Arcane Spell Failure [Archive] - Wizards Community

Arcane Spell Failure [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rustmonster
05-02-07, 10:16 PM Isn't it a little bit odd that buckler, which is 5 lbs I beleive, and is worn on the arm, thus freeing fingers and hands, has an arcane spell failure chance when using spells with somatic components, while weilding a spear, which is two handed and around 6 lbs, does not? The buckler interferes much less in arm and hand movments than the spear, or at least should because of less weight and free hands, but still has that penalty. Does anyone have an idea why this might be? I would love to equip my sorcerer with a buckler to increase his AC.
wal9000
05-02-07, 10:22 PM Isn't it a little bit odd that buckler, which is 5 lbs I beleive, and is worn on the arm, thus freeing fingers and hands, has an arcane spell failure chance when using spells with somatic components, while weilding a spear, which is two handed and around 6 lbs, does not? The buckler interferes much less in arm and hand movments than the spear, or at least should because of less weight and free hands, but still has that penalty. Does anyone have an idea why this might be? I would love to equip my sorcerer with a buckler to increase his AC.

I don't have the rules on hand, but IIRC you can't cast spells with a somatic component at all unless you have a hand free. If you're wielding a two handed weapon you don't have a hand free.

Also, I'm pretty sure a mithral buckler (if you can afford it, probably not an option at low levels) doesn't have an ASF, nor does it have a check penalty, meaning that it can be used by an unproficient character with no downside.
wal9000
05-02-07, 10:28 PM Here's the rule:

Somatic (S): A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component.

Though I don't see the sense in having an ASF for a buckler on one arm and the other hand free if there's no penalty for holding a battleaxe (which weighs more and requires the entire arm and hand to use). Is there a more sensible rule that I'm missing somewhere?
Rustmonster
05-02-07, 10:30 PM Mithril buckler does sound like an option, but I'd have to wait a while. I'm also assuming for a two handed weapon you can momentarily release one end (example, stand spear up in one hand).

I've just always concidered it a little silly that it reduces your ability to use somatic when it doesn't take a hand, while a large weapon wouldn't. It's really a non-by-the-book kind of thought, but just wanted to see others opinion.
Nephlite
05-02-07, 11:05 PM Mithril buckler does sound like an option, but I'd have to wait a while. I'm also assuming for a two handed weapon you can momentarily release one end (example, stand spear up in one hand).

I've just always concidered it a little silly that it reduces your ability to use somatic when it doesn't take a hand, while a large weapon wouldn't. It's really a non-by-the-book kind of thought, but just wanted to see others opinion.

2 handed weapons do: you can houserule that you can release your hand to cast but that adding rules.
Normally you can't. Except with a Bow since you hold a bow with one hand and shoot with the other (don't shoot this round and your hand is free).
darkeness
05-02-07, 11:34 PM 2 handed weapons do: you can houserule that you can release your hand to cast but that adding rules.

I think in FAQ they said you could do just that, although FAQ is not RAW.

BTW, when you try to apply logic to D&D rules you almost always come up wanting. It's always been that way and I don't see it changing any time soon. Just move on and enjoy the game for what it is.
tarkin
05-03-07, 11:02 AM RAW means Rules as Written. The FAQ is written by WoTC, and clearly contains rules not listed elsewhere as well as answers to questions

FAQ is just as much RAW as anything else out there.

Claiming otherwise is foolishness. There is not big stamp owned by WoTC with the words "RAW approved" or "Official" on it. If WoTC employees writes something and WoTC publishes it under the WoTC brand, without saying "Variant/Optional/Houserule" then it is RAW, whether it comes in a book or a download.

Buckler shields are strapped to your forearm.

Some people can think of this as being a shield that goes is strapped to the middle of your foream and extends from your elbow to your wrist. That is what the poster is thinking it is.

But such a thing would be called a BRACER.

Those people with a little bit more knowledge know that a Buckler shield, while strapped to your forearm is strapped near the wrist and extends out BEYOND the hand.

Basically think of it as being slightly smaller than a light shield and without the grip for your hand.

This lets you hold things in your hand, but still interefers with the use of the hand.

Hence the penalties to attacking and the inability to do spell components.
Rustmonster
05-03-07, 03:46 PM RAW means Rules as Written. The FAQ is written by WoTC, and clearly contains rules not listed elsewhere as well as answers to questions

FAQ is just as much RAW as anything else out there.

Claiming otherwise is foolishness. There is not big stamp owned by WoTC with the words "RAW approved" or "Official" on it. If WoTC employees writes something and WoTC publishes it under the WoTC brand, without saying "Variant/Optional/Houserule" then it is RAW, whether it comes in a book or a download.

Buckler shields are strapped to your forearm.

Some people can think of this as being a shield that goes is strapped to the middle of your foream and extends from your elbow to your wrist. That is what the poster is thinking it is.

But such a thing would be called a BRACER.

Those people with a little bit more knowledge know that a Buckler shield, while strapped to your forearm is strapped near the wrist and extends out BEYOND the hand.

Basically think of it as being slightly smaller than a light shield and without the grip for your hand.

This lets you hold things in your hand, but still interefers with the use of the hand.

Hence the penalties to attacking and the inability to do spell components.

Yes, I can understand that. I'm just saying that in the same way a weapon could tie up one of your hands, even more so than a DnD buckler, as the buckler still lets you weild a weapon. How about if you didn't weild a weapon in you other hand? then you would have one completly free hand, which is apperantly all you need to use a somatic component, as can be shown from no arcane spell failure from weilding a one handed weapon.
kalyb
05-03-07, 03:56 PM IMHO if you are wielding a two-handed weapon...you can not cast any spell requiring a somatic component. Period. A buckler, while allowing you to hold something in your hand, hampers the precise movements required to cast the spell. This is the reason for the arcane spell failure. I would probably allow a character to use a move action to ready a two-handed weapon (standing the spear up, for example), before casting the spell, and another move action to ready it for use again before attacking. Seems fair to me.
Sylvaroth
05-03-07, 03:59 PM As was said before, having one free hand (free in the sense of unhindered in its movement) does allow you to cast spells with somatic components. It is no real stretch of imagination, that a spellcaster having a buckler strapped to his arm and wielding, e.g a spear or quarterstaff, would be able to hold the weapon with his 'buckler hand', while casting the spell with his now free hand.
Loki5654
05-03-07, 04:05 PM FAQ is just as much RAW as anything else out there.
I have to disagree with you there. The FAQ is not RAW for a few reasons.

Firstly, they are not rules. They are interpretations of the rules. The fact that they are interpretations made by one person who has little to no oversight, is frequently wrong, and often gives contradictory answers is immaterial to my argument, but worth mentioning.

Secondly, just because they are official does not make them rules. After all, the artwork in the books is "official" (having been published under the WoTC label, by your definition) but that doesn't make the art into rules. Just because something is published by WoTC doesn't make it RAW.

The only sources that are RAW are the books themselves, the Errata, and (unfortunately) WoTC Customer Service.
Vharuck
05-03-07, 04:09 PM IMHO if you are wielding a two-handed weapon...you can not cast any spell requiring a somatic component. Period. A buckler, while allowing you to hold something in your hand, hampers the precise movements required to cast the spell. This is the reason for the arcane spell failure. I would probably allow a character to use a move action to ready a two-handed weapon (standing the spear up, for example), before casting the spell, and another move action to ready it for use again before attacking. Seems fair to me.

Doesn't this then negate the idea of a wizard with a quarterstaff casting a spell?
mvincent
05-03-07, 05:20 PM The FAQ is not RAW for a few reasons.I believe this is not entirely correct. The FAQ (like any other supplement) can present new rules, and it sometimes does so.

Same with the RotG or any of the add-on books. Since it presents rules, and it is written, it could technically be referred to as 'Rules As Written' (even though most people are actually referring to the 'core rules' when they use the term RAW). This is purely semantic though.

Note though:
1) The RPGA follows the FAQ (i.e. treats it the same as the core rules).
2) The FAQ is sometimes more thought out than the core rules (only because it is intended to address deficiencies and/or ambiguities in the core rules).
3) The FAQ can't possibly make everyone happy (i.e. agree with any given ruling).
4) I've studied probably more than anyone else (including the author) and I can tell you that it's far better having the FAQ around to resolve issues than not.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rustmonster 05-02-07, 10:16 PM	Isn't it a little bit odd that buckler, which is 5 lbs I beleive, and is worn on the arm, thus freeing fingers and hands, has an arcane spell failure chance when using spells with somatic components, while weilding a spear, which is two handed and around 6 lbs, does not? The buckler interferes much less in arm and hand movments than the spear, or at least should because of less weight and free hands, but still has that penalty. Does anyone have an idea why this might be? I would love to equip my sorcerer with a buckler to increase his AC.
wal9000 05-02-07, 10:22 PM	Isn't it a little bit odd that buckler, which is 5 lbs I beleive, and is worn on the arm, thus freeing fingers and hands, has an arcane spell failure chance when using spells with somatic components, while weilding a spear, which is two handed and around 6 lbs, does not? The buckler interferes much less in arm and hand movments than the spear, or at least should because of less weight and free hands, but still has that penalty. Does anyone have an idea why this might be? I would love to equip my sorcerer with a buckler to increase his AC. I don't have the rules on hand, but IIRC you can't cast spells with a somatic component at all unless you have a hand free. If you're wielding a two handed weapon you don't have a hand free. Also, I'm pretty sure a mithral buckler (if you can afford it, probably not an option at low levels) doesn't have an ASF, nor does it have a check penalty, meaning that it can be used by an unproficient character with no downside.
wal9000 05-02-07, 10:28 PM	Here's the rule: Somatic (S): A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component. Though I don't see the sense in having an ASF for a buckler on one arm and the other hand free if there's no penalty for holding a battleaxe (which weighs more and requires the entire arm and hand to use). Is there a more sensible rule that I'm missing somewhere?
Rustmonster 05-02-07, 10:30 PM	Mithril buckler does sound like an option, but I'd have to wait a while. I'm also assuming for a two handed weapon you can momentarily release one end (example, stand spear up in one hand). I've just always concidered it a little silly that it reduces your ability to use somatic when it doesn't take a hand, while a large weapon wouldn't. It's really a non-by-the-book kind of thought, but just wanted to see others opinion.
Nephlite 05-02-07, 11:05 PM	Mithril buckler does sound like an option, but I'd have to wait a while. I'm also assuming for a two handed weapon you can momentarily release one end (example, stand spear up in one hand). I've just always concidered it a little silly that it reduces your ability to use somatic when it doesn't take a hand, while a large weapon wouldn't. It's really a non-by-the-book kind of thought, but just wanted to see others opinion. 2 handed weapons do: you can houserule that you can release your hand to cast but that adding rules. Normally you can't. Except with a Bow since you hold a bow with one hand and shoot with the other (don't shoot this round and your hand is free).
darkeness 05-02-07, 11:34 PM	2 handed weapons do: you can houserule that you can release your hand to cast but that adding rules. I think in FAQ they said you could do just that, although FAQ is not RAW. BTW, when you try to apply logic to D&D rules you almost always come up wanting. It's always been that way and I don't see it changing any time soon. Just move on and enjoy the game for what it is.
tarkin 05-03-07, 11:02 AM	RAW means Rules as Written. The FAQ is written by WoTC, and clearly contains rules not listed elsewhere as well as answers to questions FAQ is just as much RAW as anything else out there. Claiming otherwise is foolishness. There is not big stamp owned by WoTC with the words "RAW approved" or "Official" on it. If WoTC employees writes something and WoTC publishes it under the WoTC brand, without saying "Variant/Optional/Houserule" then it is RAW, whether it comes in a book or a download. Buckler shields are strapped to your forearm. Some people can think of this as being a shield that goes is strapped to the middle of your foream and extends from your elbow to your wrist. That is what the poster is thinking it is. But such a thing would be called a BRACER. Those people with a little bit more knowledge know that a Buckler shield, while strapped to your forearm is strapped near the wrist and extends out BEYOND the hand. Basically think of it as being slightly smaller than a light shield and without the grip for your hand. This lets you hold things in your hand, but still interefers with the use of the hand. Hence the penalties to attacking and the inability to do spell components.
Rustmonster 05-03-07, 03:46 PM	RAW means Rules as Written. The FAQ is written by WoTC, and clearly contains rules not listed elsewhere as well as answers to questions FAQ is just as much RAW as anything else out there. Claiming otherwise is foolishness. There is not big stamp owned by WoTC with the words "RAW approved" or "Official" on it. If WoTC employees writes something and WoTC publishes it under the WoTC brand, without saying "Variant/Optional/Houserule" then it is RAW, whether it comes in a book or a download. Buckler shields are strapped to your forearm. Some people can think of this as being a shield that goes is strapped to the middle of your foream and extends from your elbow to your wrist. That is what the poster is thinking it is. But such a thing would be called a BRACER. Those people with a little bit more knowledge know that a Buckler shield, while strapped to your forearm is strapped near the wrist and extends out BEYOND the hand. Basically think of it as being slightly smaller than a light shield and without the grip for your hand. This lets you hold things in your hand, but still interefers with the use of the hand. Hence the penalties to attacking and the inability to do spell components. Yes, I can understand that. I'm just saying that in the same way a weapon could tie up one of your hands, even more so than a DnD buckler, as the buckler still lets you weild a weapon. How about if you didn't weild a weapon in you other hand? then you would have one completly free hand, which is apperantly all you need to use a somatic component, as can be shown from no arcane spell failure from weilding a one handed weapon.
kalyb 05-03-07, 03:56 PM	IMHO if you are wielding a two-handed weapon...you can not cast any spell requiring a somatic component. Period. A buckler, while allowing you to hold something in your hand, hampers the precise movements required to cast the spell. This is the reason for the arcane spell failure. I would probably allow a character to use a move action to ready a two-handed weapon (standing the spear up, for example), before casting the spell, and another move action to ready it for use again before attacking. Seems fair to me.
Sylvaroth 05-03-07, 03:59 PM	As was said before, having one free hand (free in the sense of unhindered in its movement) does allow you to cast spells with somatic components. It is no real stretch of imagination, that a spellcaster having a buckler strapped to his arm and wielding, e.g a spear or quarterstaff, would be able to hold the weapon with his 'buckler hand', while casting the spell with his now free hand.
Loki5654 05-03-07, 04:05 PM	FAQ is just as much RAW as anything else out there. I have to disagree with you there. The FAQ is not RAW for a few reasons. Firstly, they are not rules. They are interpretations of the rules. The fact that they are interpretations made by one person who has little to no oversight, is frequently wrong, and often gives contradictory answers is immaterial to my argument, but worth mentioning. Secondly, just because they are official does not make them rules. After all, the artwork in the books is "official" (having been published under the WoTC label, by your definition) but that doesn't make the art into rules. Just because something is published by WoTC doesn't make it RAW. The only sources that are RAW are the books themselves, the Errata, and (unfortunately) WoTC Customer Service.
Vharuck 05-03-07, 04:09 PM	IMHO if you are wielding a two-handed weapon...you can not cast any spell requiring a somatic component. Period. A buckler, while allowing you to hold something in your hand, hampers the precise movements required to cast the spell. This is the reason for the arcane spell failure. I would probably allow a character to use a move action to ready a two-handed weapon (standing the spear up, for example), before casting the spell, and another move action to ready it for use again before attacking. Seems fair to me. Doesn't this then negate the idea of a wizard with a quarterstaff casting a spell?
mvincent 05-03-07, 05:20 PM	The FAQ is not RAW for a few reasons.I believe this is not entirely correct. The FAQ (like any other supplement) can present new rules, and it sometimes does so. Same with the RotG or any of the add-on books. Since it presents rules, and it is written, it could technically be referred to as 'Rules As Written' (even though most people are actually referring to the 'core rules' when they use the term RAW). This is purely semantic though. Note though: 1) The RPGA follows the FAQ (i.e. treats it the same as the core rules). 2) The FAQ is sometimes more thought out than the core rules (only because it is intended to address deficiencies and/or ambiguities in the core rules). 3) The FAQ can't possibly make everyone happy (i.e. agree with any given ruling). 4) I've studied probably more than anyone else (including the author) and I can tell you that it's far better having the FAQ around to resolve issues than not.