Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Enterik 07-12-05, 11:04 AM	Hi Everyone, I'm building a 10th level fighter and I was wondering what informed opinion was on the value of intelligent swords? A +1 (+1000gp) Lawful Evil Weapon (I:12 W:12, Ch:10, Ego:4) with hearing vision and light out to 30' (+1000gp) and faerie fire 3/day (+1100gp) or bless 3/day (+1000gp), for a total of +3100gp for enchantments. What are the benefits and detriments of such a weapon in actual use? Obviously, it's an aligned weapon so it can overcome certain damage reductions. Also, it's an extra set of senses. Does that mean it can also roll to sense motive, detect [xxx], spot and can it's empathy ability convey enough info to really be helpful? Say, caution (alert) versus caution (prepare to defend yourself) Can it be charmed or shaken? Since I'm trying to do this on the cheap, which of the two abilities above do you think would be more helpful? Alternatively, would a few low level wondrous items for that 3100gp be a better investment? [Already have Feather Tokens whip and tree, handy haversack, silversheen, universal solvent, gauntlets of ogre power, amulet of health]
tarkin 07-12-05, 12:02 PM	1) It has an extra set of senses, but you did not give it any ranks in spot. So it is unlikely to do well. 2) It does not have any greater ability to warn you than any other ally. I.E. If you hold it and it sees a creature you don't, it can not telepathically warn you any faster than your cohort can warn you. Just as it is possible to surprise you even if your cohort spots an enemey, it is possible to surprise youeven if your sword spots an enemey. 3) It can be charmed, shaken etc., but not by Charm person. Charm monster is required. 4) Bless is nice. Faerie Fire is really only worth it if the sword has Darkvision/blindsense/see invisible and you don't.
Enterik 07-12-05, 12:59 PM	1) It has an extra set of senses, but you did not give it any ranks in spot. So it is unlikely to do well. Yeah, I'm trying to do it where the buy is cheap, spot is a little pricey 2) It does not have any greater ability to warn you than any other ally. I.E. If you hold it and it sees a creature you don't, it can not telepathically warn you any faster than your cohort can warn you. Just as it is possible to surprise you even if your cohort spots an enemey, it is possible to surprise youeven if your sword spots an enemey. But if the weapon spots somethings I fail to notice it can give me an opportunity to move of go on the defensive 3) It can be charmed, shaken etc., but not by Charm person. Charm monster is required. Does that means the weapon stops working, or just that an ego battle ensues? 4) Bless is nice. Faerie Fire is really only worth it if the sword has Darkvision/blindsense/see invisible and you don't. That's what I was thinking too, and I won't be having any of those abilities which is why I wanted a way to paint those sneaky targets :weep: the problem is that the more one puts into said weapon, the more it's price goes up and out of reach. So to make it work...+1 (+1000gp) LE (I:15 W:15 Ch:10 Ego:8) with 60ft darkvision and hearing, light, speech (common, infernal, abyssal) +5000gp bless 3/day +1000, faerie fire 3/day +1100gp, spot 10 ranks +5000gp = +13100gp so I have an increased chance of not being surprised or sneak attacked. It's hard for me to judge if it is worth the expense. I guess now I'm thinking is bless 3/day and light, worth the extra +2100gp? I could get the +1 vs fear effects by a cloak of resistance (1000gp) (among other saves as well) plus a continuous flame torch (110gp) as well as the damage reduction (3 x 100gp bless weapon oil) but I would lose the extra (admittedly limited) rolls to spot by the weapon and the opportunity to bypass damage reduction will be limited to times when the oil is applied. As for the +1 bonus from bless, I'm not sure how to get it on the cheap. Finally, that's a lot of things to juggle, all subject to availablity, for a difference of 550gp, which is a few potions more (including and invisibility).
mvincent 07-12-05, 01:07 PM	value of intelligent swords?Good (since they don't take one of your own actions to use an ability), but they can be a pain for DM's. Best to ask yours first. A +1 (+1000gp) Lawful Evil Weapon A +1 weapon will be at least 2301 gp (2315 gp for a longsword) which of the two abilities above do you think would be more helpful?Bless (faerie fire is generally used for identifying invisible opponents and such, which this sword would not be able to do) Alternatively, would a few low level wondrous items for that 3100gp be a better investment? That's up to you (and your DM)... they're about the same. If desired, here are regular recommended items: +1 weapon +1 Shield +1 Armor +1 Amulet of natural armor +1 ring of protection +1 Cloak of resistance Hat of disguise Bag of tricks (any size)
karthos 07-12-05, 01:14 PM	Also, just because the weapon is lawful evil does not mean it strikes as a lawful and evil weapon. Generally you have to have the appropriate subtype to do that. Think of it this way, does a lawful evil monk strike as a lawful and evil weapon with his unarmed attacks? Nope.
Drachasor 07-12-05, 01:15 PM	An intelligent magical item is immune to Disjunction, since you treat it as a creature (though my understanding is that you can still improve its enchantment later). -Drachasor
Enterik 07-12-05, 01:58 PM	Also, just because the weapon is lawful evil does not mean it strikes as a lawful and evil weapon. Generally you have to have the appropriate subtype to do that. Think of it this way, does a lawful evil monk strike as a lawful and evil weapon with his unarmed attacks? Nope. Well the SRD says only that some damage reductions are overcome by weapons imbued with and alignment, nothing more. Since giving it sentience also gives it an alignment, it is imbued. I see no indication for added cost of alignment or intelligence anywhere else, so unless there is a glaring error of omission, the weapon has an alignment AND there is an inconsistancy in how damage reduction bypass by alignment is treated for various attacks.
Enterik 07-12-05, 02:06 PM	Good (since they don't take one of your own actions to use an ability), but they can be a pain for DM's. Best to ask yours first. I have, still waiting for an answer :waits: A +1 weapon will be at least 2301 gp (2315 gp for a longsword) I'm intending to wear it as armor :embarrass Bless (faerie fire is generally used for identifying invisible opponents and such, which this sword would not be able to do) Yup. That's up to you (and your DM)... they're about the same. If desired, here are regular recommended items: +1 weapon +1 Shield +1 Armor +1 Amulet of natural armor +1 ring of protection +1 Cloak of resistance Hat of disguise Bag of tricks (any size) Yeah, the first point is [relatively] cheap, but I've already invested in a +1 two-handed weapon, and +3 armor, and an amulet of health. I'll muse on the rest...
Enterik 07-12-05, 02:12 PM	An intelligent magical item is immune to Disjunction, since you treat it as a creature (though my understanding is that you can still improve its enchantment later). -Drachasor Where did you find that tid-bit? :cool:
mvincent 07-12-05, 02:53 PM	I'm intending to wear it as armor Ah. The title of this thread (and the fact that you said it would be a sword) kinda threw me. But non-weapon magic items actually make for even better intelligent items. Since the rules say:"intelligent items can activate their own powers without waiting for a command word from their owner", this could be applicable to an intelligent wonderous items initial abilities. A bag of tricks or figurine of wonderous power might be able to activate itself, making it even more useful than an intelligent weapon
karthos 07-12-05, 03:24 PM	Well the SRD says only that some damage reductions are overcome by weapons imbued with and alignment, nothing more. Since giving it sentience also gives it an alignment, it is imbued. I see no indication for added cost of alignment or intelligence anywhere else, so unless there is a glaring error of omission, the weapon has an alignment AND there is an inconsistancy in how damage reduction bypass by alignment is treated for various attacks. When they refer to a weapon having an alignment they are refering to the holy/unholy/axiomatic/anarchic weapon enchantments. As I said before, this is no different than a monk not being able to penertrate lawful damage reduction just because he is lawful in alignment. They should have used different wording for the purposes of damage reduction. You can't reasonably think that for 1000 gp (the base cost of a basic personality for a weapon) you can now penetrate both lawful and evil damage reduction as well as possessing the other benefits of having an intelligent weapon, do you? btw, intelligent items are considered constructs and so are immune to mind affecting abilities (someone before said it could be charmed but it cannot.)
Drachasor 07-12-05, 03:28 PM	Where did you find that tid-bit? :cool: INTELLIGENT ITEMS Magic items sometimes have intelligence of their own. Magically imbued with sentience, these items think and feel the same way characters do and should be treated as NPCs. Intelligent items have extra abilities and sometimes extraordinary powers and special purposes. Only permanent magic items (as opposed to single-use items or those with charges) can be intelligent. (This means that potions, scrolls, and wands, among other items, are never intelligent.) In general, less than 1% of magic items have intelligence. Intelligent items can actually be considered creatures because they have Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. Treat them as constructs. Intelligent items often have the ability to illuminate their surroundings at will (as magic weapons do); many cannot see otherwise. Unlike most magic items, intelligent items can activate their own powers without waiting for a command word from their owner. Intelligent items act during their owner’s turn in the initiative order. Constructs are immune to Disjunction, ergo Intelligent Magical Items are so immune. -Drachasor
Enterik 07-12-05, 06:02 PM	Ah. The title of this thread (and the fact that you said it would be a sword) kinda threw me. But non-weapon magic items actually make for even better intelligent items. Since the rules say:"intelligent items can activate their own powers without waiting for a command word from their owner", this could be applicable to an intelligent wonderous items initial abilities. A bag of tricks or figurine of wonderous power might be able to activate itself, making it even more useful than an intelligent weapon Wait, wait, I was attempting self depricating humor, indeed, it was an error on my part, for I accidentally used the armor table for the base price :P but you do have a point about self activating items that are not weapons. A talking bag of tricks could be quite annoying... "Nothing up my sleeve! Presto! I guess I don't know my own strength!"
Enterik 07-12-05, 06:03 PM	Constructs are immune to Disjunction, ergo Intelligent Magical Items are so immune. -Drachasor Cool, if only I could put 1+1 together :embarrass
Drachasor 07-12-05, 06:43 PM	Cool, if only I could put 1+1 together :embarrass It's asking for a DM headache though. If Disjunction ever really gets used properly (how an evil wizard bent on world domination AND survival would use it), then all the characters will make all their items intelligent. A pain to adjucate. Afterall, it isn't *that* expensive to make something intelligent. -Drachasor
Iver Gearsham 07-12-05, 07:08 PM	When you can add Dancing to an intelegent weapon/item it makes for an interesting watchdog if they can see or telepathicly talk if not you just get the Spidy danger senes warning.
Vanigo 07-12-05, 07:22 PM	3) It can be charmed, shaken etc., but not by Charm person. Charm monster is required. Actually, it can't. It's treated as a construct, and constructs are immune to mind-affecting spells and effects whether they're mindless or not. My favorite ubercheese trick with intelligent magic items is to craft one yourself with special purpose "serve me" and special purpose power ice storm or fireball. Since there's no limit to how often these powers can be used, you basically get one of them as a free action every round. If you use cheap lesser powers, it isn't even that expensive.
mvincent 07-12-05, 07:56 PM	My favorite ubercheese trick with intelligent magic items is to craft one yourself with special purpose "serve me" and special purpose power ice storm or fireball.Hm. Just wondering: can you do that? The rules say: "To create an intelligent item, a character must have a caster level of 15th or higher. Time and creation cost are based on the normal item creation rules, with the market price values on Table: Item Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, and Capabilities treated as additions to time, gp cost, and XP cost. The item’s alignment is the same as its creator’s. Determine other features randomly, following the guidelines in the relevant section." That seems odd. How does that work? Does this mean that intelligent items are intended to be less expensive to make, but more random?
Drachasor 07-12-05, 11:16 PM	Actually, it can't. It's treated as a construct, and constructs are immune to mind-affecting spells and effects whether they're mindless or not. My favorite ubercheese trick with intelligent magic items is to craft one yourself with special purpose "serve me" and special purpose power ice storm or fireball. Since there's no limit to how often these powers can be used, you basically get one of them as a free action every round. If you use cheap lesser powers, it isn't even that expensive. I think that is technically cheating, since the rules don't let you make up your own special purpose. You have to choose from the given catagories. That's my read, anyhow. -Drachasor
Vanigo 07-13-05, 04:10 AM	Hm. Just wondering: can you do that? The rules say: "To create an intelligent item, a character must have a caster level of 15th or higher. Time and creation cost are based on the normal item creation rules, with the market price values on Table: Item Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, and Capabilities treated as additions to time, gp cost, and XP cost. The item’s alignment is the same as its creator’s. Determine other features randomly, following the guidelines in the relevant section." That seems odd. How does that work? Does this mean that intelligent items are intended to be less expensive to make, but more random? I'm 99.44% sure that's a holdover from 3.0 that they forgot to edit. Doing it that way would imply that the creator has little or no control over how much he spends on the item. Apparently gold just vanishes from his purse if he rolls too high or something. Not to mention that would make it literally impossible to create an item with a special purpose. I think the creator pretty much gets to pick and choose. Drachasor: One of the things on the table is "DM's or character's choice," and I'm pretty sure I've seen special purposes not otherwise on that table in various books. Besides, it's an ubercheese trick. Who cares if it's not exactly RAW?
Drachasor 07-13-05, 10:12 AM	Drachasor: One of the things on the table is "DM's or character's choice," and I'm pretty sure I've seen special purposes not otherwise on that table in various books. Besides, it's an ubercheese trick. Who cares if it's not exactly RAW? Everyone should know that "DM's choice" is not "Player's Choice" : ) There are cheesy things in the rules, and cheesy things just outside of them. I suppose I find value in making the distinction. -Drachasor
Raven Dark 07-13-05, 10:50 AM	2) It does not have any greater ability to warn you than any other ally. I.E. If you hold it and it sees a creature you don't, it cannot telepathically warn you any faster than your cohort can warn you. Just as it is possible to surprise you even if your cohort spots an enemy, it is possible to surprise you even if your sword spots an enemy. Any character can communicate (usually by speaking) as a free action outside the iniative order. An intelligent item (or anyone else for that matter) can indeed warn you of a threat as soon as they are aware of it. Intelligent items are invaluable for this reason. The only thing preventing this are DMs who don't know the v3.5 rules, or DMs who say you've done enough talking for this round (by limiting your number of free actions).
Jaid 07-13-05, 11:24 AM	the only case where it can, RAW, give you a warning in time, is if the person is not currently attacking or something. for example, if the sword spots an enemy 100' away, while they are sneaking up on you, the sword can warn you in time that you won't be surprised. however, if the sword spots someone as they step out from behind a wall 15' away and fire an arrow at you, the sword cannot warn you in time for you to not be surprised. thus, as tarkin said, the sword cannot warn you any better than any other ally can. perhaps he was a bit unspecific as to what exact situation his example referred to, but his statement was correct.
mvincent 07-13-05, 11:51 AM	I'm 99.44% sure that's a holdover from 3.0 that they forgot to edit. Ah. Correct. They apparently changed the intelligent item tables to reflect that the creator has a choice in 3.5, but they did not change the associated section in the item creation section. Drachasor: One of the things on the table is "DM's or character's choice," Note: It just says "Choose one" in the 3.5 SRD (effectively the same thing).