Ape with Club [Archive] - Wizards Community

Ape with Club [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tony111
03-24-05, 07:26 PM If I wildshape into ape, I do not lose the use of feats, correct?

If so then could I not drop my club, cast spikes on it, wildshape into an ape, and then pick up the club for use during the day. After all, I still have two hands with opposable thumbs and use of simple weapon proficiency.

Does this work by RAW? (Yes, I know it is cheesy).

Tony
Moon-Lancer
03-24-05, 07:48 PM if you had natural spell you could just hold the club wildshape and cast it on the club and use it.

I dont like it but alot of people play with legondary ape form retaining use of iteams becuse the anatomy is similar.
Thorak
03-24-05, 08:50 PM If it were me, you could certainly use a weapon. Apes have opposable thumbs. However, a lot of people have apes able to wear armor. I draw the line there. Apes aren't humanoid. Their legs are a lot shorter and much differently set up, because they primarily walk with the assistance of their arms, and their upper body is also vastly out of proportion, with a much bigger chest and bigger and longer arms. It's just too big a difference.
Nayk
03-24-05, 09:40 PM Rules as written allow it.

I don't think that rules as intended would. Because I don't think that they had a vision of Legendary Ape wearing Armor and Weapons be the concept of the druid at high levels when they wrote the wildshape class feature.

Maybe they should have added something similar to:
Wildshaping is a question of being closer to nature animals. Thus druids loose proficiency in weapons and armors when wildshaping because they have more animal instincts. That's the same reason why a druids can use all natural form attacks of a chosen animal.

That's make sense to me at least!

Y@
simen_88
03-25-05, 11:49 AM If it were me, you could certainly use a weapon. Apes have opposable thumbs. However, a lot of people have apes able to wear armor. I draw the line there. Apes aren't humanoid. Their legs are a lot shorter and much differently set up, because they primarily walk with the assistance of their arms, and their upper body is also vastly out of proportion, with a much bigger chest and bigger and longer arms. It's just too big a difference.
I agree with this, mostly. But, if I remember correctly, magic armor changes itself to fit the wearer. Would it be unreasonable to assume that an ape could wear magic armor?
psionichamster
03-25-05, 01:04 PM if it had the wild enhancement ability, then it would change with you, no matter what kind of critter you turn into

namaste,
the hamster
yonman
03-25-05, 01:47 PM If so then could I not drop my club, cast spikes on it, wildshape into an ape, and then pick up the club for use during the day.

Which Spell are you talking about when you say that you're casting spikes on the club? Spike growth?
Pinky's brain
03-25-05, 02:04 PM A spell from complete divine.

In principle magic armor does not magically resize to fit ... but skip's polymorph rules do make armor automagically resize, so if you use those you should be safe. Otherwise you will need wild or beastskin armor.

My DM doesnt allow armor to automatically resize with polymorph/wildshape, he also thinks magic items dont magically resize (he thinks they are just adjusted with straps and such). One of these days I think I can convince him otherwise since it just cannot work that way with rings though.
Demon Lightfoot
03-25-05, 02:12 PM If it were me, you could certainly use a weapon. Apes have opposable thumbs. However, a lot of people have apes able to wear armor. I draw the line there. Apes aren't humanoid. Their legs are a lot shorter and much differently set up, because they primarily walk with the assistance of their arms, and their upper body is also vastly out of proportion, with a much bigger chest and bigger and longer arms. It's just too big a difference.

Fine, you tell Urko he can't wear armor, I double-dog dares ya! :D
Tony Vargas
03-25-05, 02:27 PM I think the usual thing with polymorph, is that if the form assumed normally uses equipment, the equipment stays (changing size to fit), otherwise, it 'merges' and becomes non-functional (then there's the Wild armor enchantment). I don't think that any form a druid can assume normally uses equipment, certainly no animal does.

I assume that's why the OP was talking about dropping the club before changing.

As a DM, that'd make me think twice about allowing the club. Sure, an ape has oppossable thumbs, but it also knuckle-walks - standing on two legs is a tad precarious for them, and doing so and swinging a weapon would really be pushing it. At minimum, I might inflict the equivalent of a non-proficiency penalty. I might also consider disallowing full attacks or movement-and-attacking - I guess, in effect, making a single attack with the club a full round action - just because of the difficulty of a not-quite-true-biped wielding a weapon.
Demon Lightfoot
03-25-05, 02:50 PM OK, let's see:

I've seen film of gorillas in the wild charging and making threat-displays and they do reasonably well on two legs; it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to imagine one holding and using a club.

Chimps also make extensive (for non-humans, anyway) use of tools, particularly for cracking nuts (via stones or short, clubby bits of wood) and they also "display", frequently dragging and waving branches and other objects (Jane Goodall relates how a chimp once used empty gasoline-cans that he swiped from the camp to put on a truly loud and ferocious show and thus managed to snag Top Ape position in the tribe).

Also, apes are fairly adaptable; Ms. Goodall also noted a chimp who lost the use of one of his arms due to polio who was able to get around; bonobos are, IIRC, pretty used to walking upright as a matter of course and trained apes regularly walk upright without resorting to knuckle-walking.

I'd be willing to let a humanoid biped wildshaped into ape form get away with it.

Does the RAW state that apes are of neccessity knuckle-walkers? :thinks:
Thorak
03-25-05, 04:46 PM I agree with this, mostly. But, if I remember correctly, magic armor changes itself to fit the wearer. Would it be unreasonable to assume that an ape could wear magic armor?
The armor changes size. There are limits to how much it changes shape. And my point was that there has to be a line drawn somewhere between humanoid types and any other four-limbed creatures. Given that there are significant differences in body shape between apes and humanoids, even big ones like Ogres, I would draw the line at apes.

Of course an Ape can wear armor. Just needs to be armor specially designed for an Ape. Heck, a Dog can wear armor, if you get it properly made. But there's a point where magical armor stops reshaping.

Yes, gorillas can walk on two legs. But it's not typical for them. And their legs and arms are built to reflect that difference. Much shorter legs, feet with "thumbs", etc, etc. These kinds of big differences, IMHO, make the difference. Apes tread the line between full bipeds and quadrupeds, but they tread the line; they're neither one nor the other. Besides, if you allow apes to wear armor because they can walk on two legs, you gotta allow bears. THey can too, though a little less proficiently than apes. And dogs can be trained too, a little worse than bears. See the slippery slope?
Nom
03-25-05, 05:58 PM General rules on magic item sizing:

DMG pg 213: we see from this that armour and weapons have a size category, but beyond this broad category most items will resize a bit. Fat/skinny tall/short elf/dwarf (all Medium) distinctions won't cause the armour to "not fit", unless not fitting is a specific design property of the armour.

That said, both DMG pg 217 and DMG pg 223 have a discussion of armour for unusual creatures, being defined as anything nonhumanoid or not of Small or Medium size (or both). Quite clearly the rules do not expect normal armour, weapons (and possibly other items) to resize across size or shape categories.
Bak
03-26-05, 02:56 AM I think the usual thing with polymorph, is that if the form assumed normally uses equipment, the equipment stays (changing size to fit), otherwise, it 'merges' and becomes non-functional (then there's the Wild armor enchantment). I don't think that any form a druid can assume normally uses equipment, certainly no animal does.

I assume that's why the OP was talking about dropping the club before changing.
One interesting issue: EVERY animal has neck, so all of them are able to wear Amulet of something, and Wildshape or Polymorph into animal will not make your amulet become non-function, right?

If it is the case, why the book Master of the Wild (3.0 book) bother to introduce Wilding Clasp? It introduced the clasp because Wildshape into animal will make your amulet merging.

Therefore, when you Wildshape or Polymorph, all your equipment will merge.

Bak
Xeviat-DM
03-26-05, 03:12 AM When I'm done with my spell re-writes that I've been working on for the last couple of months, I'm going to take some time to closely analyze the druid's wildshape and polymorph in general. Part of me questions how much use wildshape is to a druid if it nulls all of your equipment, especially considering how much resources a character has invested into their equipment.

Perhaps this was covered by the rules, though. Perhaps the equipment resizing for polymorph should only be within like shapes; Human/Monstrous Humanoid/Giant should all be considered the same shape. Anything else and your stuff murges.

And it is true that the wild clasp and certain armor enhancements were made for the druid for a reason. Even though I'd like to exploit the rules and say your equipment changes shape when you turn into an ape, I don't think that was the original intention. Though that does say something for turning into "weaker" forms when you're a higher level; there's little reason to.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tony111 03-24-05, 07:26 PM	If I wildshape into ape, I do not lose the use of feats, correct? If so then could I not drop my club, cast spikes on it, wildshape into an ape, and then pick up the club for use during the day. After all, I still have two hands with opposable thumbs and use of simple weapon proficiency. Does this work by RAW? (Yes, I know it is cheesy). Tony
Moon-Lancer 03-24-05, 07:48 PM	if you had natural spell you could just hold the club wildshape and cast it on the club and use it. I dont like it but alot of people play with legondary ape form retaining use of iteams becuse the anatomy is similar.
Thorak 03-24-05, 08:50 PM	If it were me, you could certainly use a weapon. Apes have opposable thumbs. However, a lot of people have apes able to wear armor. I draw the line there. Apes aren't humanoid. Their legs are a lot shorter and much differently set up, because they primarily walk with the assistance of their arms, and their upper body is also vastly out of proportion, with a much bigger chest and bigger and longer arms. It's just too big a difference.
Nayk 03-24-05, 09:40 PM	Rules as written allow it. I don't think that rules as intended would. Because I don't think that they had a vision of Legendary Ape wearing Armor and Weapons be the concept of the druid at high levels when they wrote the wildshape class feature. Maybe they should have added something similar to: Wildshaping is a question of being closer to nature animals. Thus druids loose proficiency in weapons and armors when wildshaping because they have more animal instincts. That's the same reason why a druids can use all natural form attacks of a chosen animal. That's make sense to me at least! Y@
simen_88 03-25-05, 11:49 AM	If it were me, you could certainly use a weapon. Apes have opposable thumbs. However, a lot of people have apes able to wear armor. I draw the line there. Apes aren't humanoid. Their legs are a lot shorter and much differently set up, because they primarily walk with the assistance of their arms, and their upper body is also vastly out of proportion, with a much bigger chest and bigger and longer arms. It's just too big a difference. I agree with this, mostly. But, if I remember correctly, magic armor changes itself to fit the wearer. Would it be unreasonable to assume that an ape could wear magic armor?
psionichamster 03-25-05, 01:04 PM	if it had the wild enhancement ability, then it would change with you, no matter what kind of critter you turn into namaste, the hamster
yonman 03-25-05, 01:47 PM	If so then could I not drop my club, cast spikes on it, wildshape into an ape, and then pick up the club for use during the day. Which Spell are you talking about when you say that you're casting spikes on the club? Spike growth?
Pinky's brain 03-25-05, 02:04 PM	A spell from complete divine. In principle magic armor does not magically resize to fit ... but skip's polymorph rules do make armor automagically resize, so if you use those you should be safe. Otherwise you will need wild or beastskin armor. My DM doesnt allow armor to automatically resize with polymorph/wildshape, he also thinks magic items dont magically resize (he thinks they are just adjusted with straps and such). One of these days I think I can convince him otherwise since it just cannot work that way with rings though.
Demon Lightfoot 03-25-05, 02:12 PM	If it were me, you could certainly use a weapon. Apes have opposable thumbs. However, a lot of people have apes able to wear armor. I draw the line there. Apes aren't humanoid. Their legs are a lot shorter and much differently set up, because they primarily walk with the assistance of their arms, and their upper body is also vastly out of proportion, with a much bigger chest and bigger and longer arms. It's just too big a difference. Fine, you tell Urko he can't wear armor, I double-dog dares ya! :D
Tony Vargas 03-25-05, 02:27 PM	I think the usual thing with polymorph, is that if the form assumed normally uses equipment, the equipment stays (changing size to fit), otherwise, it 'merges' and becomes non-functional (then there's the Wild armor enchantment). I don't think that any form a druid can assume normally uses equipment, certainly no animal does. I assume that's why the OP was talking about dropping the club before changing. As a DM, that'd make me think twice about allowing the club. Sure, an ape has oppossable thumbs, but it also knuckle-walks - standing on two legs is a tad precarious for them, and doing so and swinging a weapon would really be pushing it. At minimum, I might inflict the equivalent of a non-proficiency penalty. I might also consider disallowing full attacks or movement-and-attacking - I guess, in effect, making a single attack with the club a full round action - just because of the difficulty of a not-quite-true-biped wielding a weapon.
Demon Lightfoot 03-25-05, 02:50 PM	OK, let's see: I've seen film of gorillas in the wild charging and making threat-displays and they do reasonably well on two legs; it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to imagine one holding and using a club. Chimps also make extensive (for non-humans, anyway) use of tools, particularly for cracking nuts (via stones or short, clubby bits of wood) and they also "display", frequently dragging and waving branches and other objects (Jane Goodall relates how a chimp once used empty gasoline-cans that he swiped from the camp to put on a truly loud and ferocious show and thus managed to snag Top Ape position in the tribe). Also, apes are fairly adaptable; Ms. Goodall also noted a chimp who lost the use of one of his arms due to polio who was able to get around; bonobos are, IIRC, pretty used to walking upright as a matter of course and trained apes regularly walk upright without resorting to knuckle-walking. I'd be willing to let a humanoid biped wildshaped into ape form get away with it. Does the RAW state that apes are of neccessity knuckle-walkers? :thinks:
Thorak 03-25-05, 04:46 PM	I agree with this, mostly. But, if I remember correctly, magic armor changes itself to fit the wearer. Would it be unreasonable to assume that an ape could wear magic armor? The armor changes size. There are limits to how much it changes shape. And my point was that there has to be a line drawn somewhere between humanoid types and any other four-limbed creatures. Given that there are significant differences in body shape between apes and humanoids, even big ones like Ogres, I would draw the line at apes. Of course an Ape can wear armor. Just needs to be armor specially designed for an Ape. Heck, a Dog can wear armor, if you get it properly made. But there's a point where magical armor stops reshaping. Yes, gorillas can walk on two legs. But it's not typical for them. And their legs and arms are built to reflect that difference. Much shorter legs, feet with "thumbs", etc, etc. These kinds of big differences, IMHO, make the difference. Apes tread the line between full bipeds and quadrupeds, but they tread the line; they're neither one nor the other. Besides, if you allow apes to wear armor because they can walk on two legs, you gotta allow bears. THey can too, though a little less proficiently than apes. And dogs can be trained too, a little worse than bears. See the slippery slope?
Nom 03-25-05, 05:58 PM	General rules on magic item sizing: DMG pg 213: we see from this that armour and weapons have a size category, but beyond this broad category most items will resize a bit. Fat/skinny tall/short elf/dwarf (all Medium) distinctions won't cause the armour to "not fit", unless not fitting is a specific design property of the armour. That said, both DMG pg 217 and DMG pg 223 have a discussion of armour for unusual creatures, being defined as anything nonhumanoid or not of Small or Medium size (or both). Quite clearly the rules do not expect normal armour, weapons (and possibly other items) to resize across size or shape categories.
Bak 03-26-05, 02:56 AM	I think the usual thing with polymorph, is that if the form assumed normally uses equipment, the equipment stays (changing size to fit), otherwise, it 'merges' and becomes non-functional (then there's the Wild armor enchantment). I don't think that any form a druid can assume normally uses equipment, certainly no animal does. I assume that's why the OP was talking about dropping the club before changing. One interesting issue: EVERY animal has neck, so all of them are able to wear Amulet of something, and Wildshape or Polymorph into animal will not make your amulet become non-function, right? If it is the case, why the book Master of the Wild (3.0 book) bother to introduce Wilding Clasp? It introduced the clasp because Wildshape into animal will make your amulet merging. Therefore, when you Wildshape or Polymorph, all your equipment will merge. Bak
Xeviat-DM 03-26-05, 03:12 AM	When I'm done with my spell re-writes that I've been working on for the last couple of months, I'm going to take some time to closely analyze the druid's wildshape and polymorph in general. Part of me questions how much use wildshape is to a druid if it nulls all of your equipment, especially considering how much resources a character has invested into their equipment. Perhaps this was covered by the rules, though. Perhaps the equipment resizing for polymorph should only be within like shapes; Human/Monstrous Humanoid/Giant should all be considered the same shape. Anything else and your stuff murges. And it is true that the wild clasp and certain armor enhancements were made for the druid for a reason. Even though I'd like to exploit the rules and say your equipment changes shape when you turn into an ape, I don't think that was the original intention. Though that does say something for turning into "weaker" forms when you're a higher level; there's little reason to.