Armor and heat injuries [Archive] - Wizards Community

Armor and heat injuries [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Fiery_Overlord
06-18-05, 02:50 PM Speaking as a person who has served in the modern day military who was stationed in 130F degree heat, yeah you wear armor even in that heat. Sure we had the connivance of potable water to help avoid heat injuries, but it basically comes down to endure the heat or possibly endure bullet wounds. Hmmm... The choice isn't that hard. Yeah, we had a unit attached to us that was there when it got up to 140F (10 degrees less that you are legal allowed to serve beef in the US) and they had two people sweat themselves to death while they slept but they were not wearing armor at the time. Being awake and drinking water and making sure you also get some salt is vital to staying alive in heat like that. After that incident those who had the shift that slept in the day were only allowed to sleep in 4 hour shifts before they were woke up and forced to drink. Things were better for my unit they used modern things like portable air coolers to make sleeping in the day much safer and endurable. We had a person permanently injured caused by heat, it caused some kind of chemical imbalance and he was shipped out of country. He was a really kewl guy too, anyway we had a couple others fall out due to over-hydration because their salt intake was deficient, and they sweated out all their electrolytes.

AND WE STILL WORE HEAVY AND HOT BALISTIC VESTS AND FULL DCUs!

If I had a choice? Yeah, armor to keep the bullets out of my vitals and cloths to keep the disease caring insects off my skin. They have bugs over there that carry things I would never want to mess with. (Biblical plague kinda' stuff) I personally drank like 6 liters of water just during my shift many, many times.

The reason I am posting this because I saw a medical professional say heavy hot metal armor is implausible in fantasy hot regions, I would not argue that its medically correct that it is unsafe, but from a soldiers perspective who has done it himself, people wear armor in hot weather. Sure it may be not healthy but soldiers endure many things that take a toll on the body to be ready for combat. Sure soldiers took the armor off anytime they could but you still wore it when it was time.

In a fantasy setting where you have items that could summon water not unlike advanced logistics of the modern day, (if not better and more reliably) it would not be too unlike modern day soldiers. If I was a fantasy setting general I would demand a Decanter of Endless Water or two before marching my men across a desert. Especially for the small price of the items.
Planar Wanderer
06-18-05, 04:11 PM Just out of interest, what are DCUs? I haven't come across the term before (but then I'm not a soldier).

Not to argue with you as such (and I have no specific knowledge of these things so feel free to point out all errors in the text that may follow) A ballistic jacket is (I believe) several layers of Kevlar and metal sheeting designed to absorb kinetic energy, whilst they are bulky and (probably) very hot and uncomfortable to wear, remember that to wear plate armour you need your undergarments (which you probably wear as a soldier as well :D ) then several layers of thick cloth (to prevent rubbing), a mail coat (to cover gaps at joints etc) followed by the plate itself so I think (emphasis on think) that you might have a couple of extra layers with the plate, not to mention the air which is itself quite a good insulator.

Also whilst decanters of endless water are good, I doubt the stuff is isotonic so you might run into problems with electrolites. (but with wands of prestidigation I suppose you could solve that and D&D doesn't really take that sort of thing into account anyway).

The thing is not all soldiers did wear their armour in mediaevil times, (I believe there have been skeletons unearthed of soldiers with injuries consistant with them not wearing helmets etc. even those of people known to have had helmets (relatively important aristocrats)) simply because it was too uncomfortable to wear armour for long periods of time.
Dalthbar
06-18-05, 04:30 PM DCUs are the daily combat uniforms. I may be wrong on the "daily" for "D", but the CU is right. E.g., the normal clothes that they will wear when in the field. It's more than a little bit of gear!
Planar Wanderer
06-18-05, 04:36 PM :banghead: now I feel silly.... that is.... incredibly obvious (thanks Dalthbar:) )

EDIT: In an attempt to salvage some credibility I will say I was more familiar with the the term DPMs than DCUs
Fiery_Overlord
06-19-05, 03:43 PM "Desert Combat Uniforms", BDU is the standard woodland camouflage "Battle Dress Uniform". Sorry for using jargon.

Most military food contain a high degree of salt either as a preservative or for flavor so electrolyte levels are only an issue if you skip eating or over drink, something tempting to do in the heat as it kills your appetite. In that kind of heat you will sweat water as fast as you drink it. Lets put it this way after 6 liters I never need a latrine break during dayshift. If you drink too much without a salt supplement you are in danger of over hydrating. (I never liked V8s before but I learned to like them because I craved the salt) Also I know the phrase "worth your salt" originates from Roman soldiers being paid in salt. Also most of old style meat preserving techniques relied on salting or smoking.

As a side note away from practical real life experience and application, here is what the SRD has to say about heat injuries:
"HEAT DANGERS
Heat deals nonlethal damage that cannot be recovered until the character gets cooled off (reaches shade, survives until nightfall, gets doused in water, is targeted by endure elements, and so forth). Once rendered unconscious through the accumulation of nonlethal damage, the character begins to take lethal damage at the same rate.
A character in very hot conditions (above 90° F) must make a Fortitude saving throw each hour (DC 15, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d4 points of nonlethal damage. Characters wearing heavy clothing or armor of any sort take a –4 penalty on their saves. A character with the Survival skill may receive a bonus on this saving throw and may be able to apply this bonus to other characters as well (see the skill description). Characters reduced to unconsciousness begin taking lethal damage (1d4 points per hour).
In severe heat (above 110° F), a character must make a Fortitude save once every 10 minutes (DC 15, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d4 points of nonlethal damage. Characters wearing heavy clothing or armor of any sort take a –4 penalty on their saves. A character with the Survival skill may receive a bonus on this saving throw and may be able to apply this bonus to other characters as well. Characters reduced to unconsciousness begin taking lethal damage (1d4 points per each 10-minute period).
A character who takes any nonlethal damage from heat exposure now suffers from heatstroke and is fatigued.
These penalties end when the character recovers the nonlethal damage she took from the heat.
Extreme heat (air temperature over 140° F, fire, boiling water, lava) deals lethal damage. Breathing air in these temperatures deals 1d6 points of damage per minute (no save). In addition, a character must make a Fortitude save every 5 minutes (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or take 1d4 points of nonlethal damage. Those wearing heavy clothing or any sort of armor take a –4 penalty on their saves. In addition, those wearing metal armor or coming into contact with very hot metal are affected as if by a heat metal spell.
Boiling water deals 1d6 points of scalding damage, unless the character is fully immersed, in which case it deals 10d6 points of damage per round of exposure." -SRD

Fairly well written in my opinion. I think the bolded temperature is a little low for starting taking lethal just for breathing the air. I would raise it 10 degrees. But other than that seems perfectly fine for game mechanics.
Vahenir
06-19-05, 10:08 PM Even given real life experience, it's a moot point to say armour couldn't be worn in heat. - Because it was. Plain and simple. If it was as dangerous as some make it out to be - entire cultures would have died out pretty quickly.

Unless someone wants to say that Egypt and Afganistan aren't "hot."

I think the major contention people have with wearing MEDIEVAL armour in the heat was that Medieval armour was primarily made up of heavy leather and exposed metal. That stuff will heat up in the most god-aweful way when forced to endure constant heat and direct sunlight.

But it's still a moot point, because even cultures solely living in those hot areas had metal, or otherwise heavy and uncomfortable, armour. Period. And no one can contest that fact.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fiery_Overlord 06-18-05, 02:50 PM	Speaking as a person who has served in the modern day military who was stationed in 130F degree heat, yeah you wear armor even in that heat. Sure we had the connivance of potable water to help avoid heat injuries, but it basically comes down to endure the heat or possibly endure bullet wounds. Hmmm... The choice isn't that hard. Yeah, we had a unit attached to us that was there when it got up to 140F (10 degrees less that you are legal allowed to serve beef in the US) and they had two people sweat themselves to death while they slept but they were not wearing armor at the time. Being awake and drinking water and making sure you also get some salt is vital to staying alive in heat like that. After that incident those who had the shift that slept in the day were only allowed to sleep in 4 hour shifts before they were woke up and forced to drink. Things were better for my unit they used modern things like portable air coolers to make sleeping in the day much safer and endurable. We had a person permanently injured caused by heat, it caused some kind of chemical imbalance and he was shipped out of country. He was a really kewl guy too, anyway we had a couple others fall out due to over-hydration because their salt intake was deficient, and they sweated out all their electrolytes. AND WE STILL WORE HEAVY AND HOT BALISTIC VESTS AND FULL DCUs! If I had a choice? Yeah, armor to keep the bullets out of my vitals and cloths to keep the disease caring insects off my skin. They have bugs over there that carry things I would never want to mess with. (Biblical plague kinda' stuff) I personally drank like 6 liters of water just during my shift many, many times. The reason I am posting this because I saw a medical professional say heavy hot metal armor is implausible in fantasy hot regions, I would not argue that its medically correct that it is unsafe, but from a soldiers perspective who has done it himself, people wear armor in hot weather. Sure it may be not healthy but soldiers endure many things that take a toll on the body to be ready for combat. Sure soldiers took the armor off anytime they could but you still wore it when it was time. In a fantasy setting where you have items that could summon water not unlike advanced logistics of the modern day, (if not better and more reliably) it would not be too unlike modern day soldiers. If I was a fantasy setting general I would demand a Decanter of Endless Water or two before marching my men across a desert. Especially for the small price of the items.
Planar Wanderer 06-18-05, 04:11 PM	Just out of interest, what are DCUs? I haven't come across the term before (but then I'm not a soldier). Not to argue with you as such (and I have no specific knowledge of these things so feel free to point out all errors in the text that may follow) A ballistic jacket is (I believe) several layers of Kevlar and metal sheeting designed to absorb kinetic energy, whilst they are bulky and (probably) very hot and uncomfortable to wear, remember that to wear plate armour you need your undergarments (which you probably wear as a soldier as well :D ) then several layers of thick cloth (to prevent rubbing), a mail coat (to cover gaps at joints etc) followed by the plate itself so I think (emphasis on think) that you might have a couple of extra layers with the plate, not to mention the air which is itself quite a good insulator. Also whilst decanters of endless water are good, I doubt the stuff is isotonic so you might run into problems with electrolites. (but with wands of prestidigation I suppose you could solve that and D&D doesn't really take that sort of thing into account anyway). The thing is not all soldiers did wear their armour in mediaevil times, (I believe there have been skeletons unearthed of soldiers with injuries consistant with them not wearing helmets etc. even those of people known to have had helmets (relatively important aristocrats)) simply because it was too uncomfortable to wear armour for long periods of time.
Dalthbar 06-18-05, 04:30 PM	DCUs are the daily combat uniforms. I may be wrong on the "daily" for "D", but the CU is right. E.g., the normal clothes that they will wear when in the field. It's more than a little bit of gear!
Planar Wanderer 06-18-05, 04:36 PM	:banghead: now I feel silly.... that is.... incredibly obvious (thanks Dalthbar:) ) EDIT: In an attempt to salvage some credibility I will say I was more familiar with the the term DPMs than DCUs
Fiery_Overlord 06-19-05, 03:43 PM	"Desert Combat Uniforms", BDU is the standard woodland camouflage "Battle Dress Uniform". Sorry for using jargon. Most military food contain a high degree of salt either as a preservative or for flavor so electrolyte levels are only an issue if you skip eating or over drink, something tempting to do in the heat as it kills your appetite. In that kind of heat you will sweat water as fast as you drink it. Lets put it this way after 6 liters I never need a latrine break during dayshift. If you drink too much without a salt supplement you are in danger of over hydrating. (I never liked V8s before but I learned to like them because I craved the salt) Also I know the phrase "worth your salt" originates from Roman soldiers being paid in salt. Also most of old style meat preserving techniques relied on salting or smoking. As a side note away from practical real life experience and application, here is what the SRD has to say about heat injuries: "HEAT DANGERS Heat deals nonlethal damage that cannot be recovered until the character gets cooled off (reaches shade, survives until nightfall, gets doused in water, is targeted by endure elements, and so forth). Once rendered unconscious through the accumulation of nonlethal damage, the character begins to take lethal damage at the same rate. A character in very hot conditions (above 90° F) must make a Fortitude saving throw each hour (DC 15, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d4 points of nonlethal damage. Characters wearing heavy clothing or armor of any sort take a –4 penalty on their saves. A character with the Survival skill may receive a bonus on this saving throw and may be able to apply this bonus to other characters as well (see the skill description). Characters reduced to unconsciousness begin taking lethal damage (1d4 points per hour). In severe heat (above 110° F), a character must make a Fortitude save once every 10 minutes (DC 15, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d4 points of nonlethal damage. Characters wearing heavy clothing or armor of any sort take a –4 penalty on their saves. A character with the Survival skill may receive a bonus on this saving throw and may be able to apply this bonus to other characters as well. Characters reduced to unconsciousness begin taking lethal damage (1d4 points per each 10-minute period). A character who takes any nonlethal damage from heat exposure now suffers from heatstroke and is fatigued. These penalties end when the character recovers the nonlethal damage she took from the heat. Extreme heat (air temperature over 140° F, fire, boiling water, lava) deals lethal damage. Breathing air in these temperatures deals 1d6 points of damage per minute (no save). In addition, a character must make a Fortitude save every 5 minutes (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or take 1d4 points of nonlethal damage. Those wearing heavy clothing or any sort of armor take a –4 penalty on their saves. In addition, those wearing metal armor or coming into contact with very hot metal are affected as if by a heat metal spell. Boiling water deals 1d6 points of scalding damage, unless the character is fully immersed, in which case it deals 10d6 points of damage per round of exposure." -SRD Fairly well written in my opinion. I think the bolded temperature is a little low for starting taking lethal just for breathing the air. I would raise it 10 degrees. But other than that seems perfectly fine for game mechanics.
Vahenir 06-19-05, 10:08 PM	Even given real life experience, it's a moot point to say armour couldn't be worn in heat. - Because it was. Plain and simple. If it was as dangerous as some make it out to be - entire cultures would have died out pretty quickly. Unless someone wants to say that Egypt and Afganistan aren't "hot." I think the major contention people have with wearing MEDIEVAL armour in the heat was that Medieval armour was primarily made up of heavy leather and exposed metal. That stuff will heat up in the most god-aweful way when forced to endure constant heat and direct sunlight. But it's still a moot point, because even cultures solely living in those hot areas had metal, or otherwise heavy and uncomfortable, armour. Period. And no one can contest that fact.