are spell component pouches free at first level? [Archive] - Wizards Community

are spell component pouches free at first level? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Wazdakka
08-13-07, 01:50 AM Hey, I'm making a bard at first level, and it didn't hit me until now that it does not specify whether or not my spell component pouch, spell book, or instruments are free at first level, or if I have to spend my GP to buy them. Is there any clarification on this? alternatively, how much weight can a backpack hold? and finally, how much do arrows cost without the quiver. Is the quiver free along with it. How much would I pay if I just wanted the arrows?
Vharuck
08-13-07, 01:57 AM Hey, I'm making a bard at first level, and it didn't hit me until now that it does not specify whether or not my spell component pouch, spell book, or instruments are free at first level, or if I have to spend my GP to buy them.

You have to spend your gold on them, just liek the fighter has to use his to buy weapons and armor. Note, however, that bards don't need spellbooks. They just know their spells intuitively.

alternatively, how much weight can a backpack hold?

Considering it's made from leather and made well (look at that price tag!), I'd say more than you could hold by hand.

and finally, how much do arrows cost without the quiver. Is the quiver free along with it. How much would I pay if I just wanted the arrows?

20 arrows cost 1 gold. It's best to assume that the quiver is thrown in for free if you buy them. Even if you don't want to assume, the table shows that 20 arrows cost 1 gold. Only the text mentions quivers.
Droma
08-13-07, 02:07 AM Bards have to buy spell component pouches and their instrument. Wizards get a free spellbook but have to still buy a spell component pouch. Sorcerers just need to buy the spell component pouch.
1 ton ghost
08-13-07, 02:49 AM ftr's gotta' buy his own whetstone, right?
you should need to buy your pouch.

they never really have specific rules for those, save for expensive components. i know it's kinda' implied in your downtime that you're buying eye of newt, spidersilk, all the mojo raw materials, but having an endless supply of sulphur shouldn't be cart blanche for Fireball

no one takes Eschew Materials but i cannot help but think this is incredibly useful. even an archmage is practically screwed if someone sunders his bag or it was grappled and stripped from him or disarmed away. frequently like to sleight of hand those away at an inn, but then your familiar should be on guard duty or even living "in there".

related note: spellbooks/most default "in game books" are 100pgs, yes?
each spell level = 1 page and cantrips (1/2lvl) still = 1pg/ea
wiz's start w/ All Cantrips plus the Int bonus, etc.
how many Cantrips are there?
when you max out 100pgs, do you have to then actually buy your 2nd book?
are the contents of a Hewd's Hvrsck airtight? (does a book get wet w/in?)
Kouk
08-13-07, 07:47 AM Hey, I'm making a bard at first level, and it didn't hit me until now that it does not specify whether or not my spell component pouch, spell book, or instruments are free at first level, or if I have to spend my GP to buy them. Is there any clarification on this? alternatively, how much weight can a backpack hold? and finally, how much do arrows cost without the quiver. Is the quiver free along with it. How much would I pay if I just wanted the arrows?

Very details-oriented eh?

Nothing is free, unless you get permission from the DM or it states something in the rules. Check your spells though, you might not even need material components depending on the ones you know.

If you must know how much a backpack holds, some rules have been written up here:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040406a

Scroll down past the metric weights chart.

Arrows are what you are buying, you may or may not get a P.O.S. quiver made of wicker or a few strips of wood, leather and/or cloth for free.
Lawkeeper
08-13-07, 08:07 AM related note: spellbooks/most default "in game books" are 100pgs, yes?
each spell level = 1 page and cantrips (1/2lvl) still = 1pg/ea
wiz's start w/ All Cantrips plus the Int bonus, etc.
how many Cantrips are there?
when you max out 100pgs, do you have to then actually buy your 2nd book?
are the contents of a Hewd's Hvrsck airtight? (does a book get wet w/in?)
Spellbooks are 100pgs per default, yes - other books are not detailed.
Many cantrips exist. The Consolidated spell lists alone gives 28 wizard cantrips.
Yes, when you don't have space enough left in your spellbook, you have to buy another. You could buy several of them, to reorganize your spells, or to have spare spellbooks stashed in security.
Yes, the Haversack is airtight, if closed : it's an extradimensional space.
Shaggy_Shaggs
08-13-07, 08:21 AM no one takes Eschew Materials but i cannot help but think this is incredibly useful. even an archmage is practically screwed if someone sunders his bag or it was grappled and stripped from him or disarmed away. frequently like to sleight of hand those away at an inn, but then your familiar should be on guard duty or even living "in there".Feats are significantly more valuable than a bit of gold. Plenty of conscientious magic users exist that don't want to waste a precious feat on Eschew Materials. Those are the guys that carry ten spare spell component pouches and/or ten spare focuses. :smirk:
NeueRegel
08-13-07, 08:51 AM Aside from Sorcerers and Bards not using spellbooks, I've noticed that even in core rules games, even by the most hard-core players here on the boards, that they usually throw Sorcerers the Eschew Materials feat as a free bonus class feat. A "flavour" thing, I suppose.

I've never seen it mentioned either way for a Bard, but, never much thought about it either. Begs the question also about Assassins, which "cast spells just as a bard does", though their stat is Intelligence instead of Charisma. I can't much picture a bard fumbling for components while playing his stratocaster, nor the assassin while being stealthy/disguised/throwing lots of poisoned sharp thingies.

I don't know a thing at all about all those new splat classes and prestiges.

Neue
tarkin
08-13-07, 11:24 AM 1. There is NO consensus about giving sorcerors a free feat. Among the WoTC approved games (GenCon, Living City, etc.) this is not allowed. Most of the people I have played with do NOT do this.

Never trust ANYONE that says "most players" without also putting in "that I play with."

They have NOT done a survery, and are just talking out their head. They are trying to convince you to play their way by lying to you about how 'everyone else does it'. They have NO idea how many people really do it. At the best they are 'remembering' it, but honestly people usually discount the number of games they played in where the rule they love was dissallowed, so even their memory is not worth trusting

(Prove me wrong NeueRegel, give me REAL numbers show me how many DM's you really asked. )

2. Among the FEW players that consider Sorcerors weaker than Wizards, the usuall thing to do to boost them is to give them Eschew Materials.

This is mainly because a bunch of people that saw the word Sorceror, and never having dealt with wizardly types that don't use spell books they thought Psionic.

3. Most people do not do the same for Bards because they do not think Psionic when they hear Bard.

P.S. When I play Sorcerors they will beat the tar out of a wizard of the same level at 1st and all even levels upto 18. They will generally get beaten at all odd levels except 1st. The reasons for this are fairly obvious if you look at how many spells they get and when. As such, I do not feel they need to get a free feat.
Watchman
08-13-07, 11:41 AM Then again, as Feats go Eschew Materials is about as close to "pure flavor" as it now gets - off the top of my head the about exact sole concrete use for it I can remember would be qualifying for the Dracolexi prestige class. And seeing as how it's classed [General] instead of something potentially sligthtly problematic like [Metamagic]...

It's not like handwaving it for free to the "spontaneous caster" classes was going to have any practical effect around 99% of the time or so, and it would seem to fit the general concepts rather well.

On the same vein, I don't really see why you couldn't use the thing to waive foci valued 1gp or less, given that they're just as much usually-ignored flavor details as the material components of the same nominal price.
Lawkeeper
08-13-07, 11:54 AM Of the top of my head (so I might be wrong), there're also the master transmogrifist PrC.
1 ton ghost
08-13-07, 12:42 PM apart from guarding your book, the pouch is the best attack you can land on a wiz/soc. provided he doesn't have Eschew Materials and main attack(s) call for material components.
their BAB sucks, so even drawing an AoO, it's worth it to get his bag and save your hide. rather be hit w/ his dagger or his fireball?

it should be valid. i mean, a super archer is hamstrung w/ a bow and no arrow, it should follow logically w/ magi.
Hell, Clerics too: snatch that holy symbol if it's a requisite focus for spells. this is why they made Summon Holy Symbol (a new orison) and allow Sanctification; essentially blessings and prayers turn your shield, weapon, lucky coin, shoe, whatever into a holy symbol (Dungeonscape or Comp. Champ, can't remember which)

as for Eschew...i would NOT grant anyone this feat for free...ever. it's far too useful/utilitarian. i'd let a mage take it as one of his bonus feats in lieu of Item Creation or Metamagic, but that's it.

they never really make you keep track of every bit of "gum arabic, glass rods, etc." but they always insist upon the exact gp of silver dust/diamond dust, etc. are they both not valid? i mean, no sulphur=no fireball, and depending on situation, i'd rather have another big AE attack vs. a Prot. vs Evil

also consider:
- creatures w/ Scent...some components like the previously mentioned are um, a bit, fragrant and would get your mage zeroed double quick
-environmental issues: getting drenched for example(pouch isn't waterproof, Haversack is, [thanks btw Lawkeeper]), alot of components could be ruined
Lawkeeper
08-13-07, 01:39 PM Many spells don't have any material component (shapechange, meteor swarm, teleport, for examples), so attacking a magician's pouch is hardly a good attack, except if you know for sure that his only useful spells have material components.

EDIT: BTW, getting anything from the Haversack is a move action... whereas from a pouch is part of the casting. So...
Watchman
08-13-07, 02:46 PM Pff. I'm pretty sure most DMs fail to prosecute the utter inconvenience and misery Heavy Armours would actually inflict on their wearers as well. (There's good reasons infantry only ever wore that level of harness for serious set-piece field battles, and everyone made do with more convenient gear for day-to-day campaigning - nevermind now in difficult terrain, such as most wilderness adventuring tends to happen in.)

Same thing if you ask me.

Oh, and there's no particular reason why the spell component pouches wouldn't be waterproof by default (or available as such for a minor increase in price) to forestall the adventuring wizard finding out the bat guano he needs for a Fireball is now so much sludge - people made liquid-proof containers all the time for various purposes out of almost anything you care to think of. For example where available woven birch-bark was a popular choice for the peasants' liquid-container needs, and AFAIK was also used to weatherproof composite-structure bowstaves...
Lawkeeper
08-13-07, 03:00 PM Rather than claiming a special quality of water pouches, just point me to the rule saying that component pouches or material components are ruined when drenched...;)
NeueRegel
08-13-07, 03:33 PM Tarkin, you're entitled to your opinion, as always. Now, that said, Get your proverbial panties out of a bunch.

Did I say, "We play that way?" No.

Did I say, "It was a consensus?" No.

Did I say, "I've asked many DM's?" No. (I have asked exactly one DM, the only other of our 12 players that also takes a turn DM'ing, and incidently he "does")

So don't go trying to slander my name with putting words in my mouth like "most players" and/or "that I play with. I posted nor even implied any such thing.

When I started visiting these boards three years ago, and most of the conversations were still about core rules, one of the things that struck me as I was trying to learn/transition from AD&D up to 3.5 was the numerous arguements about sorcerers being weaker than wizards, and that one of the offsets that was suggested at least once in every such thread was "free eschew materials" for the "poor sorcerer". I didn't think of it, make it up, or even espouse it. I just remember that it was a very common house rule.

So stop trying to pick a fight where one never existed.

Respectfully,
NeueRegel
risner
08-13-07, 10:47 PM 1) I have to spend my GP to buy them. Is there any clarification on this?
2) alternatively, how much weight can a backpack hold?
3) and finally, how much do arrows cost without the quiver. Is the quiver free along with it. How much would I pay if I just wanted the arrows?

1) No, you must spend gp on them. The only free thing is your 1st pair of clothing and even then I believe there are restrictions on which ones you can take for free.

2) go to www.crystalkeep.com and get the equipment pdf. Inside it they list the container holding capacity and they also list the source (a RotG article on WotC site.)

3) The quiver is free, they cost the same with or without a quiver.
tiercel
08-13-07, 11:20 PM Well.. you have to pay for a component pouch, just like you have to pay for rations. In my experience, DMs tend to track the component pouch about as hard as they track rations, i.e. in most situations very little or at all except in specific situations when they might be expected to be important.

When you get right down to it, a component pouch is an amazing little device, given that you've got what, rose petals and dead spiders and bat guano and chipped mica and little iron rods and glass rods and bits of fur and skunk cabbage leaves and bits of pork rind and bits of spider webs and maybe even some diamond dust all in there and somehow, they dont all mix and mash together and you can always find what you need so quickly that it is a free action in the middle of spellcasting. (Plus, you have enough of each that you can cast each spell several times at least, without worrying.)

It's just a rules simplifier. If you took it literally, you'd either have to track indiividual components (shades of 2e) or it would be a literal magic item with the properties of a very small handy haversack and possibly something like major creation going on.
1 ton ghost
08-14-07, 12:13 PM most of these arguments i can understand and/or agree with.
however, it's a pouch, like a money pouch, which are often pilfered, damaged, messed w/, etc.

when/during item retrieval and messing w/ PC gear, IMO:
-may/may not draw AoO
-should be suseptible to obj. attacks (disarm, sunder, etc)

i would not rule on waterproofing, glammering, whatever. they provide a bonus for that on spellbooks (at a cost), so i would say if you have the cash, you can juice your bag as well. probably a good investment because you and your gear will and should yield to the elements, attacks, everything, but you don't want to get so consumed in minutia that you lose focus of the greater conflict or fight.

ex's)holy water can freeze and break the confines of a glass, iron can rust, falling damage can shatter your glass rods, etc.

personally, i'm very detailed-oriented and i know the irony of applying realistic concepts to a "fantasy game" and all, but anything to add depth of play i encourage.

not nitpicking over the exact contents for cheap components or the mechanics thereof (retrieval/use is Free Action, right?) vs. the Move Action to fetch stuff from a Haversack, belt, backpack which may/may not provoke AoO.

it's kinda' assumed in your downtime you're researching your 2 new spell formulas you get upon leveling and maybe hitting the market/hedge mage shop for cheap ie)assumed components. but, you gotta pay for the expensive ones.
they go somewhere, that is the pouch, it should and can be vulnerable.

cars don't work w/out gas...or a capable driver for that matter
Callista
08-14-07, 02:09 PM related note: spellbooks/most default "in game books" are 100pgs, yes?
each spell level = 1 page and cantrips (1/2lvl) still = 1pg/ea
wiz's start w/ All Cantrips plus the Int bonus, etc.
Yes to all.
how many Cantrips are there?All the ones in the PHB, to start with. I would allow a wizard to research or gain other cantrips, though. Ask your DM.
when you max out 100pgs, do you have to then actually buy your 2nd book?Yes. But by then, it's a minor expenditure.
are the contents of a Hewd's Hvrsck airtight? (does a book get wet w/in?)Yes, because it's an extradimensional space, just like a Bag of Holding. Living creatures placed inside can suffocate for lack of air.
Watchman
08-14-07, 02:23 PM I always pictured the somewhat misnamed component pouch to basically be a specialised belt-type thingy with a lot of small compartements for different materials, complete with properly sophisticated flaps and what-have-you closure arangements for the contents to be quickly and easily available when needed and safely packed away the rest of the time.

They make those sort of things for scrolls and potions too, and you can't claim there wouldn't be a market for such items - or any lack of craftsmen capable of constructing such contraptions.

Incidentally, since the bat guano/sulphur combo for example is AFAIK only used for Fireballs, one would assume the mages used small, pre-made, dried chunks of the stuff. No fumbling around with icky bat crap and sulphur powder in the middle of a fight, just whip out one of those balls and let fly. Ditto for the other component combos; you'd think arcane spellcasters in particular had Sleight of Hand as a class skill just to account for the manual dexterity managing that stuff entails...
NeueRegel
08-14-07, 03:27 PM I always pictured the somewhat misnamed component pouch to basically be a specialised belt-type thingy... ... you'd think arcane spellcasters in particular had Sleight of Hand as a class skill just to account for the manual dexterity managing that stuff entails...

Ah, see, now there's the rub... Sorcerers should *never* be given a free class feat like eschew materials, gods forbid! But Wizards it seems get the free class feat "quick draw materials"... Go figure...

Neue
Mindolin
08-14-07, 03:36 PM Ah, see, now there's the rub... Sorcerers should *never* be given a free class feat like eschew materials, gods forbid! But Wizards it seems get the free class feat "quick draw materials"... Go figure...

Neue

What the heck are you talking about with that free class feature? Got any REAL evidence to back it up?

Of course you have to buy everything, otherwise it would say you get something free, like the Samurai's Daisho or the Wizard's spellbook. Both have it mentioned that they start with it.

And Eschew Materials can be pretty useful. It depends on play style of the DM in question.
Vharuck
08-14-07, 05:19 PM And Eschew Materials can be pretty useful. It depends on play style of the DM in question.

I'd say it's useful in character for not touching bat crap to cast frieball or eating a live spider when casting spiderclimb.
ToastedAmphibian
08-14-07, 07:22 PM I'd say it's useful in character for not touching bat crap to cast frieball or eating a live spider when casting spiderclimb.

Or if your character happens to lack hands (How many portions of wax can a leopard stick to teh bottoms of his paws? Ohwell, atleast he can always cast Cats Grace, no shortage of cat fur.....)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Wazdakka 08-13-07, 01:50 AM	Hey, I'm making a bard at first level, and it didn't hit me until now that it does not specify whether or not my spell component pouch, spell book, or instruments are free at first level, or if I have to spend my GP to buy them. Is there any clarification on this? alternatively, how much weight can a backpack hold? and finally, how much do arrows cost without the quiver. Is the quiver free along with it. How much would I pay if I just wanted the arrows?
Vharuck 08-13-07, 01:57 AM	Hey, I'm making a bard at first level, and it didn't hit me until now that it does not specify whether or not my spell component pouch, spell book, or instruments are free at first level, or if I have to spend my GP to buy them. You have to spend your gold on them, just liek the fighter has to use his to buy weapons and armor. Note, however, that bards don't need spellbooks. They just know their spells intuitively. alternatively, how much weight can a backpack hold? Considering it's made from leather and made well (look at that price tag!), I'd say more than you could hold by hand. and finally, how much do arrows cost without the quiver. Is the quiver free along with it. How much would I pay if I just wanted the arrows? 20 arrows cost 1 gold. It's best to assume that the quiver is thrown in for free if you buy them. Even if you don't want to assume, the table shows that 20 arrows cost 1 gold. Only the text mentions quivers.
Droma 08-13-07, 02:07 AM	Bards have to buy spell component pouches and their instrument. Wizards get a free spellbook but have to still buy a spell component pouch. Sorcerers just need to buy the spell component pouch.
1 ton ghost 08-13-07, 02:49 AM	ftr's gotta' buy his own whetstone, right? you should need to buy your pouch. they never really have specific rules for those, save for expensive components. i know it's kinda' implied in your downtime that you're buying eye of newt, spidersilk, all the mojo raw materials, but having an endless supply of sulphur shouldn't be cart blanche for Fireball no one takes Eschew Materials but i cannot help but think this is incredibly useful. even an archmage is practically screwed if someone sunders his bag or it was grappled and stripped from him or disarmed away. frequently like to sleight of hand those away at an inn, but then your familiar should be on guard duty or even living "in there". related note: spellbooks/most default "in game books" are 100pgs, yes? each spell level = 1 page and cantrips (1/2lvl) still = 1pg/ea wiz's start w/ All Cantrips plus the Int bonus, etc. how many Cantrips are there? when you max out 100pgs, do you have to then actually buy your 2nd book? are the contents of a Hewd's Hvrsck airtight? (does a book get wet w/in?)
Kouk 08-13-07, 07:47 AM	Hey, I'm making a bard at first level, and it didn't hit me until now that it does not specify whether or not my spell component pouch, spell book, or instruments are free at first level, or if I have to spend my GP to buy them. Is there any clarification on this? alternatively, how much weight can a backpack hold? and finally, how much do arrows cost without the quiver. Is the quiver free along with it. How much would I pay if I just wanted the arrows? Very details-oriented eh? Nothing is free, unless you get permission from the DM or it states something in the rules. Check your spells though, you might not even need material components depending on the ones you know. If you must know how much a backpack holds, some rules have been written up here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040406a Scroll down past the metric weights chart. Arrows are what you are buying, you may or may not get a P.O.S. quiver made of wicker or a few strips of wood, leather and/or cloth for free.
Lawkeeper 08-13-07, 08:07 AM	related note: spellbooks/most default "in game books" are 100pgs, yes? each spell level = 1 page and cantrips (1/2lvl) still = 1pg/ea wiz's start w/ All Cantrips plus the Int bonus, etc. how many Cantrips are there? when you max out 100pgs, do you have to then actually buy your 2nd book? are the contents of a Hewd's Hvrsck airtight? (does a book get wet w/in?) Spellbooks are 100pgs per default, yes - other books are not detailed. Many cantrips exist. The Consolidated spell lists alone gives 28 wizard cantrips. Yes, when you don't have space enough left in your spellbook, you have to buy another. You could buy several of them, to reorganize your spells, or to have spare spellbooks stashed in security. Yes, the Haversack is airtight, if closed : it's an extradimensional space.
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-13-07, 08:21 AM	no one takes Eschew Materials but i cannot help but think this is incredibly useful. even an archmage is practically screwed if someone sunders his bag or it was grappled and stripped from him or disarmed away. frequently like to sleight of hand those away at an inn, but then your familiar should be on guard duty or even living "in there".Feats are significantly more valuable than a bit of gold. Plenty of conscientious magic users exist that don't want to waste a precious feat on Eschew Materials. Those are the guys that carry ten spare spell component pouches and/or ten spare focuses. :smirk:
NeueRegel 08-13-07, 08:51 AM	Aside from Sorcerers and Bards not using spellbooks, I've noticed that even in core rules games, even by the most hard-core players here on the boards, that they usually throw Sorcerers the Eschew Materials feat as a free bonus class feat. A "flavour" thing, I suppose. I've never seen it mentioned either way for a Bard, but, never much thought about it either. Begs the question also about Assassins, which "cast spells just as a bard does", though their stat is Intelligence instead of Charisma. I can't much picture a bard fumbling for components while playing his stratocaster, nor the assassin while being stealthy/disguised/throwing lots of poisoned sharp thingies. I don't know a thing at all about all those new splat classes and prestiges. Neue
tarkin 08-13-07, 11:24 AM	1. There is NO consensus about giving sorcerors a free feat. Among the WoTC approved games (GenCon, Living City, etc.) this is not allowed. Most of the people I have played with do NOT do this. Never trust ANYONE that says "most players" without also putting in "that I play with." They have NOT done a survery, and are just talking out their head. They are trying to convince you to play their way by lying to you about how 'everyone else does it'. They have NO idea how many people really do it. At the best they are 'remembering' it, but honestly people usually discount the number of games they played in where the rule they love was dissallowed, so even their memory is not worth trusting (Prove me wrong NeueRegel, give me REAL numbers show me how many DM's you really asked. ) 2. Among the FEW players that consider Sorcerors weaker than Wizards, the usuall thing to do to boost them is to give them Eschew Materials. This is mainly because a bunch of people that saw the word Sorceror, and never having dealt with wizardly types that don't use spell books they thought Psionic. 3. Most people do not do the same for Bards because they do not think Psionic when they hear Bard. P.S. When I play Sorcerors they will beat the tar out of a wizard of the same level at 1st and all even levels upto 18. They will generally get beaten at all odd levels except 1st. The reasons for this are fairly obvious if you look at how many spells they get and when. As such, I do not feel they need to get a free feat.
Watchman 08-13-07, 11:41 AM	Then again, as Feats go Eschew Materials is about as close to "pure flavor" as it now gets - off the top of my head the about exact sole concrete use for it I can remember would be qualifying for the Dracolexi prestige class. And seeing as how it's classed [General] instead of something potentially sligthtly problematic like [Metamagic]... It's not like handwaving it for free to the "spontaneous caster" classes was going to have any practical effect around 99% of the time or so, and it would seem to fit the general concepts rather well. On the same vein, I don't really see why you couldn't use the thing to waive foci valued 1gp or less, given that they're just as much usually-ignored flavor details as the material components of the same nominal price.
Lawkeeper 08-13-07, 11:54 AM	Of the top of my head (so I might be wrong), there're also the master transmogrifist PrC.
1 ton ghost 08-13-07, 12:42 PM	apart from guarding your book, the pouch is the best attack you can land on a wiz/soc. provided he doesn't have Eschew Materials and main attack(s) call for material components. their BAB sucks, so even drawing an AoO, it's worth it to get his bag and save your hide. rather be hit w/ his dagger or his fireball? it should be valid. i mean, a super archer is hamstrung w/ a bow and no arrow, it should follow logically w/ magi. Hell, Clerics too: snatch that holy symbol if it's a requisite focus for spells. this is why they made Summon Holy Symbol (a new orison) and allow Sanctification; essentially blessings and prayers turn your shield, weapon, lucky coin, shoe, whatever into a holy symbol (Dungeonscape or Comp. Champ, can't remember which) as for Eschew...i would NOT grant anyone this feat for free...ever. it's far too useful/utilitarian. i'd let a mage take it as one of his bonus feats in lieu of Item Creation or Metamagic, but that's it. they never really make you keep track of every bit of "gum arabic, glass rods, etc." but they always insist upon the exact gp of silver dust/diamond dust, etc. are they both not valid? i mean, no sulphur=no fireball, and depending on situation, i'd rather have another big AE attack vs. a Prot. vs Evil also consider: - creatures w/ Scent...some components like the previously mentioned are um, a bit, fragrant and would get your mage zeroed double quick -environmental issues: getting drenched for example(pouch isn't waterproof, Haversack is, [thanks btw Lawkeeper]), alot of components could be ruined
Lawkeeper 08-13-07, 01:39 PM	Many spells don't have any material component (shapechange, meteor swarm, teleport, for examples), so attacking a magician's pouch is hardly a good attack, except if you know for sure that his only useful spells have material components. EDIT: BTW, getting anything from the Haversack is a move action... whereas from a pouch is part of the casting. So...
Watchman 08-13-07, 02:46 PM	Pff. I'm pretty sure most DMs fail to prosecute the utter inconvenience and misery Heavy Armours would actually inflict on their wearers as well. (There's good reasons infantry only ever wore that level of harness for serious set-piece field battles, and everyone made do with more convenient gear for day-to-day campaigning - nevermind now in difficult terrain, such as most wilderness adventuring tends to happen in.) Same thing if you ask me. Oh, and there's no particular reason why the spell component pouches wouldn't be waterproof by default (or available as such for a minor increase in price) to forestall the adventuring wizard finding out the bat guano he needs for a Fireball is now so much sludge - people made liquid-proof containers all the time for various purposes out of almost anything you care to think of. For example where available woven birch-bark was a popular choice for the peasants' liquid-container needs, and AFAIK was also used to weatherproof composite-structure bowstaves...
Lawkeeper 08-13-07, 03:00 PM	Rather than claiming a special quality of water pouches, just point me to the rule saying that component pouches or material components are ruined when drenched...;)
NeueRegel 08-13-07, 03:33 PM	Tarkin, you're entitled to your opinion, as always. Now, that said, Get your proverbial panties out of a bunch. Did I say, "We play that way?" No. Did I say, "It was a consensus?" No. Did I say, "I've asked many DM's?" No. (I have asked exactly one DM, the only other of our 12 players that also takes a turn DM'ing, and incidently he "does") So don't go trying to slander my name with putting words in my mouth like "most players" and/or "that I play with. I posted nor even implied any such thing. When I started visiting these boards three years ago, and most of the conversations were still about core rules, one of the things that struck me as I was trying to learn/transition from AD&D up to 3.5 was the numerous arguements about sorcerers being weaker than wizards, and that one of the offsets that was suggested at least once in every such thread was "free eschew materials" for the "poor sorcerer". I didn't think of it, make it up, or even espouse it. I just remember that it was a very common house rule. So stop trying to pick a fight where one never existed. Respectfully, NeueRegel
risner 08-13-07, 10:47 PM	1) I have to spend my GP to buy them. Is there any clarification on this? 2) alternatively, how much weight can a backpack hold? 3) and finally, how much do arrows cost without the quiver. Is the quiver free along with it. How much would I pay if I just wanted the arrows? 1) No, you must spend gp on them. The only free thing is your 1st pair of clothing and even then I believe there are restrictions on which ones you can take for free. 2) go to www.crystalkeep.com and get the equipment pdf. Inside it they list the container holding capacity and they also list the source (a RotG article on WotC site.) 3) The quiver is free, they cost the same with or without a quiver.
tiercel 08-13-07, 11:20 PM	Well.. you have to pay for a component pouch, just like you have to pay for rations. In my experience, DMs tend to track the component pouch about as hard as they track rations, i.e. in most situations very little or at all except in specific situations when they might be expected to be important. When you get right down to it, a component pouch is an amazing little device, given that you've got what, rose petals and dead spiders and bat guano and chipped mica and little iron rods and glass rods and bits of fur and skunk cabbage leaves and bits of pork rind and bits of spider webs and maybe even some diamond dust all in there and somehow, they dont all mix and mash together and you can always find what you need so quickly that it is a free action in the middle of spellcasting. (Plus, you have enough of each that you can cast each spell several times at least, without worrying.) It's just a rules simplifier. If you took it literally, you'd either have to track indiividual components (shades of 2e) or it would be a literal magic item with the properties of a very small handy haversack and possibly something like major creation going on.
1 ton ghost 08-14-07, 12:13 PM	most of these arguments i can understand and/or agree with. however, it's a pouch, like a money pouch, which are often pilfered, damaged, messed w/, etc. when/during item retrieval and messing w/ PC gear, IMO: -may/may not draw AoO -should be suseptible to obj. attacks (disarm, sunder, etc) i would not rule on waterproofing, glammering, whatever. they provide a bonus for that on spellbooks (at a cost), so i would say if you have the cash, you can juice your bag as well. probably a good investment because you and your gear will and should yield to the elements, attacks, everything, but you don't want to get so consumed in minutia that you lose focus of the greater conflict or fight. ex's)holy water can freeze and break the confines of a glass, iron can rust, falling damage can shatter your glass rods, etc. personally, i'm very detailed-oriented and i know the irony of applying realistic concepts to a "fantasy game" and all, but anything to add depth of play i encourage. not nitpicking over the exact contents for cheap components or the mechanics thereof (retrieval/use is Free Action, right?) vs. the Move Action to fetch stuff from a Haversack, belt, backpack which may/may not provoke AoO. it's kinda' assumed in your downtime you're researching your 2 new spell formulas you get upon leveling and maybe hitting the market/hedge mage shop for cheap ie)assumed components. but, you gotta pay for the expensive ones. they go somewhere, that is the pouch, it should and can be vulnerable. cars don't work w/out gas...or a capable driver for that matter
Callista 08-14-07, 02:09 PM	related note: spellbooks/most default "in game books" are 100pgs, yes? each spell level = 1 page and cantrips (1/2lvl) still = 1pg/ea wiz's start w/ All Cantrips plus the Int bonus, etc. Yes to all. how many Cantrips are there?All the ones in the PHB, to start with. I would allow a wizard to research or gain other cantrips, though. Ask your DM. when you max out 100pgs, do you have to then actually buy your 2nd book?Yes. But by then, it's a minor expenditure. are the contents of a Hewd's Hvrsck airtight? (does a book get wet w/in?)Yes, because it's an extradimensional space, just like a Bag of Holding. Living creatures placed inside can suffocate for lack of air.
Watchman 08-14-07, 02:23 PM	I always pictured the somewhat misnamed component pouch to basically be a specialised belt-type thingy with a lot of small compartements for different materials, complete with properly sophisticated flaps and what-have-you closure arangements for the contents to be quickly and easily available when needed and safely packed away the rest of the time. They make those sort of things for scrolls and potions too, and you can't claim there wouldn't be a market for such items - or any lack of craftsmen capable of constructing such contraptions. Incidentally, since the bat guano/sulphur combo for example is AFAIK only used for Fireballs, one would assume the mages used small, pre-made, dried chunks of the stuff. No fumbling around with icky bat crap and sulphur powder in the middle of a fight, just whip out one of those balls and let fly. Ditto for the other component combos; you'd think arcane spellcasters in particular had Sleight of Hand as a class skill just to account for the manual dexterity managing that stuff entails...
NeueRegel 08-14-07, 03:27 PM	I always pictured the somewhat misnamed component pouch to basically be a specialised belt-type thingy... ... you'd think arcane spellcasters in particular had Sleight of Hand as a class skill just to account for the manual dexterity managing that stuff entails... Ah, see, now there's the rub... Sorcerers should never be given a free class feat like eschew materials, gods forbid! But Wizards it seems get the free class feat "quick draw materials"... Go figure... Neue
Mindolin 08-14-07, 03:36 PM	Ah, see, now there's the rub... Sorcerers should never be given a free class feat like eschew materials, gods forbid! But Wizards it seems get the free class feat "quick draw materials"... Go figure... Neue What the heck are you talking about with that free class feature? Got any REAL evidence to back it up? Of course you have to buy everything, otherwise it would say you get something free, like the Samurai's Daisho or the Wizard's spellbook. Both have it mentioned that they start with it. And Eschew Materials can be pretty useful. It depends on play style of the DM in question.
Vharuck 08-14-07, 05:19 PM	And Eschew Materials can be pretty useful. It depends on play style of the DM in question. I'd say it's useful in character for not touching bat crap to cast frieball or eating a live spider when casting spiderclimb.
ToastedAmphibian 08-14-07, 07:22 PM	I'd say it's useful in character for not touching bat crap to cast frieball or eating a live spider when casting spiderclimb. Or if your character happens to lack hands (How many portions of wax can a leopard stick to teh bottoms of his paws? Ohwell, atleast he can always cast Cats Grace, no shortage of cat fur.....)