Are these balanced? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Are these balanced? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TyraaloftheFist
11-17-04, 05:08 PM My versions:
Ramberge/Wavy Bladed Rapier: 1d6,18-20,x3,Finessable Piercing/Slashing(player's choice)
Kris:1d4,18-20,x3,light weapon Piercing/Slashing (player's choice)
Masterwork Katana(My version): 1d8+1,17-20,x2, finessable, +1 to attack rolls, Slashing

Or these versions:
Ramberge:1d6+1,17-20,x2,Finessable Piercing and Slashing
Kris:1d4+1,17-20,x2,Light weapon, Piercing and Slashing
Masterwork Katana(Hacking Katana):1d10+1,19-20,x3, +1 to attack rolls, Slashing.

Or the Vargas version:
Ramberge:1d8,18-20,finessable piercing and slashing
Kris:1d6,18-20,light piercing and slashing
Masterwork Katana: too complicated for me, any suggestions?(No, Tony, I am not saying that that's what you said, it's too complicated for ME and my board of smilies)
Which is more balanced in you opinion? And what do you think they should cost? Also, what do you think of this enhancement?

Double-Masterwork(Impossible? Nah...really hard.)
+600 to single-masterwork price(900 gp altogether), +1 damage and +1 critical threat range?
Tony Vargas
11-17-04, 05:50 PM Base threat ranges broader than 18-20 aren't the greatest idea (the few times something's been published with a threat range like that, it's been erratted). Combining a threat other than 20, with a crit multiplier higher than two is a really bad idea: it increases critical damage in unintended ways.

A regular 20/x2 weapon, for instance, does double damage on a critical. The expected extra damage from criticals, then (ignoring confirmations for the moment), the chance of rolling a 20 (1:20, or 5%) times the average damage you can do with the weapon (which can be a /lot/ for a strong/specialized/whatever character with a magic weapon).

If you increase the threat range to 19-20/x2, you've doubled the extra damage from criticals, because they happen twice as often. Similarly, if you increase the crit to x3, you double the extra damage from the crit (double the weapon damage over the normal damage). If you do it again - 18-20/x2 or 20/x4 - you've trippled the extra damage. It's linear. Now, if you do both, and get a 19-20/x3 weapon, you haven't doubled or trippled the extra damage from crits compared to a 20/x2 weapon - you've quadroubpled it. Layer on keen and it's insane.

So both versions of all three weapons are beyond the pale.

The double-masterworking is also pretty questionable: 900gp for the functionality of a 2000gp magical weapon? Might be balanced in a campaign where magic items and anti-magic fields are very common, or one where DR/magic is very common among the PC's foes.

For a Kris or similar blade-pattern, I'd be enclined to go with an 18-20/x2 threat/crit. IRL, wavy blades like that aren't that effective, but they reputedly cause bleeding wounds, and frequent crits would fit that fairly well. A light version of such a weapon could do d6(18-20/x2)piercing, and a one-handed version d8. This is assuming they're exotic weapons, of course. (Legend also has it that you can kill with a kris simply by pointing it at the victim, and injur someone by driving the blade of a kris into his footprints - enchantments to do that sort of thing might be cool. 'Throwing & Returning' (with a little glossing over) could cover the first one...)

A 'rapier' with a wavy blade pattern probably wouldn't work at all. It would lose much of it's lightness and flexibility, and wouldn't really be a rapier anymore - it's not really a candidate for the treatement.

The katana, of course, is statted as a masterwork bastard sword. If you used 'double-masterworking' there's no reason you couldn't double-masterwork a bastard sword and call it a 'masterwork katana' (but then there'd be no double-masterwork-katanas, and you're back to square one). Better to allow that there are 'inferior' katanas that are ordinary bastard swords, and be done with it. :rolleyes:
TyraaloftheFist
11-17-04, 07:35 PM many good points...I hadn't hought of it like THAT before, that is scary. Also, good ideas...maybe for the injuring on the first one there could be an illusionary blade in your hand as the kris propels itself at the enemy, and the second one could be some sort of explosive line that follows the target...? Also, remember that nothing on the double-masterworking is magical, so it doesn't bypass DR, and doesn't stack with magics. I thought the double-masterworking idea up as part of a class, the Kensai, that I created a while ago, and it seemed like a good idea at the time...BTW, I posted the Kensai without knowing about there being a Kensai class, it's probably pretty different...why does everybody think wavy-bladed rapiers would be ineffective? The way I see it, they make big holes, not punctures, and I didn't know rapiers were supposed to be very flexible. I also didn't know that they would be heavier. About the double-masterwork bastard sword, bastard swords weigh more and are shaped differently. Double-masterwork katanas...that'd be a triple-masterwork bastard sword...wow, this is getting complicated. Back to the kris, it only deals 1d4 damage and you can't throw it at all. That seems alright to me, but I'm weird anyway. Thanks for pointing all that scary stuff out, I'll fix that very soon.:D
Tony Vargas
11-17-04, 07:59 PM Also, remember that nothing on the double-masterworking is magical, so it doesn't bypass DR, and doesn't stack with magics. Of course. Conversely, it would continue to function in an area of anti-magic, and could accept spells that can't be cast on magical weapons, or temporarily supress the weapon's magic. (IIRC, there are more than a couple of those).

why does everybody think wavy-bladed rapiers would be ineffective? The way I see it, they make big holes, not punctures, and I didn't know rapiers were supposed to be very flexible. I also didn't know that they would be heavier. Well, unless the weapon's made shorter in overall length, the wavy blade would be heavier. And, though I'm no authority, yeah, rapiers are supposed to flex (instead of break). I guess a heavier blade doesn't need to flex to avoid breaking easily. :shrug: So, conceptually, it would seem that a kris-rapier hybrid wouldn't make much sense. In addition, mechanically, if you consider the blade pattern to be best modeled with a broader threat range, then rapier, again, is not a candiate, as it already has the best feasible threat range.

Double-masterwork katanas...that'd be a triple-masterwork bastard sword...wow, this is getting complicated.

[QUOTE]
Back to the kris, it only deals 1d4 damage and you can't throw it at all. That seems alright to me, but I'm weird anyway. A d4 (18-20/x2) piercing, light martial version of the kris would strike me as fine - it'd be mechanically almost identical to the kukri, except for the damage type, and balanced.

Thanks for pointing all that scary stuff out, I'll fix that very soon.:D No problem, good luck on your next attempt. ;)
Cathon
11-17-04, 08:25 PM Well, the power of rapiers comes from concentrated force at their tip on a thrust. You wouldn't want a wavy bladed rapier as a piercing weapon any more than you would want a wavy bladed nail to pound into your wall. That kind of edge is more to make wounds bleed out more, and you would generally put it on a thick bladed weapon for slashing (The flamberge was a wavy bladed greatsword used in germany and switzerland, if I'm not mistaken). A Kris is practically an equilateral triangle in order to still have structural integrity.

A wavy bladed weapon might do more damage than a regular weapon because of ragged wounds. A realistic downside would be making them easier to sunder or disarm since you can apply more force on the inside of the curve, but that is a poor balancing factor for damage in D&D.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TyraaloftheFist 11-17-04, 05:08 PM	My versions: Ramberge/Wavy Bladed Rapier: 1d6,18-20,x3,Finessable Piercing/Slashing(player's choice) Kris:1d4,18-20,x3,light weapon Piercing/Slashing (player's choice) Masterwork Katana(My version): 1d8+1,17-20,x2, finessable, +1 to attack rolls, Slashing Or these versions: Ramberge:1d6+1,17-20,x2,Finessable Piercing and Slashing Kris:1d4+1,17-20,x2,Light weapon, Piercing and Slashing Masterwork Katana(Hacking Katana):1d10+1,19-20,x3, +1 to attack rolls, Slashing. Or the Vargas version: Ramberge:1d8,18-20,finessable piercing and slashing Kris:1d6,18-20,light piercing and slashing Masterwork Katana: too complicated for me, any suggestions?(No, Tony, I am not saying that that's what you said, it's too complicated for ME and my board of smilies) Which is more balanced in you opinion? And what do you think they should cost? Also, what do you think of this enhancement? Double-Masterwork(Impossible? Nah...really hard.) +600 to single-masterwork price(900 gp altogether), +1 damage and +1 critical threat range?
Tony Vargas 11-17-04, 05:50 PM	Base threat ranges broader than 18-20 aren't the greatest idea (the few times something's been published with a threat range like that, it's been erratted). Combining a threat other than 20, with a crit multiplier higher than two is a really bad idea: it increases critical damage in unintended ways. A regular 20/x2 weapon, for instance, does double damage on a critical. The expected extra damage from criticals, then (ignoring confirmations for the moment), the chance of rolling a 20 (1:20, or 5%) times the average damage you can do with the weapon (which can be a /lot/ for a strong/specialized/whatever character with a magic weapon). If you increase the threat range to 19-20/x2, you've doubled the extra damage from criticals, because they happen twice as often. Similarly, if you increase the crit to x3, you double the extra damage from the crit (double the weapon damage over the normal damage). If you do it again - 18-20/x2 or 20/x4 - you've trippled the extra damage. It's linear. Now, if you do both, and get a 19-20/x3 weapon, you haven't doubled or trippled the extra damage from crits compared to a 20/x2 weapon - you've quadroubpled it. Layer on keen and it's insane. So both versions of all three weapons are beyond the pale. The double-masterworking is also pretty questionable: 900gp for the functionality of a 2000gp magical weapon? Might be balanced in a campaign where magic items and anti-magic fields are very common, or one where DR/magic is very common among the PC's foes. For a Kris or similar blade-pattern, I'd be enclined to go with an 18-20/x2 threat/crit. IRL, wavy blades like that aren't that effective, but they reputedly cause bleeding wounds, and frequent crits would fit that fairly well. A light version of such a weapon could do d6(18-20/x2)piercing, and a one-handed version d8. This is assuming they're exotic weapons, of course. (Legend also has it that you can kill with a kris simply by pointing it at the victim, and injur someone by driving the blade of a kris into his footprints - enchantments to do that sort of thing might be cool. 'Throwing & Returning' (with a little glossing over) could cover the first one...) A 'rapier' with a wavy blade pattern probably wouldn't work at all. It would lose much of it's lightness and flexibility, and wouldn't really be a rapier anymore - it's not really a candidate for the treatement. The katana, of course, is statted as a masterwork bastard sword. If you used 'double-masterworking' there's no reason you couldn't double-masterwork a bastard sword and call it a 'masterwork katana' (but then there'd be no double-masterwork-katanas, and you're back to square one). Better to allow that there are 'inferior' katanas that are ordinary bastard swords, and be done with it. :rolleyes:
TyraaloftheFist 11-17-04, 07:35 PM	many good points...I hadn't hought of it like THAT before, that is scary. Also, good ideas...maybe for the injuring on the first one there could be an illusionary blade in your hand as the kris propels itself at the enemy, and the second one could be some sort of explosive line that follows the target...? Also, remember that nothing on the double-masterworking is magical, so it doesn't bypass DR, and doesn't stack with magics. I thought the double-masterworking idea up as part of a class, the Kensai, that I created a while ago, and it seemed like a good idea at the time...BTW, I posted the Kensai without knowing about there being a Kensai class, it's probably pretty different...why does everybody think wavy-bladed rapiers would be ineffective? The way I see it, they make big holes, not punctures, and I didn't know rapiers were supposed to be very flexible. I also didn't know that they would be heavier. About the double-masterwork bastard sword, bastard swords weigh more and are shaped differently. Double-masterwork katanas...that'd be a triple-masterwork bastard sword...wow, this is getting complicated. Back to the kris, it only deals 1d4 damage and you can't throw it at all. That seems alright to me, but I'm weird anyway. Thanks for pointing all that scary stuff out, I'll fix that very soon.:D
Tony Vargas 11-17-04, 07:59 PM	Also, remember that nothing on the double-masterworking is magical, so it doesn't bypass DR, and doesn't stack with magics. Of course. Conversely, it would continue to function in an area of anti-magic, and could accept spells that can't be cast on magical weapons, or temporarily supress the weapon's magic. (IIRC, there are more than a couple of those). why does everybody think wavy-bladed rapiers would be ineffective? The way I see it, they make big holes, not punctures, and I didn't know rapiers were supposed to be very flexible. I also didn't know that they would be heavier. Well, unless the weapon's made shorter in overall length, the wavy blade would be heavier. And, though I'm no authority, yeah, rapiers are supposed to flex (instead of break). I guess a heavier blade doesn't need to flex to avoid breaking easily. :shrug: So, conceptually, it would seem that a kris-rapier hybrid wouldn't make much sense. In addition, mechanically, if you consider the blade pattern to be best modeled with a broader threat range, then rapier, again, is not a candiate, as it already has the best feasible threat range. Double-masterwork katanas...that'd be a triple-masterwork bastard sword...wow, this is getting complicated. [QUOTE] Back to the kris, it only deals 1d4 damage and you can't throw it at all. That seems alright to me, but I'm weird anyway. A d4 (18-20/x2) piercing, light martial version of the kris would strike me as fine - it'd be mechanically almost identical to the kukri, except for the damage type, and balanced. Thanks for pointing all that scary stuff out, I'll fix that very soon.:D No problem, good luck on your next attempt. ;)
Cathon 11-17-04, 08:25 PM	Well, the power of rapiers comes from concentrated force at their tip on a thrust. You wouldn't want a wavy bladed rapier as a piercing weapon any more than you would want a wavy bladed nail to pound into your wall. That kind of edge is more to make wounds bleed out more, and you would generally put it on a thick bladed weapon for slashing (The flamberge was a wavy bladed greatsword used in germany and switzerland, if I'm not mistaken). A Kris is practically an equilateral triangle in order to still have structural integrity. A wavy bladed weapon might do more damage than a regular weapon because of ragged wounds. A realistic downside would be making them easier to sunder or disarm since you can apply more force on the inside of the curve, but that is a poor balancing factor for damage in D&D.