Are ranged attack characters weak at high levels? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Are ranged attack characters weak at high levels? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Drewgimpy
05-01-07, 04:12 PM Hello all,

I am fairly new to the game and the boards and have a question on ranged attack characters. I have read a lot about how fighters are weak at higher levels (still forming my own opinion on that) and was wondering what people thought of ranged attack characters at higher levels, Ranger in particular. I have run into situations where damage reduction has been a problem in some encounters so I thought I would the question to see what else is coming at higher levels, good or bad. I have increased the type of arrows I carry to help with DR but they don't cover everything. As soon as I can afford transmutation (or something close to that which removes damage reduction, it is in the magic item compendium) I am going to add it to take care of the DR problem, but I really want to know what to expect from my ranger class from 8th level on. Thanks for your time.
tarkin
05-01-07, 04:24 PM At higher levels, Ranged attack characters start to outperform. Your arrows should be MORE than enough to cover every type.

Typical Archer type build:

Feats include Point Blank Shot and Rapid shot

Bracers of Archery, Greater (+2 to hit, +1 on damage that stacks with magic arrow and/or bow)

+3 bow of Speed
Quiver of Elhonna (Efficeint quiver)

Arrows:
10 adamantine arrows
5 silvered arrows
5 cold iron arrows
10 +1 Holy Arrows (5 silvered, 5 cold iron)
10 +1 Axiomatic (Lawfull) Arrows
10 +1 Anarchic (Chaotic) Arrows
10 +1 arrows of Seeking (negates concealment)
5 +1 arrows of Blood seeking (negates cover)
Fallenangel359
05-01-07, 04:28 PM I'm playing an epic (25) game with my 2 scout, 6 ranger, 12 fighter, 1 shadow dancer half celestial wildelf.

I use a +10 bow. (Dm got rid of the 10x penalty for going beyond +5 because its retarded), with no special properties besides the fact its the energybow from the animated series book (unlimited force arrows)

I have epic weapon spec with ranged weapon mastery, and deadeyeshot, for an average damage within 30 feet of 56 per shot with 6 shots per round (rapid, and bracers of blinding strike)
PhaedrusXY
05-01-07, 04:33 PM Tarkin offered some good suggestions, but I'd actually suggest just getting Holy put on the bow, instead of on a few arrows, if you're in a typical game of "good guys" vs "bad guys".

I'd also suggest just getting Boots of Speed, instead of putting that on the bow.

Archers can do fine at the higher levels, but there are some things that can screw you over. Wind Wall in particular is rough. I'd suggest carrying around a few javelins if you expect to face a caster that might use that. If you have Quick Draw, you can use those almost as well as your bow, and they only suffer a 30% miss chance, instead of automatically missing.

Of course, it might also be possible to just walk through/around the Wind Wall, depending on the exact circumstances. :D
mvincent
05-01-07, 04:35 PM I have increased the type of arrows I carry to help with DR but they don't cover everything.A holy bow with special material arrows should cover everything you need for getting through DR.

I'd opt for boots of speed rather than a speed weapon. Also, the bow itself can be inexpensive if you rely on an ally to cast greater magic weapon on it.
allenchan
05-01-07, 04:41 PM A holy bow with special material arrows should cover everything you need for getting through DR.

Agreed.

I've seen a highly successful ranger with favored enemy evil outsider eat up high level planar enemies.

Ive also seen a fairly effective high level scout with greater manyshot.

Archers can do fine at the higher levels, but there are some things that can screw you over. Wind Wall in particular is rough. I'd suggest carrying around a few javelins if you expect to face a caster that might use that. If you have Quick Draw, you can use those almost as well as your bow, and they only suffer a 30% miss chance, instead of automatically missing.

Of course, it might also be possible to just walk through/around the Wind Wall, depending on the exact circumstances. :D

Most high level archers Ive seen have Improved Precise Shot, which allows them to ignore that miss chance.
Flan
05-01-07, 05:10 PM Tarkin offered some good suggestions, but I'd actually suggest just getting Holy put on the bow, instead of on a few arrows, if you're in a typical game of "good guys" vs "bad guys".

Angel Helm is probably a better option as it gives any weapon you wield "good". It costs a bit, but has additional benefits, the dispel evil ability alone is worth the price.

As for Tarkin's arrows... add about two 0's on the end of those numbers maybe... 1 round's worth of cold iron arrows isn't going to be much of a help to you.
tarkin
05-01-07, 05:27 PM There were actually two rounds worth of special material arrows (look at Holy).

But still, it depends on how many arrows you want to carry/buy/use. I gave about 65 total, which is generally good enough for a non-specific short adventure (2-3 days in a dungeon, before you re-stock).
mvincent
05-01-07, 06:04 PM 1 round's worth of cold iron arrows isn't going to be much of a help to you.Actually, considering the low price of cold iron arrows, there's no reason to have any of your arrows be regular.

For my archer character, my cheapest arrows are cold iron.
Drewgimpy
05-01-07, 06:34 PM This is all great information, thanks for taking the time to bring me up to speed. I was wondering what everyone thinks of the transmuting enhancement being placed on a bow. It is a +2 enchant (page 45 magic item compendium) that overcomes all damage reduction for a target even if it has multiple types of damage reductions that stack. You have to hit the target once with the weapon, once you do that the weapon transforms taking on the properties to overcome the damage reduction.

Once the weapon starts transmuting it "does not gain any other benefit of the properties it takes on, and it always deals normal damage". If I understand the last part correctly the weapon losses any other magical benefits the weapon has once it transmutes. If I am reading that incorrectly please let me know.
Fallenangel359
05-01-07, 08:57 PM energybow is always a fun unique item to go with

Though it seems someone has one in almost every game I play (usually the same person, but this last game me :P)

2d6 110ft range increment, no arrows required

Really nice bow.

Does force damage, and when drawn sheds light like a torch
runestar
05-01-07, 09:40 PM Clerics can make decent archers as well.:)
BugHunter
05-01-07, 10:13 PM Once the weapon starts transmuting it "does not gain any other benefit of the properties it takes on, and it always deals normal damage". If I understand the last part correctly the weapon losses any other magical benefits the weapon has once it transmutes. If I am reading that incorrectly please let me know.

The weapon keeps any other magic it has for example if it has flaming it still has flaming. What they are talking about is if a creature has DR 10/good then transmuting would give you the good but you would not get the 2d6 extra damage.
Drewgimpy
05-02-07, 01:17 AM The weapon keeps any other magic it has for example if it has flaming it still has flaming. What they are talking about is if a creature has DR 10/good then transmuting would give you the good but you would not get the 2d6 extra damage.

Thanks for clearing that up, it is even more attractive now. Thanks all for the input. I appreciate the prompt helpful replies.
Zelck
05-02-07, 02:46 PM You definitely want the splitting enhancement. Basically, it makes every arrow you shoot split into two arrows. Probably the best bow enhancement in the game. Sadly, I forgot which book it's in...
Iver Gearsham
05-02-07, 04:21 PM You definitely want the splitting enhancement. Basically, it makes every arrow you shoot split into two arrows. Probably the best bow enhancement in the game. Sadly, I forgot which book it's in...
Champion's of Ruin. +3 mod

Seeking from DMG +1
Then Blood Seeking CW +1
Then Exit Wound from +1 CW +1d6 damage and roll to attack the next guy +4 cover to AC that gets removed by the Blood Seeking.

With these Cover and Consealment are near meaningless and you can potentualy hit every foe in a line with your arrow shots.

Add in the Ranger Spell 4th lvl Arrow Storm? that lets you shoot Every foe in line of sight and your a one being orc hord killer.
lint trap
05-02-07, 04:34 PM I've always liked the Force enhancement, which makes every arrow deal force damage. I don't understand how it's only +2, since it bypasses DR and has no miss chance vs. incorporeal creatures.

Also, look at what you're making the bow from. Serren wood (BoED) gives you Ghost Touch for free, and a Dragoncraft bow (Draconomicon) adds 20 ft. to the range increment.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Drewgimpy 05-01-07, 04:12 PM	Hello all, I am fairly new to the game and the boards and have a question on ranged attack characters. I have read a lot about how fighters are weak at higher levels (still forming my own opinion on that) and was wondering what people thought of ranged attack characters at higher levels, Ranger in particular. I have run into situations where damage reduction has been a problem in some encounters so I thought I would the question to see what else is coming at higher levels, good or bad. I have increased the type of arrows I carry to help with DR but they don't cover everything. As soon as I can afford transmutation (or something close to that which removes damage reduction, it is in the magic item compendium) I am going to add it to take care of the DR problem, but I really want to know what to expect from my ranger class from 8th level on. Thanks for your time.
tarkin 05-01-07, 04:24 PM	At higher levels, Ranged attack characters start to outperform. Your arrows should be MORE than enough to cover every type. Typical Archer type build: Feats include Point Blank Shot and Rapid shot Bracers of Archery, Greater (+2 to hit, +1 on damage that stacks with magic arrow and/or bow) +3 bow of Speed Quiver of Elhonna (Efficeint quiver) Arrows: 10 adamantine arrows 5 silvered arrows 5 cold iron arrows 10 +1 Holy Arrows (5 silvered, 5 cold iron) 10 +1 Axiomatic (Lawfull) Arrows 10 +1 Anarchic (Chaotic) Arrows 10 +1 arrows of Seeking (negates concealment) 5 +1 arrows of Blood seeking (negates cover)
Fallenangel359 05-01-07, 04:28 PM	I'm playing an epic (25) game with my 2 scout, 6 ranger, 12 fighter, 1 shadow dancer half celestial wildelf. I use a +10 bow. (Dm got rid of the 10x penalty for going beyond +5 because its retarded), with no special properties besides the fact its the energybow from the animated series book (unlimited force arrows) I have epic weapon spec with ranged weapon mastery, and deadeyeshot, for an average damage within 30 feet of 56 per shot with 6 shots per round (rapid, and bracers of blinding strike)
PhaedrusXY 05-01-07, 04:33 PM	Tarkin offered some good suggestions, but I'd actually suggest just getting Holy put on the bow, instead of on a few arrows, if you're in a typical game of "good guys" vs "bad guys". I'd also suggest just getting Boots of Speed, instead of putting that on the bow. Archers can do fine at the higher levels, but there are some things that can screw you over. Wind Wall in particular is rough. I'd suggest carrying around a few javelins if you expect to face a caster that might use that. If you have Quick Draw, you can use those almost as well as your bow, and they only suffer a 30% miss chance, instead of automatically missing. Of course, it might also be possible to just walk through/around the Wind Wall, depending on the exact circumstances. :D
mvincent 05-01-07, 04:35 PM	I have increased the type of arrows I carry to help with DR but they don't cover everything.A holy bow with special material arrows should cover everything you need for getting through DR. I'd opt for boots of speed rather than a speed weapon. Also, the bow itself can be inexpensive if you rely on an ally to cast greater magic weapon on it.
allenchan 05-01-07, 04:41 PM	A holy bow with special material arrows should cover everything you need for getting through DR. Agreed. I've seen a highly successful ranger with favored enemy evil outsider eat up high level planar enemies. Ive also seen a fairly effective high level scout with greater manyshot. Archers can do fine at the higher levels, but there are some things that can screw you over. Wind Wall in particular is rough. I'd suggest carrying around a few javelins if you expect to face a caster that might use that. If you have Quick Draw, you can use those almost as well as your bow, and they only suffer a 30% miss chance, instead of automatically missing. Of course, it might also be possible to just walk through/around the Wind Wall, depending on the exact circumstances. :D Most high level archers Ive seen have Improved Precise Shot, which allows them to ignore that miss chance.
Flan 05-01-07, 05:10 PM	Tarkin offered some good suggestions, but I'd actually suggest just getting Holy put on the bow, instead of on a few arrows, if you're in a typical game of "good guys" vs "bad guys". Angel Helm is probably a better option as it gives any weapon you wield "good". It costs a bit, but has additional benefits, the dispel evil ability alone is worth the price. As for Tarkin's arrows... add about two 0's on the end of those numbers maybe... 1 round's worth of cold iron arrows isn't going to be much of a help to you.
tarkin 05-01-07, 05:27 PM	There were actually two rounds worth of special material arrows (look at Holy). But still, it depends on how many arrows you want to carry/buy/use. I gave about 65 total, which is generally good enough for a non-specific short adventure (2-3 days in a dungeon, before you re-stock).
mvincent 05-01-07, 06:04 PM	1 round's worth of cold iron arrows isn't going to be much of a help to you.Actually, considering the low price of cold iron arrows, there's no reason to have any of your arrows be regular. For my archer character, my cheapest arrows are cold iron.
Drewgimpy 05-01-07, 06:34 PM	This is all great information, thanks for taking the time to bring me up to speed. I was wondering what everyone thinks of the transmuting enhancement being placed on a bow. It is a +2 enchant (page 45 magic item compendium) that overcomes all damage reduction for a target even if it has multiple types of damage reductions that stack. You have to hit the target once with the weapon, once you do that the weapon transforms taking on the properties to overcome the damage reduction. Once the weapon starts transmuting it "does not gain any other benefit of the properties it takes on, and it always deals normal damage". If I understand the last part correctly the weapon losses any other magical benefits the weapon has once it transmutes. If I am reading that incorrectly please let me know.
Fallenangel359 05-01-07, 08:57 PM	energybow is always a fun unique item to go with Though it seems someone has one in almost every game I play (usually the same person, but this last game me :P) 2d6 110ft range increment, no arrows required Really nice bow. Does force damage, and when drawn sheds light like a torch
runestar 05-01-07, 09:40 PM	Clerics can make decent archers as well.:)
BugHunter 05-01-07, 10:13 PM	Once the weapon starts transmuting it "does not gain any other benefit of the properties it takes on, and it always deals normal damage". If I understand the last part correctly the weapon losses any other magical benefits the weapon has once it transmutes. If I am reading that incorrectly please let me know. The weapon keeps any other magic it has for example if it has flaming it still has flaming. What they are talking about is if a creature has DR 10/good then transmuting would give you the good but you would not get the 2d6 extra damage.
Drewgimpy 05-02-07, 01:17 AM	The weapon keeps any other magic it has for example if it has flaming it still has flaming. What they are talking about is if a creature has DR 10/good then transmuting would give you the good but you would not get the 2d6 extra damage. Thanks for clearing that up, it is even more attractive now. Thanks all for the input. I appreciate the prompt helpful replies.
Zelck 05-02-07, 02:46 PM	You definitely want the splitting enhancement. Basically, it makes every arrow you shoot split into two arrows. Probably the best bow enhancement in the game. Sadly, I forgot which book it's in...
Iver Gearsham 05-02-07, 04:21 PM	You definitely want the splitting enhancement. Basically, it makes every arrow you shoot split into two arrows. Probably the best bow enhancement in the game. Sadly, I forgot which book it's in... Champion's of Ruin. +3 mod Seeking from DMG +1 Then Blood Seeking CW +1 Then Exit Wound from +1 CW +1d6 damage and roll to attack the next guy +4 cover to AC that gets removed by the Blood Seeking. With these Cover and Consealment are near meaningless and you can potentualy hit every foe in a line with your arrow shots. Add in the Ranger Spell 4th lvl Arrow Storm? that lets you shoot Every foe in line of sight and your a one being orc hord killer.
lint trap 05-02-07, 04:34 PM	I've always liked the Force enhancement, which makes every arrow deal force damage. I don't understand how it's only +2, since it bypasses DR and has no miss chance vs. incorporeal creatures. Also, look at what you're making the bow from. Serren wood (BoED) gives you Ghost Touch for free, and a Dragoncraft bow (Draconomicon) adds 20 ft. to the range increment.