Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TifRhal 12-30-07, 06:58 PM	In the dmg look at the construction of Robe of the Archmagi pg. 265 dmg 3.5 the robe itself is a +1 robe with mage armor or shield of faith with a caster lvl of 14 making the bonus from shield of faith or mage armor a +4 to give the robe an AC of +5 if I am wrong please let me know, but as the item is set up that is how I see it so i do not see why you could not have a robe of light fortification. So i would see the construction of that item if bought in a shop as 4155 gp being a +1 robe with a +1 for light fortification makign a total of +2 armor stats would be AC +5 MAX DEX unlimited ARMOR CH 0 ARCANE FAIL 0% Speed 30FT WEIGHT 2 lb.
Grand_Commander13 12-30-07, 07:15 PM	Robes of the Archmagi are Wondrous Items, not armor. Still, I wouldn't see how Robes of Fortification would be gamebreaking. Given the way Robes of the Archmagi are priced, I'd say light fortification robes would be fair at 1,000 gp, or the price of a plain old +1 suit of armor. That's my interpretation of the rules, anyway. It would be cost-balanced with Robes of the Archmagi (which are cheaper because of their alignment restriction, remember) if you priced the robes of light fortification that way.
Captain_Kobold 12-30-07, 07:18 PM	Robes cannot be enchanted with armour properties in the same way that Armour can. There are some spells that improve AC that may be cast upon either clothes or armour, but the magic item creation rules do not work this way. Edit: I don't have the example construction available, so my above statement might be wrong, in that they made the Robes in exactly the same way that they would make armour with a similar effect. Ultimately: ask your DM. I would certainly limit this ability to Robes however, to prevent abuse with characters stacking many different armour powers together more cheaply than they should cost.
TifRhal 12-30-07, 07:19 PM	well i priced them as +2 armor because inorder to have any thing added armor must first be +1.
Grand_Commander13 12-30-07, 07:24 PM	Robes cannot be enchanted with armour properties in the same way that Armour can. There are some spells that improve AC thay may be cast upon either clothes or armour, but the magic item creation rules do not work this way.That's funny, I don't remember reading the text where it says that you can never ever ever put these on anything but armor. I guess they'll need to errata away Robe of the Archmagi's spell resistance. Oh wait, it's fine because it's SR 18, nor 17 or 19. Just make your fortification 30% instead of 25% then. ;) Seriously though, you can go wild with magic items all you want. Since you can only wear armor or robes, it's not like it's a way to get armor abilities on the cheap and get the armor's cheap AC.
TifRhal 12-30-07, 07:27 PM	LOL mabey i titled it wrong lol does anyone see make robes in that maner as being wrong. Is the priceing as a +2 for robes of light fortification plausable as an item. the title armor i gues makes folks fussy sorry for the confusion.
Grand_Commander13 12-30-07, 07:31 PM	Since robes aren't armor you don't need the +1 enhancement bonus to give them fortification. As they are a woundrous item, you pay separate for the different enchantments (i.e. price as two 1,000s, not one 4,000), but you pay double on the most expensive bonus if you have multiples.
Cifer 12-30-07, 08:28 PM	Since robes are not armor, putting armor enchantments on them makes them custom items, which would have to be ok-ed by the DM. Using the standard pricing almost certainly will not work - light fortification is basically a protection against 25% of a rogue's important abilities. Are you seriously saying that's worth a mere 1000 gp at level 20 when it prevents about 9d6 damage? Robes do cover the armor slot, but they are different from armor, in the same way that an off-hand weapon is different from a shield although both can be used in your off-hand. The fact that arcane casters can't get quick&easy armor enchantments is one of their balancing factors. @Grand_Commander13 You aren't serious, are you? Please compare a high-dex rogue with a padded armor (155) +5 of moderate fortification and spell resistance 13 (+100000 gp) to a Robe of Bones (2400) +5 (25000*2 for highest) of moderate fortification (9000) and spell resistance 13 (1000; total is 84000, for a saving of 16000 and one armor proficiency!).
FrostHammer 12-30-07, 08:59 PM	Robes take up the armor slot. I wouldn't let armor enchantment go on robes however. Non-armor specific enchantments are fair game.
TifRhal 12-30-07, 09:26 PM	i am looking over the Robe of the Archmagi and the breakdown looks a little like +1 for the enchanment +5 for spell resistance +2 for mage armor +11,000 for resistance looks to me that it could be broken down to an item but it is just as costly to make a robe as armor .
DrakoShade 12-30-07, 09:41 PM	IMHO, robes could easily be treated as a set of armor: Exceptionally Light Armor (no prof required) Robe: 2 gp, Armor Bonus +0, Max Dex Bonus --, Armor Check Penalty 0, ASF 0%, Speed unchanged, Weight 2lb. For that matter, all of the Clothing in the PHB could be treated in the same way (with modifications to price and weight as indicated on Table 7-8: Goods and Services. Now, throw in the fact that in order for it to be made magical, the clothing must be made Masterwork for the standard extra cost of 150gp, which gives no benefit (ACP of 0 reduced by 1 is still 0.) Your 152gp piece of armor is now ready to be enchanted just as any other armor, at the same price premium. It sacrifices the inherent armor bonus of actual armor for the fact that you can wear it with no proficiency required for a total lack of ACP, ASF, and speed penalties, thus meaning that the maximum Armor bonus you could get out of a (non-Epic) robe treated this way is the standard +5 Enhancement, with another +5 worth of Fortification, Ghost Touch, etc. I don't personally see how this comes out game-breaking.
Grand_Commander13 12-31-07, 12:10 AM	@Grand_Commander13 You aren't serious, are you? Please compare a high-dex rogue with a padded armor (155) +5 of moderate fortification and spell resistance 13 (+100000 gp) to a Robe of Bones (2400) +5 (25000*2 for highest) of moderate fortification (9000) and spell resistance 13 (1000; total is 84000, for a saving of 16000 and one armor proficiency!).Huh? I totally missed the part where you needed an armor proficiency to wear padded armor. If you're enchanting it (i.e. if it's already masterwork), you can wear up to studded leather without proficiency and still have no penalty. Anyway, for your robe: +6 armor bonus (Padded Armor gives 1 by virtue of being armor, remember) = 36,000, x2 for being most expensive = 72,000 gp Moderate fortification = 9,000 gp Spell Resistance 13 = 4,000 gp Totals up to 85,000 (the numbers you gave were... Well, way off), or 15,155 gp cheaper than the armor, with no feats burned either way. So yeah, the numbers work out in your favor in your example. Well then, I guess I need a cherrypicked example of my own where the armor is cheaper. Let's go for a barbarian, of healthy dexterity who decides to buy a mithral chain shirt +5 of heavy fortification (totals out to 101,100 gp). On the robe: +8 armor = 128,000 gp (because it's multiplied by two, AND note that he's losing 1 AC out here) Heavy fortification = 25,000 gp. Totals out to 153,000 gp, or 51,900 gp more expensive than the chain shirt for something that gives 1 AC less (the gap would more than double if your DM allowed a +9 armor enhancement). Well golly, looks like the wondrous item system is too expensive and we need to make it cheaper! :rolleyes: Seriously, the system as-is is a good guideline. There's nothing inherently wrong with putting the armor enchantments on wondrous items, but the way the system as-is works out you really need to watch out for people putting several cheap enhancements on their wondrous items. The rules for WIs are loose though, so there is a certain amount of balancing you'll have to do. Robes have an affinity for multiple effects though, so a couple there are to be expected. I really don't see how cutting out almost 1/4 of a rogue's damage with a 1,000 gp enchantment is so evil. Maybe bump the price up a tad, but nothing above 3,000 gp I'd say. I'd be more concerned with cutting out almost 3/4 of their damage with a 9,000 gp enchantment. That's just cruel, yet you can still get a suit of armor that does that and gives you 5 AC with just a 10% spell failure chance for just 17,000 gp (and for just 9,000 gp more you can make it Twilight and have 0% spell failure, if your DM allows non-core; that brings you up to paying 26,000 gp for the armor and the 75% critical/sneak attack protection, when the bracers of armor alone cost 25,000 gp).
GoldDragon 12-31-07, 01:08 AM	In the dmg look at the construction of Robe of the Archmagi pg. 265 dmg 3.5 the robe itself is a +1 robe with mage armor or shield of faith with a caster lvl of 14 making the bonus from shield of faith or mage armor a +4 to give the robe an AC of +5 if I am wrong please let me know, but as the item is set up that is how I see it so i do not see why you could not have a robe of light fortification. So i would see the construction of that item if bought in a shop as 4155 gp being a +1 robe with a +1 for light fortification makign a total of +2 armor stats would be AC +5 MAX DEX unlimited ARMOR CH 0 ARCANE FAIL 0% Speed 30FT WEIGHT 2 lb. Well, it's just a matter of what the robe is made of...some of them can be heavy with the Brocade material and layering for "drama". No magic needed, I see know reason why a Robe can't be made of giant spider silk with the silk being 5 times stronger then steel and a robe made from it could make the wearer to piercing and stabbing weapons but still take 90% damage from Blunt weapon drama (also Spider silk burns easy and stays lit for a few seconds so the wearer might take double damage while wearing untreated spider silk)
Illithid Tentacles 12-31-07, 04:17 PM	Robes are not armor, in the same way cigarette lighters are not flamethrowrs, and dust devils are not hurricanes.
Cifer 01-01-08, 08:11 PM	So yeah, the numbers work out in your favor in your example. Well then, I guess I need a cherrypicked example of my own where the armor is cheaper. Do that, but it doesn't actually prove anything - the fact that there are any situations at all where it is advantageous to use your version of robe enchanting already shows that it's more powerful. There's nothing inherently wrong with putting the armor enchantments on wondrous items, but the way the system as-is works out you really need to watch out for people putting several cheap enhancements on their wondrous items. My point exactly. Of course you can use the same effects that armor enchantments have on other items, but don't expect any kind of balance when you use the same pricing. There's a reason the prices stack on armor.
Ekko 01-02-08, 12:09 AM	For people saying that a +X robe would be cheaper than a +X suit of armor...the armor also already has a bonus. A +5 robe (or tuxedo, or straightjacket, or whatever) gives an armor bonus of +5. A +5 chainshirt gives a +8 armor bonus to AC. Even padded armor gives a +6, and fullplate would give a +13. I fail to see why having a +5 bonus to AC being cheaper than a +6, +8, or +13 bonus is gamebreaking...
mvincent 01-02-08, 01:41 PM	For reference (if desired), from the 3.5 FAQ: Say a wizard wanted to increase the armor bonus on her robe of the archmagi, or improve her ring of wizardry III to a ring of wizardry IV. How would I figure out the cost for increasing such abilities? Strictly speaking, neither of these items can be improved in the normal fashion (see previous question), since there aren’t any “better” versions of them in the game. Both a +1 longsword and +2 longsword exist in the game and have specific costs, so one can determine the cost difference between them (and thus the cost to improve one to be the other). There’s no robe of the archmagi with a +6 armor bonus, however, and a ring of wizardry IV isn’t just a ring of wizardry III with more powers (but rather a ring with a different variety of the same kind of power). That said, a DM willing to allow leeway in item creation could allow a character to upgrade such an item’s capabilities, using the same guidelines as for improving any other item (see previous question). Improving a robe of the archmagi’s armor bonus from +5 to +6 is a lot like improving bracers of armor +5 to bracers of armor +6 (an 11,000-gp difference).
AlterFrom 01-02-08, 01:43 PM	There's a "suit" of armor in Races of Stone that has +1 AC and -- Max Dex, IIRC. Gnome Twist Cloth, I believe it was. AFB at the moment, so someone feel free to correct me on it, but that seems like a good way to get a non-DEX-limiting way to acquire armor enchantments. If I'm correct in remembering its stats, then I don't see letting robes (which would be weaker since they don't grant a base AC bonus) breaking the game balance.
Dog_O_War 01-02-08, 01:44 PM	Robes are not armour, despite the listed robe giving an armour bonus. This bonus is akin to bracers of armour. Robes are concealment; they hide yer doodle.:)
Merestil Haye 01-02-08, 08:45 PM	Robes are not themselves armour; they have none of the properties that define armour. Therefore they cannot normally be enhanced by processes that have Craft Magic Arms and Armour as a prerequisite. Bracers of armour are not armour either; however, there is a variant rule that allows armour properties to be added to armour. So you could (with DM agreement) obtain Bracers of Armour +1 Light Fort. These cost exactly the same as Bracers of Armour +2. If your DM is in a good mood, he may also agree that it is reasonable, since robes occupy the body body-slot and thus you cannot wear magical armour and enchanted robes, to allow Robes of Armour to be produced that are basically Bracers of Armour in another slot. If your DM agrees to both, you have what you want.
Tony Vargas 01-02-08, 09:28 PM	If something doesn't have ASF or MaxDEX, chances are it /shouldn't/ be armor in any more beneficial way, either. A Robe can certainly be enchanted to give an 'armor bonus,' much like bracers of armor, but then so could any wonderous item, though some might cost more than others due to affinities. Such an item would not be armor in any other sense, though - it wouldn't have ASF, Max DEX, check penalties, movement restrictions, and so forth, and it wouldn't be suitable for adding armor enchantments too. I'd hesitate to reverse engineer a multi-function item like the robe of the archmagi, and wouldn't read too much into it's cost. Of course, that's only so far as using the cost formulae in the DMG are concerned. Ultimately, you can have any item you want if your DM aproves it, and you can afford the cost he assigns to creating (or comissioning) it.
Neutronium_Dragon 01-02-08, 09:59 PM	While they're not technically armor, I don't really see any problems with allowing them to be given magical properties as though they are. Since they occupy the same body slot there won't be any doubling up of benefits, and in practice most of the armor properties are just priced as secondary properties as they would be on a wondrous item. The few that are +X are probably fine to handle in the same way on armor. What ultimately matters is that you're paying the listed cost for the property, and if you have +1 robes of light fortification priced as per the armor rules, you are paying the listed cost. That said, you should probably charge the 150 GP masterwork cost for the robes in question, just to keep things fair.
groveborn 01-03-08, 01:24 AM	Treat Robes of Armor like Bracers of Armor, also in this forum. According to the Arms and Equipment guide you may enhance them as though they were real armor. Furthermore, the SRD states that they become epic when they exceed a +10 enhancement bonus. It's unclear if that means that a wondrous item can have a +10 to ac, or if it's total enhancements. Nontheless, bracers can go to +8 out of the DMG, so I'd imagine that there is no other limit. Armor itself has limits of +5 to ac, and +10 total.
Merestil Haye 01-03-08, 08:02 AM	Furthermore, the SRD states that they become epic when they exceed a +10 enhancement bonus.No, it does not. What the SRD actually says is : Grants an enhancement bonus to armor higher than +5. Has a special ability with a market price modifier greater than +5. Grants an armor bonus of greater than +10 (not including magic armor’s enhancement bonus).If you are using the AEG rules, Bracers can be enchanted with a mix of armour bonus and armour properties that total no more than +13, of which the armour bonus can be no higher than +8. Prices for +9 to +13 equivalents are given in the sidebar that presents the rule. Since Heavy Fortification Bracers of Armour +8 exceed none of the epic-level parameters (total armour bonus is +8, there is no enhancement bonus to the item's armour bonus and it has no property greater than +5) it is not an epic item. I actually agree with your approach (if I hadn't made that clear); it's just that I think you are misinterpreting what the epic threshold for total armour bonus applies to.
elondir 01-03-08, 09:06 AM	Back in 2e there was an item called a Cloak of Protection. It's like a cloak of resistance but also offered AC bonuses. I don't see why you couldn't add armor bonuses to ordinary clothes (such as a leather bikini +5 or a loincloth of shielding).
Cifer 01-03-08, 07:37 PM	According to the Arms and Equipment guide you may enhance them [bracers of armor] as though they were real armor. A&EG is 3.0 and in my opinion one of the most broken and generally faulty supplements for it, which is somewhat highlighted by the fact that although there is the MIC now, it doesn't mention anything about the bracers being armor-like to enhance. For people saying that a +X robe would be cheaper than a +X suit of armor...the armor also already has a bonus. A +5 robe (or tuxedo, or straightjacket, or whatever) gives an armor bonus of +5. A +5 chainshirt gives a +8 armor bonus to AC. Even padded armor gives a +6, and fullplate would give a +13. And a suit of armor is being paid for by an armor proficiency and not having the abilities that e.g. a robe of the Archmage has.
pigknight 01-04-08, 12:39 AM	If you want a caster with armor just get a +4 Twilight Heavily Fortified Mithral Chain Shirt (0% SF)
TifRhal 01-04-08, 12:57 PM	i think the biggest thing is that this guy wanted a robe of total fort for his monk he did not care about the ac he had bracers of armor. it was just a way for him to avoid crits. but some interesting ideas all around