Are Bracers of Armor overpriced? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Are Bracers of Armor overpriced? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Joseph_Silver
02-03-07, 09:37 PM A +4 twilight mithral chain shirt costs 26,100 gold. It provides a +8 armor bonus and can be worn by mages with no penalty, even if they are not proficient with light armor.

That's 3262.5 gold per 1 armor.

A pair of Bracers of Armor +8 costs a whopping 64,000 gold and provides only +8 armor. Like the twilight mithral chain shirt, it can be worn by mages with no penalty.

That's 8,000 gold per 1 armor.

So... Do you think that the Bracers of Armor formula should be revised? Right now, the twilight mithral chain shirt is superior in virtually every way.

P.S.

Okay, it appears that I was wrong about Bracers of Armor being overpriced. I just realized that Bracers of Armor protects against incorporeal touch attacks, while a twilight mithral chain shirt doesn't.

A +4 twilight ghost touch chain shirt costs 65,100 gold.

Hm... So it seems that Bracers of Armor are a bargain, being 1,100 gold cheaper.
runestar
02-03-07, 10:09 PM Just keep both, and use whichever you feel is more advantageous. Twillight mithril chainshirt would be better if you are willing to forgo the additional benefit.
ShinAkuma2
02-03-07, 11:04 PM What, Monks and Ninjas mean nothing to you? We happen to appreciate Bracers of Armor, thank you.
TonyStark
02-03-07, 11:44 PM What, Monks and Ninjas mean nothing to you? We happen to appreciate Bracers of Armor, thank you.

Sooo true, there are classes that CANT wear armor or they will lose their abilities, in which case the 0 penalty for wearind the mithril twilight is VERY impracticle
Xeviat-DM
02-03-07, 11:45 PM Bracers of armor +5 cost 25,000 gp.
Ghost Touch Twilight Mithril Chainshirt +1 cost 26,000 gp.

They do the same thing.

The reason Bracers of Armor cost as much as they do is because they protect against incorporeal touch attacks.
runestar
02-03-07, 11:51 PM Yet for an NPC mage who usually does not have to worry about incorporeal touch attacks from your party, +5 twillight mithril chainshirt(37100gp) is a steal compared to bracers of armour+8(64000gp).:)

I would say it depends. Neither is clearly superior to the other, since one merely offers lesser benefits at a lower price.
Xeviat-DM
02-03-07, 11:57 PM And you can't wear a magical mithril chainshirt along with magical robes.
Jaxgaret
02-04-07, 01:28 AM I've been finding more and more that the cost system for magical equipment in 3.5 is pretty darn good, once you actually crunch the numbers. Most of the time.

Good job, WotC. For once.
The_sleeper1
02-04-07, 08:39 AM Of ote is the max dex of that armor. With it a super high dex character can have a higher ac with the bracers than with the armor.

+5 chain shirt with 5 dex ac = 14 armor bonus

Bracers of defence +8 with 36 dex = 16 armor bonus ...
Trolbri
02-04-07, 09:25 AM I have just been looking the DMG at the Bracers of Armor and where does it say that it protects against incorporeal touch attacks?
Avihs
02-04-07, 09:55 AM Where is this "Twilight" mithril chain of which you speak?
Merestil Haye
02-04-07, 10:39 AM I have just been looking the DMG at the Bracers of Armor and where does it say that it protects against incorporeal touch attacks?The description of the Bracers and the rues on incorporeal touch attacks.

Firstly from the description of the Incorporeal subtypeAn incorporeal creature’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it.The Bracers are described as a force effect, and the prerequisite spell is Mage Armour.

Putting these facts together leads to the conclusion that the Bracers protect against incorporeal touch attacks.
jaelis
02-04-07, 11:04 AM The incorporeal protection of bracers doesn't change the fact that the mithral/twilight combination is dumb. Here's why:

1) If you don't want ghost-touched protection, the armor is obviously way better. That makes bracers more of a special-purpose item for a wizard... characters who aren't particularly worried about incorporeal undead will just get the armor. Just like most fighters don't get ghost-touched armor... it's only worth it in somewhat special circumstances.

2) Twilight is a +1 enhancement that reduces ASF by 10%. Mithral does that and quite a bit more, but costs only a straight 1000 gp (for a chain shirt anyway). For magic armor, that's a huge difference. One of these isn't priced fairly, and I think it's mithral. Mithral armor is already a great deal for any type of armor, and letting it be cheaply combined with twilight makes it that much worse.

3) Wizards are not supposed to wear armor, dang it. That's how the class is portrayed and how it has always worked. I'm all for gish builds, and I don't object to abilities that make them possible. But a straight wizard should not feel any kind of optimization pressure to wear armor.

Personally, I'd say make it so twilight doesn't stack with the benefit of mithral. If a wizard wants to wear some twilight leather armor, I'm fine with that... the comparison to bracers is more favorable, and leather armor is a lot less "armor-y" than a chain shirt. And you might want to make mithral a +1 ability too, but I guess that's a bigger change.
Cuddly_Wuddlykins
02-04-07, 12:56 PM Can monks wear the twilight shirt without losing class abilities?
Magrus
02-04-07, 01:07 PM Can monks wear the twilight shirt without losing class abilities?

No. :D
Derren S.
02-04-07, 02:30 PM Also remember that twilight is not core and a bit above the normal power level (->power creep).
So no, the bracers are not too expensive, twilight is too cheap.
jaelis
02-04-07, 02:41 PM Also remember that twilight is not core and a bit above the normal power level (->power creep).

I'm sympathetic, but isn't is a bit hard to argue that when mithral is clearly better than twilight and also cheaper (at least for the case that matters most)?
The_sleeper1
02-04-07, 02:43 PM Also remeber that Dex 24+ with bracers +8 is better than chain anything and I believe that dex 26 with bracers +8 = best ac anyone can get from just armor/dex.
Xeviat-DM
02-04-07, 03:09 PM Also remember that twilight is not core and a bit above the normal power level (->power creep).
So no, the bracers are not too expensive, twilight is too cheap.

Didn't I just show, without a shadow of a doubt, that a twilight mithril chainshirt +1, which grants 5 AC, was actually the same cost and granted the same abilities as Bracers of Armor +5? The shirt actually weighs more and costs 1,000 gp more, but it leaves the wrist slot open and takes up the body slot.
runestar
02-04-07, 11:49 PM Twillight is in the PHB2. That not core enough for you?:P

And I don't think everyone cares for AC vs incorporeal touch attacks. In that sense, twillight is a boon as it allows you a equivalent magic item without having to shell out extra for a secondary effect you do not want.:)
Xeviat-DM
02-05-07, 12:24 AM If no one cared about incorporeal attacks, then Ghost Touch wouldn't be a +3 enhancement for armor.
jaelis
02-05-07, 12:34 AM "Not everyone" is hardly the same thing as "no one."
runestar
02-05-07, 12:36 AM I wasn't saying that no-one cared. All I am saying is that at least there is an option for those who did not care. Are you saying that everyone puts equal weight/emphasis on protection vs incorporeal touch attacks?
Xeviat-DM
02-05-07, 01:26 AM I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a choice, but I'm pointing out that the choice is a fair one; you want 3 AC higher, or you want protection from incorporeal touch attacks. It mostly matters on how many incorporeal undead you have to fight.
unusualsuspect
02-05-07, 01:51 AM 3) Wizards are not supposed to wear armor, dang it. That's how the class is portrayed and how it has always worked. I'm all for gish builds, and I don't object to abilities that make them possible. But a straight wizard should not feel any kind of optimization pressure to wear armor.

In response to this... first, archtypes are not a valid reason to disallow a potent combination. Danging it, incidentally, doesn't change the validity.

Second, the cost of even +1 Twilight Mithril Chain Shirt, 5100 gp, isn't anything to sneeze at.

At the level a mage can afford 5100 gp on an AC-boosting item (rather than, oh, HP boosting, or Casting Stat boosting, or any of the several other key equipment necessities), the greatest likelihood is that the same money could be placed into something else with just as much effect.

Example: An 8th level wizard finally has 5100 gp to spend. He has Mage Armor as a known spell, so his Mage Armor provides the normal +4 Armor bonus (along with that lovely +3 equivalent Ghost Touch effect) and lasts 8 hours... probably the entirety of a day of adventuring. With that 5100 gp, he could either buy +1 Twilight Mithril Chain Shirt and gain the use of a different 1st level spell in that slot (ho hum) and 1 extra armor bonus to AC (all of which does not apply to Incorporeal touch attacks, of course) and be burdened with 10 extra pounds of weight... easily enough to push the limits of his probably low "light load" due to low strength.

Alternatively, He could buy a Ring of Protection +1, an Amulet of Natural Armor +1, and a 1st level Pearl of Power, increasing his total AC to +6 for 16 hours, 1 of which applies to touch AC (hey, teh broken chain shirt of 0% ASF doesn't do that!) and 5 of which, as mentioned, applies to incorporeal touch attacks, a huge boon when that Shadow starts banging on your defenses to do some nasty Strength damage to the 98 lb weakling wizard.

Alternatively, He could buy 51 doses of the material component for Superior (or is it Greater, I can never remember) Mage Armor, a 3rd level spell that grants a +6 armor bonus instead of +4, which weighs nothing and provides defense against incorporeal touch attacks.

Long story short - +1 Twilight Mithril Chain Shirts are not the optimal piece of equipment if your character is capable of planning ahead for situations and is efficient in his use of resources. +1 Twilight Mithril Chain Shirts are pretty much only optimal for lazy players who don't want to have to have Mage Armor as a spell known (Sorcs, for example, though survivability at low levels would just be that much harder) or who don't have a plan for the armor/robe slot otherwise.

Oooooh, another thought: Instead of an amulet of natural armor +1, he could purchase a +1 Mithril Buckler, which would provide a +2 shield bonus whenever worn at the mere cost of 2015 gp. So I guess we'd have to make that 7 AC for 16 of 24 hours instead of 6. My bad. :D

Edit: Actually, Mithril and Twilight CAN be optimal, but as I explained, a Mithril Twilight Chain Shirt isn't it. Instead, take a look at this lovely 0% ASF Full Plate!

http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10649098&postcount=9

probably weighs more than the light load of most wizards, but 15ish k for a +10 armor bonus ain't bad, neh?
Ryll
02-05-07, 04:46 AM I am at work, so no books with me...but are there armor proficiencies?

I seem to remember there being light, medium and heavy armor proficiencies... which means a mage may need a feat just to wear the stuff...

...then again, I may just be remembering that proficiency from NWN2 (which does vary on many DnD rules), Vanguard, EQ, or a host of other games...
unusualsuspect
02-05-07, 04:51 AM I am at work, so no books with me...but are there armor proficiencies?

I seem to remember there being light, medium and heavy armor proficiencies... which means a mage may need a feat just to wear the stuff...

...then again, I may just be remembering that proficiency from NWN2 (which does vary on many DnD rules), Vanguard, EQ, or a host of other games...

Armor proficiencies do exist, but a slightly unbalancing aspect of said proficiencies is that the only penalty for not having them is you get the armor check penalty of the armor in question applied to attack rolls.

1. Mithril Chain Shirts have an ACP of 0.

2. Attack rolls from wizards and sorcs, unless gish, are generally ranged touch. -1 or -2 won't really do that much to most wizards who would be wearing said armor anyway.
runestar
02-05-07, 06:59 AM Unlike PC games, you can wear armour even if you are not proficient with it.:)
Merestil Haye
02-05-07, 08:05 AM Armor proficiencies do exist, but a slightly unbalancing aspect of said proficiencies is that the only penalty for not having them is you get the armor check penalty of the armor in question applied to attack rolls.

1. Mithril Chain Shirts have an ACP of 0.

2. Attack rolls from wizards and sorcs, unless gish, are generally ranged touch. -1 or -2 won't really do that much to most wizards who would be wearing said armor anyway.You might want to recheck what nonproficiency does.

It does not just apply to attack rolls. From the SRD.A character who wears armor and/or uses a shield with which he or she is not proficient takes the armor’s (and/or shield’s) armor check penalty on attack rolls and on all Strength-based and Dexterity-based ability and skill checks. The penalty for nonproficiency with armor stacks with the penalty for nonproficiency with shieldsThe important point to note is that the Initiative check is a Dexterity based check, and is therefore penalised by nonproficiency.

The Skill check comment is not really important, since the only Str- or Dex-based skill to which ACP does not already apply is Ride.

If you don't think -1 is important to any attack roll, just keep a count of how often you miss by 1 point. How often the comment that "Prayer (or other attack roll modifier that meant the enemy missed rather than hit) saved your bacon" is trotted out.

-1 can be the difference between life and death. It's never not important (unless the -1 makes no difference to the d20 roll needed to hit).
runestar
02-05-07, 09:06 AM Which is irrelevant here anyways, since mithril chainshirts and bucklers have armour check penalties of zero...;)
marcus_antonius
02-06-07, 11:50 AM Mithral Chainshirt is "the classic" armor in our gaming group. Practically everyone gets one sooner or later (not counting druids). The wizards/sorcerers usually go for bracers of armor instead, because of weight and ASF.

But all in all i think Mithral Chainshirt is the best overall Armor one can get.

Followed by the other Mithral-bestsellers... the breastplate for "light warriors" and the fullplate for "heavy warriors" (such as dwarves).

offtopic: man i HATE it when computer games dont allow you to even put certain items on... best example... i was playing a rogue in NWN1 and wanted to be a "woodcutter" (a server with custom craft rules) ...but the engine wouldnt let me equip an axe... stupid CRPG's :rolleyes:
Vegepygmy
02-07-07, 01:55 AM Also remember that twilight is not core and a bit above the normal power level (->power creep).
So no, the bracers are not too expensive, twilight is too cheap.Exactly right.
unusualsuspect
02-07-07, 02:01 AM @ Merestil: Good catch. That'll teach me to post authoritatively (and/or snidely) without checking my sources first.

:D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Joseph_Silver 02-03-07, 09:37 PM	A +4 twilight mithral chain shirt costs 26,100 gold. It provides a +8 armor bonus and can be worn by mages with no penalty, even if they are not proficient with light armor. That's 3262.5 gold per 1 armor. A pair of Bracers of Armor +8 costs a whopping 64,000 gold and provides only +8 armor. Like the twilight mithral chain shirt, it can be worn by mages with no penalty. That's 8,000 gold per 1 armor. So... Do you think that the Bracers of Armor formula should be revised? Right now, the twilight mithral chain shirt is superior in virtually every way. P.S. Okay, it appears that I was wrong about Bracers of Armor being overpriced. I just realized that Bracers of Armor protects against incorporeal touch attacks, while a twilight mithral chain shirt doesn't. A +4 twilight ghost touch chain shirt costs 65,100 gold. Hm... So it seems that Bracers of Armor are a bargain, being 1,100 gold cheaper.
runestar 02-03-07, 10:09 PM	Just keep both, and use whichever you feel is more advantageous. Twillight mithril chainshirt would be better if you are willing to forgo the additional benefit.
ShinAkuma2 02-03-07, 11:04 PM	What, Monks and Ninjas mean nothing to you? We happen to appreciate Bracers of Armor, thank you.
TonyStark 02-03-07, 11:44 PM	What, Monks and Ninjas mean nothing to you? We happen to appreciate Bracers of Armor, thank you. Sooo true, there are classes that CANT wear armor or they will lose their abilities, in which case the 0 penalty for wearind the mithril twilight is VERY impracticle
Xeviat-DM 02-03-07, 11:45 PM	Bracers of armor +5 cost 25,000 gp. Ghost Touch Twilight Mithril Chainshirt +1 cost 26,000 gp. They do the same thing. The reason Bracers of Armor cost as much as they do is because they protect against incorporeal touch attacks.
runestar 02-03-07, 11:51 PM	Yet for an NPC mage who usually does not have to worry about incorporeal touch attacks from your party, +5 twillight mithril chainshirt(37100gp) is a steal compared to bracers of armour+8(64000gp).:) I would say it depends. Neither is clearly superior to the other, since one merely offers lesser benefits at a lower price.
Xeviat-DM 02-03-07, 11:57 PM	And you can't wear a magical mithril chainshirt along with magical robes.
Jaxgaret 02-04-07, 01:28 AM	I've been finding more and more that the cost system for magical equipment in 3.5 is pretty darn good, once you actually crunch the numbers. Most of the time. Good job, WotC. For once.
The_sleeper1 02-04-07, 08:39 AM	Of ote is the max dex of that armor. With it a super high dex character can have a higher ac with the bracers than with the armor. +5 chain shirt with 5 dex ac = 14 armor bonus Bracers of defence +8 with 36 dex = 16 armor bonus ...
Trolbri 02-04-07, 09:25 AM	I have just been looking the DMG at the Bracers of Armor and where does it say that it protects against incorporeal touch attacks?
Avihs 02-04-07, 09:55 AM	Where is this "Twilight" mithril chain of which you speak?
Merestil Haye 02-04-07, 10:39 AM	I have just been looking the DMG at the Bracers of Armor and where does it say that it protects against incorporeal touch attacks?The description of the Bracers and the rues on incorporeal touch attacks. Firstly from the description of the Incorporeal subtypeAn incorporeal creature’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it.The Bracers are described as a force effect, and the prerequisite spell is Mage Armour. Putting these facts together leads to the conclusion that the Bracers protect against incorporeal touch attacks.
jaelis 02-04-07, 11:04 AM	The incorporeal protection of bracers doesn't change the fact that the mithral/twilight combination is dumb. Here's why: 1) If you don't want ghost-touched protection, the armor is obviously way better. That makes bracers more of a special-purpose item for a wizard... characters who aren't particularly worried about incorporeal undead will just get the armor. Just like most fighters don't get ghost-touched armor... it's only worth it in somewhat special circumstances. 2) Twilight is a +1 enhancement that reduces ASF by 10%. Mithral does that and quite a bit more, but costs only a straight 1000 gp (for a chain shirt anyway). For magic armor, that's a huge difference. One of these isn't priced fairly, and I think it's mithral. Mithral armor is already a great deal for any type of armor, and letting it be cheaply combined with twilight makes it that much worse. 3) Wizards are not supposed to wear armor, dang it. That's how the class is portrayed and how it has always worked. I'm all for gish builds, and I don't object to abilities that make them possible. But a straight wizard should not feel any kind of optimization pressure to wear armor. Personally, I'd say make it so twilight doesn't stack with the benefit of mithral. If a wizard wants to wear some twilight leather armor, I'm fine with that... the comparison to bracers is more favorable, and leather armor is a lot less "armor-y" than a chain shirt. And you might want to make mithral a +1 ability too, but I guess that's a bigger change.
Cuddly_Wuddlykins 02-04-07, 12:56 PM	Can monks wear the twilight shirt without losing class abilities?
Magrus 02-04-07, 01:07 PM	Can monks wear the twilight shirt without losing class abilities? No. :D
Derren S. 02-04-07, 02:30 PM	Also remember that twilight is not core and a bit above the normal power level (->power creep). So no, the bracers are not too expensive, twilight is too cheap.
jaelis 02-04-07, 02:41 PM	Also remember that twilight is not core and a bit above the normal power level (->power creep). I'm sympathetic, but isn't is a bit hard to argue that when mithral is clearly better than twilight and also cheaper (at least for the case that matters most)?
The_sleeper1 02-04-07, 02:43 PM	Also remeber that Dex 24+ with bracers +8 is better than chain anything and I believe that dex 26 with bracers +8 = best ac anyone can get from just armor/dex.
Xeviat-DM 02-04-07, 03:09 PM	Also remember that twilight is not core and a bit above the normal power level (->power creep). So no, the bracers are not too expensive, twilight is too cheap. Didn't I just show, without a shadow of a doubt, that a twilight mithril chainshirt +1, which grants 5 AC, was actually the same cost and granted the same abilities as Bracers of Armor +5? The shirt actually weighs more and costs 1,000 gp more, but it leaves the wrist slot open and takes up the body slot.
runestar 02-04-07, 11:49 PM	Twillight is in the PHB2. That not core enough for you?:P And I don't think everyone cares for AC vs incorporeal touch attacks. In that sense, twillight is a boon as it allows you a equivalent magic item without having to shell out extra for a secondary effect you do not want.:)
Xeviat-DM 02-05-07, 12:24 AM	If no one cared about incorporeal attacks, then Ghost Touch wouldn't be a +3 enhancement for armor.
jaelis 02-05-07, 12:34 AM	"Not everyone" is hardly the same thing as "no one."
runestar 02-05-07, 12:36 AM	I wasn't saying that no-one cared. All I am saying is that at least there is an option for those who did not care. Are you saying that everyone puts equal weight/emphasis on protection vs incorporeal touch attacks?
Xeviat-DM 02-05-07, 01:26 AM	I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a choice, but I'm pointing out that the choice is a fair one; you want 3 AC higher, or you want protection from incorporeal touch attacks. It mostly matters on how many incorporeal undead you have to fight.
unusualsuspect 02-05-07, 01:51 AM	3) Wizards are not supposed to wear armor, dang it. That's how the class is portrayed and how it has always worked. I'm all for gish builds, and I don't object to abilities that make them possible. But a straight wizard should not feel any kind of optimization pressure to wear armor. In response to this... first, archtypes are not a valid reason to disallow a potent combination. Danging it, incidentally, doesn't change the validity. Second, the cost of even +1 Twilight Mithril Chain Shirt, 5100 gp, isn't anything to sneeze at. At the level a mage can afford 5100 gp on an AC-boosting item (rather than, oh, HP boosting, or Casting Stat boosting, or any of the several other key equipment necessities), the greatest likelihood is that the same money could be placed into something else with just as much effect. Example: An 8th level wizard finally has 5100 gp to spend. He has Mage Armor as a known spell, so his Mage Armor provides the normal +4 Armor bonus (along with that lovely +3 equivalent Ghost Touch effect) and lasts 8 hours... probably the entirety of a day of adventuring. With that 5100 gp, he could either buy +1 Twilight Mithril Chain Shirt and gain the use of a different 1st level spell in that slot (ho hum) and 1 extra armor bonus to AC (all of which does not apply to Incorporeal touch attacks, of course) and be burdened with 10 extra pounds of weight... easily enough to push the limits of his probably low "light load" due to low strength. Alternatively, He could buy a Ring of Protection +1, an Amulet of Natural Armor +1, and a 1st level Pearl of Power, increasing his total AC to +6 for 16 hours, 1 of which applies to touch AC (hey, teh broken chain shirt of 0% ASF doesn't do that!) and 5 of which, as mentioned, applies to incorporeal touch attacks, a huge boon when that Shadow starts banging on your defenses to do some nasty Strength damage to the 98 lb weakling wizard. Alternatively, He could buy 51 doses of the material component for Superior (or is it Greater, I can never remember) Mage Armor, a 3rd level spell that grants a +6 armor bonus instead of +4, which weighs nothing and provides defense against incorporeal touch attacks. Long story short - +1 Twilight Mithril Chain Shirts are not the optimal piece of equipment if your character is capable of planning ahead for situations and is efficient in his use of resources. +1 Twilight Mithril Chain Shirts are pretty much only optimal for lazy players who don't want to have to have Mage Armor as a spell known (Sorcs, for example, though survivability at low levels would just be that much harder) or who don't have a plan for the armor/robe slot otherwise. Oooooh, another thought: Instead of an amulet of natural armor +1, he could purchase a +1 Mithril Buckler, which would provide a +2 shield bonus whenever worn at the mere cost of 2015 gp. So I guess we'd have to make that 7 AC for 16 of 24 hours instead of 6. My bad. :D Edit: Actually, Mithril and Twilight CAN be optimal, but as I explained, a Mithril Twilight Chain Shirt isn't it. Instead, take a look at this lovely 0% ASF Full Plate! http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10649098&postcount=9 probably weighs more than the light load of most wizards, but 15ish k for a +10 armor bonus ain't bad, neh?
Ryll 02-05-07, 04:46 AM	I am at work, so no books with me...but are there armor proficiencies? I seem to remember there being light, medium and heavy armor proficiencies... which means a mage may need a feat just to wear the stuff... ...then again, I may just be remembering that proficiency from NWN2 (which does vary on many DnD rules), Vanguard, EQ, or a host of other games...
unusualsuspect 02-05-07, 04:51 AM	I am at work, so no books with me...but are there armor proficiencies? I seem to remember there being light, medium and heavy armor proficiencies... which means a mage may need a feat just to wear the stuff... ...then again, I may just be remembering that proficiency from NWN2 (which does vary on many DnD rules), Vanguard, EQ, or a host of other games... Armor proficiencies do exist, but a slightly unbalancing aspect of said proficiencies is that the only penalty for not having them is you get the armor check penalty of the armor in question applied to attack rolls. 1. Mithril Chain Shirts have an ACP of 0. 2. Attack rolls from wizards and sorcs, unless gish, are generally ranged touch. -1 or -2 won't really do that much to most wizards who would be wearing said armor anyway.
runestar 02-05-07, 06:59 AM	Unlike PC games, you can wear armour even if you are not proficient with it.:)
Merestil Haye 02-05-07, 08:05 AM	Armor proficiencies do exist, but a slightly unbalancing aspect of said proficiencies is that the only penalty for not having them is you get the armor check penalty of the armor in question applied to attack rolls. 1. Mithril Chain Shirts have an ACP of 0. 2. Attack rolls from wizards and sorcs, unless gish, are generally ranged touch. -1 or -2 won't really do that much to most wizards who would be wearing said armor anyway.You might want to recheck what nonproficiency does. It does not just apply to attack rolls. From the SRD.A character who wears armor and/or uses a shield with which he or she is not proficient takes the armor’s (and/or shield’s) armor check penalty on attack rolls and on all Strength-based and Dexterity-based ability and skill checks. The penalty for nonproficiency with armor stacks with the penalty for nonproficiency with shieldsThe important point to note is that the Initiative check is a Dexterity based check, and is therefore penalised by nonproficiency. The Skill check comment is not really important, since the only Str- or Dex-based skill to which ACP does not already apply is Ride. If you don't think -1 is important to any attack roll, just keep a count of how often you miss by 1 point. How often the comment that "Prayer (or other attack roll modifier that meant the enemy missed rather than hit) saved your bacon" is trotted out. -1 can be the difference between life and death. It's never not important (unless the -1 makes no difference to the d20 roll needed to hit).
runestar 02-05-07, 09:06 AM	Which is irrelevant here anyways, since mithril chainshirts and bucklers have armour check penalties of zero...;)
marcus_antonius 02-06-07, 11:50 AM	Mithral Chainshirt is "the classic" armor in our gaming group. Practically everyone gets one sooner or later (not counting druids). The wizards/sorcerers usually go for bracers of armor instead, because of weight and ASF. But all in all i think Mithral Chainshirt is the best overall Armor one can get. Followed by the other Mithral-bestsellers... the breastplate for "light warriors" and the fullplate for "heavy warriors" (such as dwarves). offtopic: man i HATE it when computer games dont allow you to even put certain items on... best example... i was playing a rogue in NWN1 and wanted to be a "woodcutter" (a server with custom craft rules) ...but the engine wouldnt let me equip an axe... stupid CRPG's :rolleyes:
Vegepygmy 02-07-07, 01:55 AM	Also remember that twilight is not core and a bit above the normal power level (->power creep). So no, the bracers are not too expensive, twilight is too cheap.Exactly right.
unusualsuspect 02-07-07, 02:01 AM	@ Merestil: Good catch. That'll teach me to post authoritatively (and/or snidely) without checking my sources first. :D