Archers get lots of attacks? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Archers get lots of attacks? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
1337Ninja
10-06-07, 05:28 PM I've heard that archers get an insane number of shots, which is what makes them good. However, I can't really see how. Rapid shot and splitting give you double +2 normal shots, but two-weapon fighters get double attacks, and melee damage is a lot easier to pump up. Any help?
yrogerg
10-06-07, 05:48 PM I've heard that archers get an insane number of shots, which is what makes them good. However, I can't really see how. Rapid shot and splitting give you double +2 normal shots, but two-weapon fighters get double attacks, and melee damage is a lot easier to pump up. Any help?

The thing is, you're pumping them up in different ways. The major advantage that archers have is stacking special weapon enhancements. Arrows are much cheaper than swords, so special materials are a great way to bypass DR, and loading up on +1 X-bane arrows is a great way to boost damage.
Jaxgaret
10-06-07, 05:53 PM If the Splitting enhancement is allowed (many DMs ban it or raise its cost), then archers do simply get more attacks than melee warriors like you stated.

Another part of the equation is that it is easier for an archer to set up full attacks or simply attack at all, thus garnering them more attacks overall over the course of battles. At least this was more of an advantage before Complete Champion introduced the Barbarian Pounce totem variant.
Dracomorph
10-06-07, 05:56 PM Ninja'ed!
Garonak
10-06-07, 06:31 PM BA: +16 - 4atks
Rapid shot: +1 atk
Splitting (this is discussable): x2 atks
Haste: - +1 atk
That's 11 attacks if you read the splitting enchantment in certain ways. In addition you could have twf and quicloading hand crossbows which will give you even more attacks.

As for overcoming DR, just ad the Force enchantment, it goes through anything.
With two lvls in Order of the Bow or 1 lvl in Exotic Weapon Master (given you're using an exotic weapon) you don't provoke aoo's while using ranged weapons. With the different bow blades and bayonets from Comp Scoundrel you still threaten in melee.

Conclusion: Yes ranged weapons can be better than melee, but it's harder to pump up the damage.
Krusk
10-06-07, 06:49 PM in addition you can add in manyshot and greater manyshot which while not additional attacks do launch more arrows. These additional arrows can trigger the X bane or whatever property more times.
BW0222
10-07-07, 02:38 PM 1337Ninja,

Both TWF and rapid shot give you an extra attack. However... with melee you need to be within 5' to get a full attack on something. If you need to close, need to move, drop the creature, etc. your additional attacks are wasted.

With archery, you don't need to spend move actions closing and if you drop something, you can fire at another target half-way across the room.

It isn't that you get more attacks... it is just that you have a much greater chance of getting all your attacks in.
tygreen101
10-07-07, 04:13 PM level 11 fighter who specializes in TWF

BAB-11 3 attacks with main hand
TWF 1 attack with off hand
imporved TWF +1 attack with off hand
greater TWF +1 attack with off hand weapon

6 attack total at 11th level

at level 16 he would get 4 attacks with his main hand and I would allow a Superior TWF to give him 4 attacks with his off hand which would get him up to 8 attacks.

I tell my mage(yes, I said tell cause no matter how nice a guy I am, I'm in the heat of battle here and I just found the BIG threat) to cast expeditious retreat on me (just in case the archer is 80ft away from me.) and I use sunder weapon on your all powerful bow. :D now I just have to wait for the next round to hit you. :P

every "ALL POWERFUL" build has a weakness.
Splitter
10-07-07, 04:15 PM Feeling a little behind the times here. Which book is the Splitting Enhancement in and what exactly does it do?

Thanks,
Splitter
1337Ninja
10-07-07, 04:53 PM IIRC it's a +3 bonus for a ranged weapon that causes every projectile it fires to split into two.
tygreen101
10-07-07, 04:56 PM IIRC it's a +3 bonus for a ranged weapon that causes every projectile it fires to split into two.

ahh.. what's IIRC? thanks.
InkBlot
10-07-07, 05:14 PM IIRC is "If I Remember Correctly."

I suppose it could also mean In Internet Relay Chat, but context suggests otherwise.
Garonak
10-07-07, 05:53 PM level 11 fighter who specializes in TWF

BAB-11 3 attacks with main hand
TWF 1 attack with off hand
imporved TWF +1 attack with off hand
greater TWF +1 attack with off hand weapon

6 attack total at 11th level

at level 16 he would get 4 attacks with his main hand and I would allow a Superior TWF to give him 4 attacks with his off hand which would get him up to 8 attacks.

I tell my mage(yes, I said tell cause no matter how nice a guy I am, I'm in the heat of battle here and I just found the BIG threat) to cast expeditious retreat on me (just in case the archer is 80ft away from me.) and I use sunder weapon on your all powerful bow. :D now I just have to wait for the next round to hit you. :P

every "ALL POWERFUL" build has a weakness.

You forgot that the archer has higher dex than you and wins initiative, and got of 11 arrows+ before you even got out of the nice little flat-footed situation you got yourself into.

Just to clarify, I prefer melee. This is to prove a point. If you make a statement on this forum that your char is the best, you can be damned sure that someone here will find someone much much better (I'm not saying that my build would beat yours either, it's all in the die anyway).
Kamin_Majere
10-07-07, 06:25 PM Also if you allow Dragon Magizine you can take the Targeteer fighter variant and stack up on another 2 arrows a turn

at 16th+ level you fire for
4 normal attacks
1 Rapid Shot
2 Hail of Arrows (class feature for targeteer)
x2 splitting

For a total of 14 arrows a turn. Its alot of shots, but nothing compared to the machine gun rogue. But you do get alot more range than most do. I think the archer i build at 12th level fires in like 253ft range increments.

The problem with archery is that you cant get your damage very high. The special arrows help alot, but if you ever encounter something with Damage reduction that you cant over come your sometimes lucky to get 1-3 points of damage an arrow.
tygreen101
10-07-07, 07:22 PM Just to clarify, I prefer melee. This is to prove a point. If you make a statement on this forum that your char is the best, you can be damned sure that someone here will find someone much much better (I'm not saying that my build would beat yours either, it's all in the die anyway).

personally? my favorite character would be a guy who melees but uses magic to both defend himself(abjurant champion)AND to attack with. unfortunately. there has only been one spell created (that I am aware of. please enlighten me of others) that allows you to melee with magic and keep the spell up longer than one round. and that is a 2nd level wu jen spell lightning blade. but I just don't like this spell. problably because I can put all my potential damage into one attack. eh.. some day I'll be able to make it work. some day...
Jaxgaret
10-07-07, 07:48 PM there has only been one spell created (that I am aware of. please enlighten me of others) that allows you to melee with magic and keep the spell up longer than one round.

Greater Magic Weapon comes to mind. Shillelagh. Greater Mighty Wallop. Etc.
tygreen101
10-07-07, 08:03 PM Greater Magic Weapon comes to mind. Shillelagh. Greater Mighty Wallop. Etc.

yes, but using greater magic weapon requires a weapon to empower. shillelah does as well. that would be like making shield improve a buckler and mage armor requiring you to wear leather. now you see what I'm talking about?
Jaxgaret
10-07-07, 08:07 PM yes, but using greater magic weapon requires a weapon to empower. shillelah does as well. that would be like making shield imprave a buckler and mage armor requiring you to wear leather. now you see what I'm talking about?

Oh you meant spells that create weapons.

There's Force Whip in CArc, and Thunderlance from FR, which is actually a good spell.

Shillelagh could be considered one too, since a Quarterstaff is just a stick that you pick up off the ground.
tygreen101
10-07-07, 08:14 PM Oh you meant spells that create weapons.

There's Force Whip in CArc, and Thunderlance from FR.

I have CArc. I'll have to look up Force Whip. and the Thunderlance? I haven't gotten an FR book since 3.0 which FR book is it in?
runestar
10-07-07, 09:31 PM If you use the spotting distance rules in the DMG, your party will typically encounter your foes quite a distance away. During the time it takes for a fighter to charge up to them or wait for them to approach you (typically 1-2 rounds), the archer can manage up to 2 rounds of full attacks.

Since they do not need to move up to their foes, they can consistently get in more attacks than melee combatants.:)
tyrecian
10-07-07, 10:04 PM You can solve the DR problem (somewhat) with an archer by dipping into elemental damage. Add +1d6 Fire, or some other variant. Aligned weapons are also nice, if you are expecting to fight your opposition :D

Flame arrows is a nice spell for archers, it is 3rd level arcane, and can help out tremendously (cheap scrolls, and it enchants 50 arrows, plus any enchants on bow add in as well)... if you have an arcane caster that can read scrolls :P

Melee do have the advantage of pumping up their melee attacks with both strength and Power Attack. The archer can use strength bows, and but power attacking is out for you... that isnt so bad though, as you will often hit many times more using your max bonus all the time.

Most games i GM, the archers (whatever their build, including warlocks) stay out of melee as much as possible, and gear themselves to do so (fly, combat control abilities, invis, etc.), meanwhile they take out the enemies they can (like clerics and wizards) while most tanks are in combat swinging their weapons around both PA'ing and expertising at the big bad DR monster, hoping the cleric buffed em up enough to hit with their negatives added in... :)
runestar
10-07-07, 10:16 PM Archers also have the advantage of being able to stack bow and arrow properties.

For example, their bow will likely have the holy, evil outsider and splitting weapon properties, enhanced to +5 via greater magic weapon. Their arrows should typically be made of the correct metal to overcome dr, and have the appropriate bane property. For example, cold iron arrows of chaotic outsider bane arrows for devils, and silver arrows of lawful outsider bane for devils.

This makes it cheaper for them to carry around a golf-bag of arrows, as opposed to a golf-bag of weapons for the fighter.:)
Garonak
10-08-07, 06:59 AM Archers also have the advantage of being able to stack bow and arrow properties.

For example, their bow will likely have the holy, evil outsider and splitting weapon properties, enhanced to +5 via greater magic weapon. Their arrows should typically be made of the correct metal to overcome dr, and have the appropriate bane property. For example, cold iron arrows of chaotic outsider bane arrows for devils, and silver arrows of lawful outsider bane for devils.

This makes it cheaper for them to carry around a golf-bag of arrows, as opposed to a golf-bag of weapons for the fighter.:)

Why bother with the golf bag? Just put Force on the Bow and all the arrows do force damage. There is to my knowledge nothing that force can't beat through.
runestar
10-08-07, 09:54 AM Force...? Where is this enchantment from?
lunavoco
10-08-07, 11:28 AM "Force...? Where is this enchantment from?"

Seconded, and followed shortly thereafter with:

"Which book is the Splitting Enhancement in"?
Empirate
10-08-07, 11:38 AM IIRC (look it up, it's somewhere farther up in this thread), Split Arrows is a spell in Champions of Ruin. It has been taken as a model for the Splitting Weapon Enchantment in Complete Warrior, but I could be mistaken on the latter.
There's an ammunition enchantment in Magic of Faerūn that changes an arrow or bolt into a bead of force. This only does 1 point of force damage regardless of other factors (i.e., 1 HP is the total damage of the projectile), but also casts Hold Monster on the creature struck.
Kamin_Majere
10-08-07, 12:25 PM I cant remember what book its out of but the "Force" weapon enchantment allows weapons to do an additional 1d6 points of force damage and has a chance to bring down force effects (such as shield and mage armor)

If i remember its a +2 adjustment to the weapon
Garonak
10-08-07, 01:52 PM It's a +2 enchantment from MIC p35. It doesn't give any additional damage, it just turns the ammunition into force.
lunavoco
10-09-07, 07:10 AM Alright, I have Complete Warrior open infront of me listing the magical weapon enhancements. They are as follows on page 134 - 135:

Blood-Seeking, +1
Deflecting, +1
Disarming, +2
Exit Wound, +2
Explosive, +2/+3
Knockback, +3
Last Resort, +1

Where is this Splitting weapon enhancement at again? I am in the right section, ya?
runestar
10-09-07, 08:51 AM Splitting is from champions of ruin. Any arrow you fire splits into 2. You can pretty much infer the in-game impact for yourself...:D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
1337Ninja 10-06-07, 05:28 PM	I've heard that archers get an insane number of shots, which is what makes them good. However, I can't really see how. Rapid shot and splitting give you double +2 normal shots, but two-weapon fighters get double attacks, and melee damage is a lot easier to pump up. Any help?
yrogerg 10-06-07, 05:48 PM	I've heard that archers get an insane number of shots, which is what makes them good. However, I can't really see how. Rapid shot and splitting give you double +2 normal shots, but two-weapon fighters get double attacks, and melee damage is a lot easier to pump up. Any help? The thing is, you're pumping them up in different ways. The major advantage that archers have is stacking special weapon enhancements. Arrows are much cheaper than swords, so special materials are a great way to bypass DR, and loading up on +1 X-bane arrows is a great way to boost damage.
Jaxgaret 10-06-07, 05:53 PM	If the Splitting enhancement is allowed (many DMs ban it or raise its cost), then archers do simply get more attacks than melee warriors like you stated. Another part of the equation is that it is easier for an archer to set up full attacks or simply attack at all, thus garnering them more attacks overall over the course of battles. At least this was more of an advantage before Complete Champion introduced the Barbarian Pounce totem variant.
Dracomorph 10-06-07, 05:56 PM	Ninja'ed!
Garonak 10-06-07, 06:31 PM	BA: +16 - 4atks Rapid shot: +1 atk Splitting (this is discussable): x2 atks Haste: - +1 atk That's 11 attacks if you read the splitting enchantment in certain ways. In addition you could have twf and quicloading hand crossbows which will give you even more attacks. As for overcoming DR, just ad the Force enchantment, it goes through anything. With two lvls in Order of the Bow or 1 lvl in Exotic Weapon Master (given you're using an exotic weapon) you don't provoke aoo's while using ranged weapons. With the different bow blades and bayonets from Comp Scoundrel you still threaten in melee. Conclusion: Yes ranged weapons can be better than melee, but it's harder to pump up the damage.
Krusk 10-06-07, 06:49 PM	in addition you can add in manyshot and greater manyshot which while not additional attacks do launch more arrows. These additional arrows can trigger the X bane or whatever property more times.
BW0222 10-07-07, 02:38 PM	1337Ninja, Both TWF and rapid shot give you an extra attack. However... with melee you need to be within 5' to get a full attack on something. If you need to close, need to move, drop the creature, etc. your additional attacks are wasted. With archery, you don't need to spend move actions closing and if you drop something, you can fire at another target half-way across the room. It isn't that you get more attacks... it is just that you have a much greater chance of getting all your attacks in.
tygreen101 10-07-07, 04:13 PM	level 11 fighter who specializes in TWF BAB-11 3 attacks with main hand TWF 1 attack with off hand imporved TWF +1 attack with off hand greater TWF +1 attack with off hand weapon 6 attack total at 11th level at level 16 he would get 4 attacks with his main hand and I would allow a Superior TWF to give him 4 attacks with his off hand which would get him up to 8 attacks. I tell my mage(yes, I said tell cause no matter how nice a guy I am, I'm in the heat of battle here and I just found the BIG threat) to cast expeditious retreat on me (just in case the archer is 80ft away from me.) and I use sunder weapon on your all powerful bow. :D now I just have to wait for the next round to hit you. :P every "ALL POWERFUL" build has a weakness.
Splitter 10-07-07, 04:15 PM	Feeling a little behind the times here. Which book is the Splitting Enhancement in and what exactly does it do? Thanks, Splitter
1337Ninja 10-07-07, 04:53 PM	IIRC it's a +3 bonus for a ranged weapon that causes every projectile it fires to split into two.
tygreen101 10-07-07, 04:56 PM	IIRC it's a +3 bonus for a ranged weapon that causes every projectile it fires to split into two. ahh.. what's IIRC? thanks.
InkBlot 10-07-07, 05:14 PM	IIRC is "If I Remember Correctly." I suppose it could also mean In Internet Relay Chat, but context suggests otherwise.
Garonak 10-07-07, 05:53 PM	level 11 fighter who specializes in TWF BAB-11 3 attacks with main hand TWF 1 attack with off hand imporved TWF +1 attack with off hand greater TWF +1 attack with off hand weapon 6 attack total at 11th level at level 16 he would get 4 attacks with his main hand and I would allow a Superior TWF to give him 4 attacks with his off hand which would get him up to 8 attacks. I tell my mage(yes, I said tell cause no matter how nice a guy I am, I'm in the heat of battle here and I just found the BIG threat) to cast expeditious retreat on me (just in case the archer is 80ft away from me.) and I use sunder weapon on your all powerful bow. :D now I just have to wait for the next round to hit you. :P every "ALL POWERFUL" build has a weakness. You forgot that the archer has higher dex than you and wins initiative, and got of 11 arrows+ before you even got out of the nice little flat-footed situation you got yourself into. Just to clarify, I prefer melee. This is to prove a point. If you make a statement on this forum that your char is the best, you can be damned sure that someone here will find someone much much better (I'm not saying that my build would beat yours either, it's all in the die anyway).
Kamin_Majere 10-07-07, 06:25 PM	Also if you allow Dragon Magizine you can take the Targeteer fighter variant and stack up on another 2 arrows a turn at 16th+ level you fire for 4 normal attacks 1 Rapid Shot 2 Hail of Arrows (class feature for targeteer) x2 splitting For a total of 14 arrows a turn. Its alot of shots, but nothing compared to the machine gun rogue. But you do get alot more range than most do. I think the archer i build at 12th level fires in like 253ft range increments. The problem with archery is that you cant get your damage very high. The special arrows help alot, but if you ever encounter something with Damage reduction that you cant over come your sometimes lucky to get 1-3 points of damage an arrow.
tygreen101 10-07-07, 07:22 PM	Just to clarify, I prefer melee. This is to prove a point. If you make a statement on this forum that your char is the best, you can be damned sure that someone here will find someone much much better (I'm not saying that my build would beat yours either, it's all in the die anyway). personally? my favorite character would be a guy who melees but uses magic to both defend himself(abjurant champion)AND to attack with. unfortunately. there has only been one spell created (that I am aware of. please enlighten me of others) that allows you to melee with magic and keep the spell up longer than one round. and that is a 2nd level wu jen spell lightning blade. but I just don't like this spell. problably because I can put all my potential damage into one attack. eh.. some day I'll be able to make it work. some day...
Jaxgaret 10-07-07, 07:48 PM	there has only been one spell created (that I am aware of. please enlighten me of others) that allows you to melee with magic and keep the spell up longer than one round. Greater Magic Weapon comes to mind. Shillelagh. Greater Mighty Wallop. Etc.
tygreen101 10-07-07, 08:03 PM	Greater Magic Weapon comes to mind. Shillelagh. Greater Mighty Wallop. Etc. yes, but using greater magic weapon requires a weapon to empower. shillelah does as well. that would be like making shield improve a buckler and mage armor requiring you to wear leather. now you see what I'm talking about?
Jaxgaret 10-07-07, 08:07 PM	yes, but using greater magic weapon requires a weapon to empower. shillelah does as well. that would be like making shield imprave a buckler and mage armor requiring you to wear leather. now you see what I'm talking about? Oh you meant spells that create weapons. There's Force Whip in CArc, and Thunderlance from FR, which is actually a good spell. Shillelagh could be considered one too, since a Quarterstaff is just a stick that you pick up off the ground.
tygreen101 10-07-07, 08:14 PM	Oh you meant spells that create weapons. There's Force Whip in CArc, and Thunderlance from FR. I have CArc. I'll have to look up Force Whip. and the Thunderlance? I haven't gotten an FR book since 3.0 which FR book is it in?
runestar 10-07-07, 09:31 PM	If you use the spotting distance rules in the DMG, your party will typically encounter your foes quite a distance away. During the time it takes for a fighter to charge up to them or wait for them to approach you (typically 1-2 rounds), the archer can manage up to 2 rounds of full attacks. Since they do not need to move up to their foes, they can consistently get in more attacks than melee combatants.:)
tyrecian 10-07-07, 10:04 PM	You can solve the DR problem (somewhat) with an archer by dipping into elemental damage. Add +1d6 Fire, or some other variant. Aligned weapons are also nice, if you are expecting to fight your opposition :D Flame arrows is a nice spell for archers, it is 3rd level arcane, and can help out tremendously (cheap scrolls, and it enchants 50 arrows, plus any enchants on bow add in as well)... if you have an arcane caster that can read scrolls :P Melee do have the advantage of pumping up their melee attacks with both strength and Power Attack. The archer can use strength bows, and but power attacking is out for you... that isnt so bad though, as you will often hit many times more using your max bonus all the time. Most games i GM, the archers (whatever their build, including warlocks) stay out of melee as much as possible, and gear themselves to do so (fly, combat control abilities, invis, etc.), meanwhile they take out the enemies they can (like clerics and wizards) while most tanks are in combat swinging their weapons around both PA'ing and expertising at the big bad DR monster, hoping the cleric buffed em up enough to hit with their negatives added in... :)
runestar 10-07-07, 10:16 PM	Archers also have the advantage of being able to stack bow and arrow properties. For example, their bow will likely have the holy, evil outsider and splitting weapon properties, enhanced to +5 via greater magic weapon. Their arrows should typically be made of the correct metal to overcome dr, and have the appropriate bane property. For example, cold iron arrows of chaotic outsider bane arrows for devils, and silver arrows of lawful outsider bane for devils. This makes it cheaper for them to carry around a golf-bag of arrows, as opposed to a golf-bag of weapons for the fighter.:)
Garonak 10-08-07, 06:59 AM	Archers also have the advantage of being able to stack bow and arrow properties. For example, their bow will likely have the holy, evil outsider and splitting weapon properties, enhanced to +5 via greater magic weapon. Their arrows should typically be made of the correct metal to overcome dr, and have the appropriate bane property. For example, cold iron arrows of chaotic outsider bane arrows for devils, and silver arrows of lawful outsider bane for devils. This makes it cheaper for them to carry around a golf-bag of arrows, as opposed to a golf-bag of weapons for the fighter.:) Why bother with the golf bag? Just put Force on the Bow and all the arrows do force damage. There is to my knowledge nothing that force can't beat through.
runestar 10-08-07, 09:54 AM	Force...? Where is this enchantment from?
lunavoco 10-08-07, 11:28 AM	"Force...? Where is this enchantment from?" Seconded, and followed shortly thereafter with: "Which book is the Splitting Enhancement in"?
Empirate 10-08-07, 11:38 AM	IIRC (look it up, it's somewhere farther up in this thread), Split Arrows is a spell in Champions of Ruin. It has been taken as a model for the Splitting Weapon Enchantment in Complete Warrior, but I could be mistaken on the latter. There's an ammunition enchantment in Magic of Faerūn that changes an arrow or bolt into a bead of force. This only does 1 point of force damage regardless of other factors (i.e., 1 HP is the total damage of the projectile), but also casts Hold Monster on the creature struck.
Kamin_Majere 10-08-07, 12:25 PM	I cant remember what book its out of but the "Force" weapon enchantment allows weapons to do an additional 1d6 points of force damage and has a chance to bring down force effects (such as shield and mage armor) If i remember its a +2 adjustment to the weapon
Garonak 10-08-07, 01:52 PM	It's a +2 enchantment from MIC p35. It doesn't give any additional damage, it just turns the ammunition into force.
lunavoco 10-09-07, 07:10 AM	Alright, I have Complete Warrior open infront of me listing the magical weapon enhancements. They are as follows on page 134 - 135: Blood-Seeking, +1 Deflecting, +1 Disarming, +2 Exit Wound, +2 Explosive, +2/+3 Knockback, +3 Last Resort, +1 Where is this Splitting weapon enhancement at again? I am in the right section, ya?
runestar 10-09-07, 08:51 AM	Splitting is from champions of ruin. Any arrow you fire splits into 2. You can pretty much infer the in-game impact for yourself...:D