink a healing potion, which would provoke an AoO if the thief was using a non missile weapon. Can the thief take the AoO if he decides to use his bow as an improvised weapon to smack the bad guy? I understand using an improvised weapon results in a -4 to hit. There was some discussion at the table as to whether or not you could take an AoO using a weapon you are not proficient in.
Naeron 12-01-04, 12:39 PM	You can take an AoO with a weapon you are not proficent with. However in this case the Rogue cannot take an AoO because when armed with a bow you do not threaten any adjacent squares. He would have had to declare that he was drawing some form of melee capable weapon (even if it was an arrow to be used as an improvised weapon) on his turn to allow him to threaten and thus make AoO's, this limits his other actions to include a move action to either draw the weapon or get the free draw concurrent with movement from having a +1 BAB or higher (note: it has to be normal movement). All of this prevents the use of full attack unless he has quick draw.
BlackFiend 12-01-04, 12:43 PM	For the sake of keeping a speedy game, I would say no. The argument could be made for unarmed strike as well. If you forgot to draw a real weapon out, you forgot. Take it like a man. :)
tarkin 12-01-04, 01:01 PM	Naeron is right, but I would word it differently. In order to get an AoO the weapon must be griped for use/wielded for attack. Grips are different for making a melee attack or for making a ranged attack. Here is an extreme case: If I am fighting someone with a rifle, I can fire the gun at them from a distance. When they get too close, I can remove my finger from the trigger, turn the gun around and hold it by the barrell, then use it as an improvised weapon, hitting them with the stock (handle). Obviosly I am not ready to pull the trigger on them. And only a moron would try to hit someone with the barrell of the gun, it would do less damage and destroy the gun. A bow is not designed to be a melee weapon. You might be able to effectively strike at someone with it if you changed your grip from the center of the bow to a tip and used it like a club. But there is no way you you effectively attaack with the bow while holding it from center.
BlackFiend 12-01-04, 02:07 PM	Actually, the bayonet was a great tactical addition to the rifle. In essence, it allows a rifleman to do ranged attacks AND threaten within 5' of them. If it was a weapon built for such, then yes, I could agree. But no where in the rules does it give the option to convert a bow to doing an improvised AoO. Otherwise, every archer would do the same, every disarmed fighter or wizard would use his foot or fist to get an AoO. No where does it give license to do so. Unless we are talking about someone who used a feat to use improvised weapons. Then, I would consider it. Seriously...everyone and everything would get AoO. That bogs the game down considerably.
mercurial67 12-01-04, 03:16 PM	If he was using the melee weapon as an improvised weapon, then it would be a melee weapon. Unless he was specifically using it as such though, it would still be a ranged weapon which does not threaten. He could use the bow as an improvised weapon on his next turn, but he can't take a free action to "convert" it to an improvised weapon when it isn't his turn. (just my 2 cents)
Draco Strang 12-01-04, 03:40 PM	Actually, the bayonet was a great tactical addition to the rifle. In essence, it allows a rifleman to do ranged attacks AND threaten within 5' of them. If it was a weapon built for such, then yes, I could agree. But no where in the rules does it give the option to convert a bow to doing an improvised AoO. Otherwise, every archer would do the same, every disarmed fighter or wizard would use his foot or fist to get an AoO. No where does it give license to do so. Unless we are talking about someone who used a feat to use improvised weapons. Then, I would consider it. Seriously...everyone and everything would get AoO. That bogs the game down considerably. Well....we all know the answer for this. Let's rig bayonets onto our bows!