Archers and Threat zone [Archive] - Wizards Community

Archers and Threat zone [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
NinjaVulture
03-28-06, 06:03 AM I happen to the the unlucky DM of a rogue/ranger/order of the bow initiate player.

Who ever got the idea of putting archers in close combat?!?

I was wondering if there was any rules concerning archers and the areas they threaten.
My logical sense tells me that Archers don't threaten areas at all. You could safely sprint past one without him hitting you.
Order of the bow initiates have a feat that allows them to shoot without provoking attacks of opportunity. It doesn't say anything about attacking folks next to them. Do they threaten? Can they flank? Can they use sneak attack bonus with their bow if they flank an opponent? I ruled that he couldn't sneak and he wasn't pleased, but it makes absolutely no sense that you can dodge weave and stab your opponent at his most vulnerable with a bow.
I allowed him to be part of a flanking, but I think I will rule against it in future encounters.

If anybody can point to undebateable rules that allow an archer to flank and sneak, then I might just allow it despite my reluctance.
Ged Coldplain
03-28-06, 06:42 AM well, you can't threaten with only a ranged weapon...
so no flank, unless he is a monk to, then he can threaten with his feet or head.

but you can sneak attack with ranged weapons (30ft.) if the opponent is denied his dexterity bonus in some way, like if you feint in combat or similar.
MJ the Prophet
03-28-06, 06:55 AM Simple answer: No, he can't. Can't what, you ask? Pretty much everything you're afraid of.

When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner.
The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.
Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack...

So, barring spells/feats/class abilities that modify this (for example, he no longer provokes an AOO when using a ranged weapon in close combat once he is a 2nd level OotBI), he does not threaten with a bow, he does not flank with a bow, and if he is not within 30 ft and the opponent is not denied their Dex he does not sneak attack with a bow.
tarkin
03-28-06, 10:12 AM Note, prestige classes, like the Order of the Bow, sometimes offer special abilities that change the rules mentioned above.
mostholy2
03-28-06, 10:21 AM Another way to threaten with a bow would be to use the ranger/sorc/wiz spell "Arrowmind" from Complete Adventurer.
FLAvatar
03-28-06, 10:26 AM It is possible for an archer to threaten, but usually it doesn't involve their bow. They would have to rely on armor spikes, or that modification to bows (elvencrafted? from Races of the Wild) that lets them be used as a staff or club.
dvlsadvct
03-28-06, 11:27 AM The only ability I have ever come across that lets you flank with a ranged weapon is in the Whisperknife PrC.

Regardless of whether he could threaten with armorspikes(or the like) that is all he could attack with to get the flanking bonus. So no wearing armor spikes to threaten and attacking with his bow.
FLAvatar
03-28-06, 01:07 PM He can threaten with his spikes to give his ally the +2 and attack with his bow just fine, as long as he is willing to suck up the AOO.

In fact, if he was feeling wacky and had iterative attacks, he could even split the attacks between his spikes and his arrows. He obviously wouldn't count as flanking with his bowshots, by definition.
Krug_the_smasher
03-28-06, 01:31 PM well, i cant quite remeber where i found this, but it is a special attackhment to the bow, called a bow blade or something. it is pretty much a short sword that you strap on your bow, but needs EWP to use. I belive this would change the bow into a mele/ranged weapon. I dont know if it would allow you to threaten sqares, and get flanking bonuses, but it might be worth the try.
NinjaVulture
03-29-06, 02:25 AM Thank you guys ever so kindly!!!
I am glad to find that my gut feeling was right and I like the notion that if you put enough effort into it you can do anything. It is just a matter of piling up enough feats.
I am quite sure my players will not attempt this any day soon:)

till I end up in another fix.
Juca
03-29-06, 09:18 AM Well, actually there is an hability that let you threat with a bow when 10ft from the enemy, if I'm not wrong it is gained on the 6th level of the Prestige Class "Pearless Archer", from the FR Silver Marches Handbook.
Chathsolen
03-29-06, 10:14 AM it's a level 8 ability for the Peerless Archer

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
NinjaVulture 03-28-06, 06:03 AM	I happen to the the unlucky DM of a rogue/ranger/order of the bow initiate player. Who ever got the idea of putting archers in close combat?!? I was wondering if there was any rules concerning archers and the areas they threaten. My logical sense tells me that Archers don't threaten areas at all. You could safely sprint past one without him hitting you. Order of the bow initiates have a feat that allows them to shoot without provoking attacks of opportunity. It doesn't say anything about attacking folks next to them. Do they threaten? Can they flank? Can they use sneak attack bonus with their bow if they flank an opponent? I ruled that he couldn't sneak and he wasn't pleased, but it makes absolutely no sense that you can dodge weave and stab your opponent at his most vulnerable with a bow. I allowed him to be part of a flanking, but I think I will rule against it in future encounters. If anybody can point to undebateable rules that allow an archer to flank and sneak, then I might just allow it despite my reluctance.
Ged Coldplain 03-28-06, 06:42 AM	well, you can't threaten with only a ranged weapon... so no flank, unless he is a monk to, then he can threaten with his feet or head. but you can sneak attack with ranged weapons (30ft.) if the opponent is denied his dexterity bonus in some way, like if you feint in combat or similar.
MJ the Prophet 03-28-06, 06:55 AM	Simple answer: No, he can't. Can't what, you ask? Pretty much everything you're afraid of. When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner. The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet. You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack... So, barring spells/feats/class abilities that modify this (for example, he no longer provokes an AOO when using a ranged weapon in close combat once he is a 2nd level OotBI), he does not threaten with a bow, he does not flank with a bow, and if he is not within 30 ft and the opponent is not denied their Dex he does not sneak attack with a bow.
tarkin 03-28-06, 10:12 AM	Note, prestige classes, like the Order of the Bow, sometimes offer special abilities that change the rules mentioned above.
mostholy2 03-28-06, 10:21 AM	Another way to threaten with a bow would be to use the ranger/sorc/wiz spell "Arrowmind" from Complete Adventurer.
FLAvatar 03-28-06, 10:26 AM	It is possible for an archer to threaten, but usually it doesn't involve their bow. They would have to rely on armor spikes, or that modification to bows (elvencrafted? from Races of the Wild) that lets them be used as a staff or club.
dvlsadvct 03-28-06, 11:27 AM	The only ability I have ever come across that lets you flank with a ranged weapon is in the Whisperknife PrC. Regardless of whether he could threaten with armorspikes(or the like) that is all he could attack with to get the flanking bonus. So no wearing armor spikes to threaten and attacking with his bow.
FLAvatar 03-28-06, 01:07 PM	He can threaten with his spikes to give his ally the +2 and attack with his bow just fine, as long as he is willing to suck up the AOO. In fact, if he was feeling wacky and had iterative attacks, he could even split the attacks between his spikes and his arrows. He obviously wouldn't count as flanking with his bowshots, by definition.
Krug_the_smasher 03-28-06, 01:31 PM	well, i cant quite remeber where i found this, but it is a special attackhment to the bow, called a bow blade or something. it is pretty much a short sword that you strap on your bow, but needs EWP to use. I belive this would change the bow into a mele/ranged weapon. I dont know if it would allow you to threaten sqares, and get flanking bonuses, but it might be worth the try.
NinjaVulture 03-29-06, 02:25 AM	Thank you guys ever so kindly!!! I am glad to find that my gut feeling was right and I like the notion that if you put enough effort into it you can do anything. It is just a matter of piling up enough feats. I am quite sure my players will not attempt this any day soon:) till I end up in another fix.
Juca 03-29-06, 09:18 AM	Well, actually there is an hability that let you threat with a bow when 10ft from the enemy, if I'm not wrong it is gained on the 6th level of the Prestige Class "Pearless Archer", from the FR Silver Marches Handbook.
Chathsolen 03-29-06, 10:14 AM	it's a level 8 ability for the Peerless Archer