AoO? [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

AoO? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ishpumalibu
12-26-07, 07:15 AM Can you exchange a bull rush attempt in place of a normal melee attack for attacks of opportunity?
sapient
12-26-07, 07:44 AM My answer would generally be no. In the description of bull rush, it is stated that it can be performed as part of a charge or as a standard action. That implies that you need more time to prepare a bull rush attempt, than the quick reflex an AoO represents.

Unless you readied the action earlier in the round in anticipation of your enemy making an action that would provoke an AoO, I would not allow it. (Of course if you readied the bull rush you could as easily choose another condition to trigger it. But it would be the only possibility to do a bull rush as an AoO that I can see.)
ishpumalibu
12-26-07, 07:52 AM ok, i was just curious since making a single attack is a standard action so it seems like they take the same ammount of time, obviously you couldn't do the type of bull rush where you follow the person if you've already moved in the round, you'd have to do the push them away and stay there type.
sapient
12-26-07, 08:16 AM Well, a single attack and an Attack of Opportunity could be equally long, but since the 6 second battleround is mostly an abstraction anyway, it wouldn't be wise to try an analyse all actions as fitting perfectly into that time. In effect an action need only be long enough to prevent any alternative action to take place within the rest of the round, but still leave time that can't be used for anything.

Or - with high enough dex and the Combat reflexes feat - you could do several AoO's in one round, while still only allowed one attack even as a full attack action (if your BAB is to low for iterative attacks). So comparing them to find out how long time they might take, is really not useful.

It is much more important that the wording of the bull rush description says that is must be performed as a standard action (to attack) or as part of a charge. The rest is just what you can make up to explain that in a sensible way (hopefully).

.
Amaril
12-26-07, 12:04 PM Yes, you can. An attack of opportunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/attacksOfOpportunity.htm#makinganAttacko fOpportunity) as a single melee attack. You can make a bull rush (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#bullRush) as a standard action (an attack) or as part of a charge.
Eerongal
12-26-07, 12:16 PM No, actually, you cannot. Because a bull rush is a standard action, or part of a charge. Neither of which can be used on an AoO. Attacks you can use on an AoO are things like trip, disarm, or sunder, because, while you can use a single one of these during a single attack as a standard action, they are not standard actions, they are melee attack actions, as stated in their descriptions, which can be used interchangably on any attack you make, regardless if it's an AoO, full attack, standard action attack, or any other attack you get for any other reason.

However, if you get the knockback feat, you can technically do so.
Belkar
12-26-07, 01:39 PM Yeah.

Confusing, but think of it this way:

All attack actions are standard actions, but not all standard actions are attack actions. ;)

Attacks of Opportunity must be "attack actions." Attack actions include; an attack; a trip; a sunder. As stated in these actions' descriptions, they are attack actions. The bull rush description states it is a standard action, not an attack action - so you couldn't use it in an AoO.

Saying you can is along the lines of saying you could cast a spell as an AoO, or activate a magic item. Those things are standard actions too - but not something that can be done as an AoO.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ishpumalibu 12-26-07, 07:15 AM	Can you exchange a bull rush attempt in place of a normal melee attack for attacks of opportunity?
sapient 12-26-07, 07:44 AM	My answer would generally be no. In the description of bull rush, it is stated that it can be performed as part of a charge or as a standard action. That implies that you need more time to prepare a bull rush attempt, than the quick reflex an AoO represents. Unless you readied the action earlier in the round in anticipation of your enemy making an action that would provoke an AoO, I would not allow it. (Of course if you readied the bull rush you could as easily choose another condition to trigger it. But it would be the only possibility to do a bull rush as an AoO that I can see.)
ishpumalibu 12-26-07, 07:52 AM	ok, i was just curious since making a single attack is a standard action so it seems like they take the same ammount of time, obviously you couldn't do the type of bull rush where you follow the person if you've already moved in the round, you'd have to do the push them away and stay there type.
sapient 12-26-07, 08:16 AM	Well, a single attack and an Attack of Opportunity could be equally long, but since the 6 second battleround is mostly an abstraction anyway, it wouldn't be wise to try an analyse all actions as fitting perfectly into that time. In effect an action need only be long enough to prevent any alternative action to take place within the rest of the round, but still leave time that can't be used for anything. Or - with high enough dex and the Combat reflexes feat - you could do several AoO's in one round, while still only allowed one attack even as a full attack action (if your BAB is to low for iterative attacks). So comparing them to find out how long time they might take, is really not useful. It is much more important that the wording of the bull rush description says that is must be performed as a standard action (to attack) or as part of a charge. The rest is just what you can make up to explain that in a sensible way (hopefully). .
Amaril 12-26-07, 12:04 PM	Yes, you can. An attack of opportunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/attacksOfOpportunity.htm#makinganAttacko fOpportunity) as a single melee attack. You can make a bull rush (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#bullRush) as a standard action (an attack) or as part of a charge.
Eerongal 12-26-07, 12:16 PM	No, actually, you cannot. Because a bull rush is a standard action, or part of a charge. Neither of which can be used on an AoO. Attacks you can use on an AoO are things like trip, disarm, or sunder, because, while you can use a single one of these during a single attack as a standard action, they are not standard actions, they are melee attack actions, as stated in their descriptions, which can be used interchangably on any attack you make, regardless if it's an AoO, full attack, standard action attack, or any other attack you get for any other reason. However, if you get the knockback feat, you can technically do so.
Belkar 12-26-07, 01:39 PM	Yeah. Confusing, but think of it this way: All attack actions are standard actions, but not all standard actions are attack actions. ;) Attacks of Opportunity must be "attack actions." Attack actions include; an attack; a trip; a sunder. As stated in these actions' descriptions, they are attack actions. The bull rush description states it is a standard action, not an attack action - so you couldn't use it in an AoO. Saying you can is along the lines of saying you could cast a spell as an AoO, or activate a magic item. Those things are standard actions too - but not something that can be done as an AoO.