AoOs and ranged weapons [Archive] - Wizards Community

AoOs and ranged weapons [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
fogel
11-15-04, 06:46 PM Hey everyone,

I've joined a new group and they have that strange rule that I must verify here.

My DM says that when an opponent threaten someone with a bow, they get an AoO. I was aware that using a ranged weapon in a threatened area could give you an AoO but not the other way around.

He argues that someone with a ranged weapon could always just step back 5ft and use the bow, thus not giving an AoO and that would seems overpowered... :rolleyes:

Well, of course, I have no problems with house rules but hey, at least they'll know if it's a core rule or not.

Thanks for any insights you could give me.
LukiLoki
11-15-04, 06:59 PM I'm not quite sure what it is that your DM has decided to allow.
If it is making AoOs at range, then that's right out. It makes less than no sense.
Kyaran
11-15-04, 07:02 PM My DM says that when an opponent threaten someone with a bow, they get an AoO. I was aware that using a ranged weapon in a threatened area could give you an AoO but not the other way around.

He argues that someone with a ranged weapon could always just step back 5ft and use the bow, thus not giving an AoO and that would seems overpowered... :rolleyes: What I understand you to be saying is that your DM has declared that a foe who merely threatens a PC wielding a bow is given an attack of opportunity. This is not core.

As written, firing a ranged weapon in a threatened area provokes an AoO. Merely standing there does not. It is no different than being unarmed.

Also, yes, a PC with a bow can step back 5' and use their bow. This is good, but still doesn't get them out of range. Picture this: two fighters standing in a field hacking at each other. Now, picture this: a fighter and an archer; the fighter hacks, the archer steps back and shoots, the fighter steps forward and hacks, repeat. Same scenario, only the archer is constrained by needing somewhere to step.

Also, if he's allowing an AoO to be made with a ranged weapon, that's not core either (except for a prestige class ability). Ranged weapons do not threaten, and so actions cannot provoke AoOs in a threatened area that does not exist.

Hope that helps.
fogel
11-15-04, 07:06 PM I'll try to clarify a bit.

This is what my DM allow :

Char A is using a ranged weapon at initiative 10.
Char B (whatever ;) ) is using an axe at initiative 5.

A shoot the orc. B charge A. B has an AoO on A because A is holding a ranged weapon.

--
Normally B would only have an AoO because A is using his ranged weapon when B threaten A.

hehe.. Sounds a lot more complicated now. :D
LukiLoki
11-15-04, 07:15 PM Well, OK, it's getting better. At least this makes exactly no sense, rather than less. ;)

AoOs have to be provoked. It doesn't matter if you're HOLDING a ranged weapon, a melee weapon, or a fruitcake. It's what you do with whatever you're holding while you're threatened that counts.

I guess your DM is thinking that you can't effectively defend yourself against a sword with a bow in your hands, which isn't really true as long as you can duck and weave, and make yourself hard to hit.
masterofmayhem
11-15-04, 07:17 PM It is a houserule. Definitely not core.
Shir'Kazan
11-15-04, 07:26 PM It's just like a spell caster can cast a spell "on the defense", and thus he doesn't provoke AoO ("paying" for it with Concentration check) - Means it doenst matter what you have in hand or what you do as long as you can be aware and react to the on Threaten you.
When you just hold a Ranged weapon you can still react. When you use it, you divert your concentration and focus thus provoking AoO.
CruelDM
11-15-04, 07:51 PM Keep in mind that an archer can use the range weapon (bow or crossbow) as an improvised melee weapon (taking -4 to attack) and therefore does threaten all adjacent squares. An archer can take advantage of any AoOs that are provoked in adjacent squares if they choose to wield it in this manner.
fogel
11-15-04, 09:53 PM Thanks for all the answers... I'll tell my DM that it's not a core rule.
masterofmayhem
11-15-04, 10:18 PM Don't try to force him. In fact, don't even politely tell him so. Bring it up on "accident."

DM "OK, you're holding a bow, so he gets an AoO."

You "Oh, we're using that houserule?"

DM "Houserule? :confused: "

Well, I find that works best for me. Not for everyone, I suppose. :angel:
fogel
11-16-04, 10:21 AM :D Well, too late now because since I know that he's using that house rule, then I can't bring it up "on accident".

Thanks for the tip though. ;)
tarkin
11-16-04, 10:31 AM Just tell him that that it is a house rule pre game. Tell him you are willing to play with it, but it definitely is a house rule.

Officially, yes, the archer CAN just take a 5ft step and not get the AoO.

Unless of course you are using a spiked chain and got next to him :devil:
Dalton Onestone
11-16-04, 06:07 PM Now I'm more confused.

Assume a one-on-one fight. When IS an archer subject to an AoO?

I have a first-level elf who's been reaching for his longsword instead of his longbow because he was afraid of AoOs, even in battles where he has higher initiative. Is that a mistake?
LukiLoki
11-16-04, 06:22 PM Firing a ranged weapon provokes an AoO.
primemover003
11-16-04, 06:57 PM to clarify what loki said...

If you attack with a ranged weapon WHILE in a threatened square you provoke an AoO. Firing a bow in and of itself is only dangerous if your enemy is right next to you.
Dalton Onestone
11-16-04, 07:59 PM to clarify what loki said...

If you attack with a ranged weapon WHILE in a threatened square you provoke an AoO. Firing a bow in and of itself is only dangerous if your enemy is right next to you.

So if you win initiative, step back five feet, and fire your bow, are you in a threatened square provoking an AoO?
primemover003
11-16-04, 08:15 PM As long as no enemy is standing right next to you you'll be OK... just watch out for people with reach weapons.

If you have your PHB handy re-read the combat chapter. I do it every few weeks just to keep the rules clear in my head. It seems I always learn something new about the system each time.
Nom
11-16-04, 11:42 PM Quick summary of relevant rules:

* Threatened area: you threaten the area in which you can (at the current point in time with your current weapon/s) make an armed melee attack. This includes active touch spells, Improved Unarmed Strike, and natural (lethal) weapons.

Bows do not allow you to make armed melee attacks (while being used as bows), therefore a bow user has no threatened area and cannot make attacks of opportunity.

* Firing a bow while in someone's threatened area provokes an attack of opportunity from that person.

If you take a 5 ft. step so that you are no longer within any opponent's threatened area, you suffer no attacks of opportunity from firing a bow.

It is specifically legal (and intended) to take a 5 ft. step out of threat range and then unleash a full attack with a bow. It is also specifically legal (and intended) for the opponent to - on his turn - take a 5 ft. step and full attack you with a full melee attack. Smart melee fighters will back archers up against a wall (or, even better, a flanking ally) so they cannot keep slipping away.
01d55
11-17-04, 12:23 AM Smarter melee fighters will use a spear, spiked chain, or other "reach" weapon that allows them to threaten an area which cannot be escaped by a single 5-ft. step. If your DM thinks archers using a 5-ft. step to full attack a melee fighter who has closed to melee range without penalty is overpowered, he can rectify the situation without houseruling by equipping his monsters with spears, or using larger sized opponents (whose natural weapons usually have a longer reach)
Dalton Onestone
11-17-04, 01:47 PM Thanks. So the trick is to keep moving.

Uh -- I don't understand why the bowshot has to be a full attack? Is that because of the arrow needing to be gotten out of the quiver?
Kyaran
11-17-04, 02:38 PM Uh -- I don't understand why the bowshot has to be a full attack?It doesn't have to be. Drawing ammunition (like arrows, bolts, bullets, or shuriken) is a free action, but some weapons (such as crossbows and slings) require actions to load.

If you want, you can take a 5' step back to get out of a threatened square as a non-action, fire a single shot as a standard action, drop your bow as a free action, and draw a sword as a move-equivalent action.

I believe posters were specifying a full attack to illustrate that it's legal to make a full attack after taking a 5' step, so you get your whole attack and no AoO.

The trick is actually to stay far enough back that you never get in melee range of someone, but failing that... keep moving. ;)
Dalton Onestone
11-17-04, 03:11 PM It sounds as if Tumble continues to be a good skill -- when you can't move back any further, get past the guy and start retreating in the other direction.

I wish one could feint with a bow at pointblank range. That feat should be available.
hullhawk
11-17-04, 05:15 PM If you start of your turn next to an archer and you have a higher initiative. you can ready an action, the readied action will be to take a 5 foot step forward in response to a 5 foot step from the archer. If the archer attempts to use a bow then he provokes an AoO. if he moves more than 5 feet and attempts to use the bow he still provokes the attack of oppurtunity...
CruelDM
11-17-04, 07:20 PM If you want, you can take a 5' step back to get out of a threatened square as a free action, fire a single shot as a standard action, drop your bow as a free action, and draw a sword as a move-equivalent action.

It doesnt work quite this way, firstly, drawing a weapon is a move equivelant action. The only time drawing a weapon is a free action is with the quick draw feat. If you have a +1 BAB you can draw a weapon as part of a move, but without quick draw you have to draw the weapon when you move back 5 feet. So, if you took the step back to avoid an AoO you have to drop the bow and draw a weapon then, therefore you dont have the bow out anymore to take 1 shot. You also cannot take a 5 foot step in any round you move and a 5 foot step is not a free action. You could, however, take a step back, drop the bow, draw the sword and ready an attack with the trigger "if he comes into melee range".

Edit: Actually, after reading the quote again, it would work the way the quote described. You could do it either way depending on the circumstances.
Kyaran
11-17-04, 09:27 PM Note: Snipped
a 5 foot step is not a free actionYou're right... it's not an action at all! I always forget that. ;)
It's a special action, allowed only once per round, and not if you take another move action that same round. (Move action being distinct from a move-equivalent action.)

Also, I'm not sure if you were implying so or not, but you can not draw a weapon as part of a 5' step. You can draw a weapon (presuming +1 BAB) as part of a normal move action. This precludes any other actions, such as running, charging, tumbling (but you can tumble for part of a normal move then draw a weapon during a different part of the normal move... I think), or 5' stepping.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
fogel 11-15-04, 06:46 PM	Hey everyone, I've joined a new group and they have that strange rule that I must verify here. My DM says that when an opponent threaten someone with a bow, they get an AoO. I was aware that using a ranged weapon in a threatened area could give you an AoO but not the other way around. He argues that someone with a ranged weapon could always just step back 5ft and use the bow, thus not giving an AoO and that would seems overpowered... :rolleyes: Well, of course, I have no problems with house rules but hey, at least they'll know if it's a core rule or not. Thanks for any insights you could give me.
LukiLoki 11-15-04, 06:59 PM	I'm not quite sure what it is that your DM has decided to allow. If it is making AoOs at range, then that's right out. It makes less than no sense.
Kyaran 11-15-04, 07:02 PM	My DM says that when an opponent threaten someone with a bow, they get an AoO. I was aware that using a ranged weapon in a threatened area could give you an AoO but not the other way around. He argues that someone with a ranged weapon could always just step back 5ft and use the bow, thus not giving an AoO and that would seems overpowered... :rolleyes: What I understand you to be saying is that your DM has declared that a foe who merely threatens a PC wielding a bow is given an attack of opportunity. This is not core. As written, firing a ranged weapon in a threatened area provokes an AoO. Merely standing there does not. It is no different than being unarmed. Also, yes, a PC with a bow can step back 5' and use their bow. This is good, but still doesn't get them out of range. Picture this: two fighters standing in a field hacking at each other. Now, picture this: a fighter and an archer; the fighter hacks, the archer steps back and shoots, the fighter steps forward and hacks, repeat. Same scenario, only the archer is constrained by needing somewhere to step. Also, if he's allowing an AoO to be made with a ranged weapon, that's not core either (except for a prestige class ability). Ranged weapons do not threaten, and so actions cannot provoke AoOs in a threatened area that does not exist. Hope that helps.
fogel 11-15-04, 07:06 PM	I'll try to clarify a bit. This is what my DM allow : Char A is using a ranged weapon at initiative 10. Char B (whatever ;) ) is using an axe at initiative 5. A shoot the orc. B charge A. B has an AoO on A because A is holding a ranged weapon. -- Normally B would only have an AoO because A is using his ranged weapon when B threaten A. hehe.. Sounds a lot more complicated now. :D
LukiLoki 11-15-04, 07:15 PM	Well, OK, it's getting better. At least this makes exactly no sense, rather than less. ;) AoOs have to be provoked. It doesn't matter if you're HOLDING a ranged weapon, a melee weapon, or a fruitcake. It's what you do with whatever you're holding while you're threatened that counts. I guess your DM is thinking that you can't effectively defend yourself against a sword with a bow in your hands, which isn't really true as long as you can duck and weave, and make yourself hard to hit.
masterofmayhem 11-15-04, 07:17 PM	It is a houserule. Definitely not core.
Shir'Kazan 11-15-04, 07:26 PM	It's just like a spell caster can cast a spell "on the defense", and thus he doesn't provoke AoO ("paying" for it with Concentration check) - Means it doenst matter what you have in hand or what you do as long as you can be aware and react to the on Threaten you. When you just hold a Ranged weapon you can still react. When you use it, you divert your concentration and focus thus provoking AoO.
CruelDM 11-15-04, 07:51 PM	Keep in mind that an archer can use the range weapon (bow or crossbow) as an improvised melee weapon (taking -4 to attack) and therefore does threaten all adjacent squares. An archer can take advantage of any AoOs that are provoked in adjacent squares if they choose to wield it in this manner.
fogel 11-15-04, 09:53 PM	Thanks for all the answers... I'll tell my DM that it's not a core rule.
masterofmayhem 11-15-04, 10:18 PM	Don't try to force him. In fact, don't even politely tell him so. Bring it up on "accident." DM "OK, you're holding a bow, so he gets an AoO." You "Oh, we're using that houserule?" DM "Houserule? :confused: " Well, I find that works best for me. Not for everyone, I suppose. :angel:
fogel 11-16-04, 10:21 AM	:D Well, too late now because since I know that he's using that house rule, then I can't bring it up "on accident". Thanks for the tip though. ;)
tarkin 11-16-04, 10:31 AM	Just tell him that that it is a house rule pre game. Tell him you are willing to play with it, but it definitely is a house rule. Officially, yes, the archer CAN just take a 5ft step and not get the AoO. Unless of course you are using a spiked chain and got next to him :devil:
Dalton Onestone 11-16-04, 06:07 PM	Now I'm more confused. Assume a one-on-one fight. When IS an archer subject to an AoO? I have a first-level elf who's been reaching for his longsword instead of his longbow because he was afraid of AoOs, even in battles where he has higher initiative. Is that a mistake?
LukiLoki 11-16-04, 06:22 PM	Firing a ranged weapon provokes an AoO.
primemover003 11-16-04, 06:57 PM	to clarify what loki said... If you attack with a ranged weapon WHILE in a threatened square you provoke an AoO. Firing a bow in and of itself is only dangerous if your enemy is right next to you.
Dalton Onestone 11-16-04, 07:59 PM	to clarify what loki said... If you attack with a ranged weapon WHILE in a threatened square you provoke an AoO. Firing a bow in and of itself is only dangerous if your enemy is right next to you. So if you win initiative, step back five feet, and fire your bow, are you in a threatened square provoking an AoO?
primemover003 11-16-04, 08:15 PM	As long as no enemy is standing right next to you you'll be OK... just watch out for people with reach weapons. If you have your PHB handy re-read the combat chapter. I do it every few weeks just to keep the rules clear in my head. It seems I always learn something new about the system each time.
Nom 11-16-04, 11:42 PM	Quick summary of relevant rules: * Threatened area: you threaten the area in which you can (at the current point in time with your current weapon/s) make an armed melee attack. This includes active touch spells, Improved Unarmed Strike, and natural (lethal) weapons. Bows do not allow you to make armed melee attacks (while being used as bows), therefore a bow user has no threatened area and cannot make attacks of opportunity. * Firing a bow while in someone's threatened area provokes an attack of opportunity from that person. If you take a 5 ft. step so that you are no longer within any opponent's threatened area, you suffer no attacks of opportunity from firing a bow. It is specifically legal (and intended) to take a 5 ft. step out of threat range and then unleash a full attack with a bow. It is also specifically legal (and intended) for the opponent to - on his turn - take a 5 ft. step and full attack you with a full melee attack. Smart melee fighters will back archers up against a wall (or, even better, a flanking ally) so they cannot keep slipping away.
01d55 11-17-04, 12:23 AM	Smarter melee fighters will use a spear, spiked chain, or other "reach" weapon that allows them to threaten an area which cannot be escaped by a single 5-ft. step. If your DM thinks archers using a 5-ft. step to full attack a melee fighter who has closed to melee range without penalty is overpowered, he can rectify the situation without houseruling by equipping his monsters with spears, or using larger sized opponents (whose natural weapons usually have a longer reach)
Dalton Onestone 11-17-04, 01:47 PM	Thanks. So the trick is to keep moving. Uh -- I don't understand why the bowshot has to be a full attack? Is that because of the arrow needing to be gotten out of the quiver?
Kyaran 11-17-04, 02:38 PM	Uh -- I don't understand why the bowshot has to be a full attack?It doesn't have to be. Drawing ammunition (like arrows, bolts, bullets, or shuriken) is a free action, but some weapons (such as crossbows and slings) require actions to load. If you want, you can take a 5' step back to get out of a threatened square as a non-action, fire a single shot as a standard action, drop your bow as a free action, and draw a sword as a move-equivalent action. I believe posters were specifying a full attack to illustrate that it's legal to make a full attack after taking a 5' step, so you get your whole attack and no AoO. The trick is actually to stay far enough back that you never get in melee range of someone, but failing that... keep moving. ;)
Dalton Onestone 11-17-04, 03:11 PM	It sounds as if Tumble continues to be a good skill -- when you can't move back any further, get past the guy and start retreating in the other direction. I wish one could feint with a bow at pointblank range. That feat should be available.
hullhawk 11-17-04, 05:15 PM	If you start of your turn next to an archer and you have a higher initiative. you can ready an action, the readied action will be to take a 5 foot step forward in response to a 5 foot step from the archer. If the archer attempts to use a bow then he provokes an AoO. if he moves more than 5 feet and attempts to use the bow he still provokes the attack of oppurtunity...
CruelDM 11-17-04, 07:20 PM	If you want, you can take a 5' step back to get out of a threatened square as a free action, fire a single shot as a standard action, drop your bow as a free action, and draw a sword as a move-equivalent action. It doesnt work quite this way, firstly, drawing a weapon is a move equivelant action. The only time drawing a weapon is a free action is with the quick draw feat. If you have a +1 BAB you can draw a weapon as part of a move, but without quick draw you have to draw the weapon when you move back 5 feet. So, if you took the step back to avoid an AoO you have to drop the bow and draw a weapon then, therefore you dont have the bow out anymore to take 1 shot. You also cannot take a 5 foot step in any round you move and a 5 foot step is not a free action. You could, however, take a step back, drop the bow, draw the sword and ready an attack with the trigger "if he comes into melee range". Edit: Actually, after reading the quote again, it would work the way the quote described. You could do it either way depending on the circumstances.
Kyaran 11-17-04, 09:27 PM	Note: Snipped a 5 foot step is not a free actionYou're right... it's not an action at all! I always forget that. ;) It's a special action, allowed only once per round, and not if you take another move action that same round. (Move action being distinct from a move-equivalent action.) Also, I'm not sure if you were implying so or not, but you can not draw a weapon as part of a 5' step. You can draw a weapon (presuming +1 BAB) as part of a normal move action. This precludes any other actions, such as running, charging, tumbling (but you can tumble for part of a normal move then draw a weapon during a different part of the normal move... I think), or 5' stepping.