Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Spikes01k 07-04-07, 12:21 PM	After reviewing the rules form the DMG I came to a conclusion, at a conclusion point, all fighter classes, such as the warrior or samurai, should ignore the max dexterity bonus to armor. With the exception of exotic armor, which people do have to pay a feat for, the highest AC you can normally get from armor alone is 8. Now look at bracers of defense they get a +8 to armor. Also, if I am reading the rules correctly you can also add another item of armor for enhancement bonuses, the same as armor, so with a normal person wearing armor, they are effectively left in the perpetual dust of the no max dexterity bonus to armor of the bracers. So sense fighters are supposed to have BETTER AC than casters I now see that the ability to eliminate maximum dex bonus to AC should be considered for most front line based classes, or a vastly more restricted bonus from bracers of armor. Does anyone else see this?
MacTirdubh 07-04-07, 12:40 PM	+8 bracers are significantly more expensive then just plain full plate armor. Besides you can enchant the full plate upto +5 giving you a +13 to AC instead of +8. You can not enchant the Bracers any further nor can you wear any other armor so you are stuck at the +8. For the money you would spend on +8 bracers (64k if iirc) I could have +5 Full plate (approx 27k), +5 Large Shield (approx 25.4k), a +2 Ring of Protection (8k), and a +1 Amulet of Natural Armor (2k) with mone left over. So it boils down to +8 vs +23. That means you would have to have a Dex of 40 to get the same AC (42 if the fighter has a dex of 12 or higher). Not many casters are going to have that. (Note: I don't have my books infront of me so the prices might vary). So it looks like the front line fighter does have a higher AC.
Spikes01k 07-04-07, 12:49 PM	Question. Isn't the bonus from bacors an armor bonus. And can't an enhancement bonus stack with an armor bonus? What rules is there that you can't place an enhancement bonus on another item and have just stack with the bacors. heres a link if you don't have your books in front of you that might help. http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm
Platstud 07-04-07, 01:19 PM	Question. Isn't the bonus from bacors an armor bonus. And can't an enhancement bonus stack with an armor bonus? What rules is there that you can't place an enhancement bonus on another item and have just stack with the bacors. heres a link if you don't have your books in front of you that might help. http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm Enhancement bonuses to armour work slightly differently. They are actually enhancement bonuses to the armour bonus to AC and therefore do not stack with the armour bonus. There are other types of AC bonuses(insight, deflection, natural armour, etc.), but they cost more and classes wearing armour have just as much access to these as those wearing bracers.
Majick 07-04-07, 01:27 PM	Hell, if you don't ever want to move in combat take the exotic armors and shields Mountain Plate and Extreme Shield +13 to AC before enchantments, and the Extreme Shield is superior to Tower shield because you get +3 AC and no attack penalty, so a Combat Expertise character can get the AC from the Extreme Shield and another +1 AC from Combat Expertise for only a -1 penalty to hit, not the -2 imposed by the hulking Tower Shield
DocBeard 07-04-07, 01:32 PM	Enhancement bonuses (for lack of a better term) enhance something, i.e., they make it better. In the case of an enhancement bonus to armor, it makes make the armor bonus better. It is not actually a completely separate bonus to your armor class so much as it is an improvement of an existing bonus. In other words, a +1 mithral chain shirt does not grant a +4 armor bonus to AC and a +1 enhancement bonus to AC, it grants a +5 armor bonus to AC. Now, as to whether a suit of +5 full plate armor is superior to a +8 set of bracers of armor, that all depends. If you're a low-dexterity fighter, then obviously the full plate is superior. If you're a high-dexterity rogue (or, better yet, a high-dexterity high-wisdom high-intelligence monk/duelist for some reason) the bracers are obviously going to be superior. Now, it might be worthwhile to wear a nice set of bracers *and* some light armor, if you really wanted a lot of armor special abilities. (Though, come to think of it, probably not, given the price of the bracers.)
MacTirdubh 07-04-07, 02:02 PM	Question. Isn't the bonus from bacors an armor bonus. And can't an enhancement bonus stack with an armor bonus? What rules is there that you can't place an enhancement bonus on another item and have just stack with the bacors. heres a link if you don't have your books in front of you that might help. http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm Even if that is true the cost of said item is so high that multiple items can be bought for the same price resulting in a higher base AC w/o ability modifiers. The extra 25k for enhancing the bracers (if it is even allowable) gives 89k to play with. You could buy +5 full plate (26.65k), +5 heavy steel shield (25.17k), Ring of protection +3 (18k), and an Amulet of Natural Armor +3 (18k) with money left over (1180gp). This gives you a +26 to AC instead of +13. That still requires a 36 Dex (or 22 dex, 24 wis or 20 dex, 18 wis, 18 int) to get to the same AC bonus (assuming the armor character has a 10-11 dex...anything higher than that bump the bracers dex by 2). Those are all relatively high stats that are not easy to get by normal rolling methods or standard point buy. So I am not exactly sure how a frontline fighter's AC is left in the dust by this.
BugHunter 07-04-07, 07:31 PM	The max dex to AC can also be increased by making the armor out of mithral and adding the property of Nimbleness (MIC page 13).
Spikes01k 07-06-07, 08:45 PM	This appears to be all fine and dandy till you realise that they pick up a monk's belt, which they can fully use with their bracors and you can't wearing your Full plate and are required a +3 enhancment to classify it as light armor.
MacTirdubh 07-06-07, 08:58 PM	Great so you spend another 13k to get a +1 AC more. With that 13k plus what was left over before the Ring of Protection goes to +4 increasing the frontline fighter's AC still leaving the gap at 13 AC in favor of the armored fighter. Again the armored fighter leaves teh bracer guy in the dust unless the bracer character has exceptionally high stats.
Spikes01k 07-06-07, 09:27 PM	Great so you spend another 13k to get a +1 AC more. With that 13k plus what was left over before the Ring of Protection goes to +4 increasing the frontline fighter's AC still leaving the gap at 13 AC in favor of the armored fighter. Again the armored fighter leaves teh bracer guy in the dust unless the bracer character has exceptionally high stats. Dosn't a monk's belt grant their wisdom bonus to AC? Then they also can get another +1 for a +2 wisdom item.
jaelis 07-06-07, 09:33 PM	Spikes, show us a build. A non-armored character can indeed get a quite good AC, but it's expensive and you need a bunch of good ability scores. The armored fighter can probably do better, but normally doesn't try that hard... he puts his points and his money into offense, so he can kill things. Usually that is the right choice. One thing that does stick out is a druid using wildshape to get a big natural armor and dex bonus, then putting on a monk's belt and a bunch of other buffs. That can get kind of silly. But I think the problem there is with wildshape, not armor. If it bothers you, just use the PHBII shapeshift rules instead. Note that to get a really broken AC, you would use some optimization tricks. Try searching the character optimization boards, I know they get into the 100s at least.
Palomides 07-06-07, 09:47 PM	Magic armor bonuses are enhancement bonuses, never rise above +5, and stack with regular armor bonuses (and with shield and magic shield enhancement bonuses) SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm) Bracers of Armor These items appear to be wrist or arm guards. They surround the wearer with an invisible but tangible field of force, granting him an armor bonus of +1 to +8, just as though he were wearing armor. Both bracers must be worn for the magic to be effective. Armors, in each category, have about the same sum of armor bonus and dex bonus. Since wizards cannot use armor they must spend a lot more money to get spells or items to raise their armor class. Also don't forget that fighters have, generally, a lot more hit point than wizards.
Ketone 07-06-07, 10:32 PM	Dosn't a monk's belt grant their wisdom bonus to AC? Nope.
jaelis 07-06-07, 10:38 PM	Nope. Yes it does, if you are unarmored. Does a monk’s belt (Dungeon Master’s Guide, 248) grant a non-monk wearer his Wisdom bonus to AC? Yes. Note, however, that the wearer gains the AC bonus only when unarmored and unencumbered, since the belt clearly states that “this AC bonus functions just like the monk’s AC bonus."
MacTirdubh 07-06-07, 10:47 PM	Dosn't a monk's belt grant their wisdom bonus to AC? Then they also can get another +1 for a +2 wisdom item. Yes it does grant them their Wis bonus to AC but the bracer character still needs to make up a 13 point deficit. This means they need a 24 Dex and a 22 Wis just to equal the armored fighter. And even if they have a +2 Wis item, the armored fighter gets a +2 Dex item basically negating that +1 bonus gained. So still a 13 point deficit which is hard to overcome with anything but a high point buy build or more magical items (from which the armored fighter can increase his AC as well).
Spikes01k 07-07-07, 12:20 AM	Dex 14+2=16 mod +3 Wis 14+2=16 mod +3 Bracers of Armor 4 (Found of enemy) Robe of Deflection (Body) +3 (Found +2 enhanced to +3 10,000 gp) Natural Armor (Neck) +2 (Found +1, made +2 6000 gp) Non slot continual Shield (shield) +4 (8000) Monks Belt +3 (13000) Dex +2 (Hand) (4000 gp) Wis +2 (Face) (4000 gp) AC: 10, +4 Armor, +4 shield, +3 Dex, +2 Natural, +3 Deflection, +4 Doge= AC 30 Could I see a make up at about the same cost that a fighter can do with armor and shield even?
metatheurgist 07-07-07, 02:28 AM	Where do people see the word enhancement in the description for Bracers of Armor any way? It just says Armor bonus, like what armor normally provides, no enhancement at all. Compare that to the description of Amulet of Natural Armor where it does say enhancment.
runestar 07-07-07, 03:41 AM	Bracers of Armor 4 (Found of enemy) Robe of Deflection (Body) +3 (Found +2 enhanced to +3 10,000 gp) Natural Armor (Neck) +2 (Found +1, made +2 6000 gp) Non slot continual Shield (shield) +4 (8000) Monks Belt +3 (13000) Dex +2 (Hand) (4000 gp) Wis +2 (Face) (4000 gp) AC: 10, +4 Armor, +4 shield, +3 Dex, +2 Natural, +3 Deflection, +4 Doge= AC 30 I disagree with your non-slot shield spell as that is not listed as a valid magic item anywhere. Closest you can have is a ring of force shield, which grants just a +2 shield bonus. A fighter can easily top that. +4 full plate (17650), +2 amulet of NA and +2 ring of deflection, +1 dex, +1 shield = AC 30AC.
Merestil Haye 07-07-07, 07:21 AM	Your costs are all off. When evaluating your wealth, you count all your magic items at full value, even if you found them.Bracers of Armor 4 (Found of enemy) - 16,000gp Robe of Deflection (Body) +3 (Found +2 enhanced to +3 10,000 gp) - Total 18,000gp Natural Armor (Neck) +2 (Found +1, made +2 6000 gp) - Total 8,000gp Non slot continual Shield (shield) +4 (8000) - Wrong guideline for pricing. Monks Belt +3 (13000) Dex +2 (Hand) (4000 gp) Wis +2 (Face) (4000 gp) So far we're at a cost of 63,000gp and that doesn't count your "non-slotted shield item." My guess is that you've priced it on the basis that it's a continuous effect from a first level spell at CL1 with a duration in minutes per level. That is not correct. The pricing guidelines tell you to start by looking to see if an item already provides the same sort of power that your proposed item can. We can in fact find something to start with. The cost of enhancing a shield's Shield bonus to AC is 1000 * bonus 2. This is a good starting point. Such an item as you propose would bear the same relation to Shield enhancement as Bracers of Armour do to Armour enhancement. That would make your proposed item worth 16,000gp. This has to be doubled because you want a slotless item - hence the cost is 32,000gp. (There's no way I'm going to agree to pricing it using the formula for a Deflection bonus to AC, let alone any of the other bonuses, because Shield bonuses simply aren't worth as much as Deflection bonuses. They are in fact worth exactly the same as armour bonuses, so I price them the same.) This gives a total cost of 95,000gp for an AC of 30 (+3 Dex, +4 Monk's Belt, +3 Deflection, +4 Armour, +4 Shield, +2 Natural) touch 20, flat-footed 27. That's the figure you should be looking at for your fighter challenge budget.
Fireclave 07-07-07, 01:20 PM	Dex 14+2=16 mod +3 Wis 14+2=16 mod +3 Bracers of Armor 4 (Found of enemy) Robe of Deflection (Body) +3 (Found +2 enhanced to +3 10,000 gp) Natural Armor (Neck) +2 (Found +1, made +2 6000 gp) Non slot continual Shield (shield) +4 (8000) Monks Belt +3 (13000) Dex +2 (Hand) (4000 gp) Wis +2 (Face) (4000 gp) AC: 10, +4 Armor, +4 shield, +3 Dex, +2 Natural, +3 Deflection, +4 Doge= AC 30 Could I see a make up at about the same cost that a fighter can do with armor and shield even? If you are trying to compare the potential AC of an unarmored character to an armor character in general (and not just in your own game), your argument would be stronger if you stuck closer to the RAW avoided using houseruled items in your comparison to avoid cheesiness (a non-slotted continual Shield spell would easily cost alot more than 8000 gp, for example). Also, items found on enemies still count to your wealth by level, so you should count those costs as well. Using SRD only items (because I lack a fancy MiC), your propose build above would cost something more along the lines of this (using standard SRD items of the closest approximate) Base Dex 14 Base Wisdom 14 Bracers of Armor +4, 16000gp Ring of Protection +3, 18000gp Amulet of Natural Armor +2, 8000gp Ring of Force Shield, 8500gp Monk's Belt, 13000gp Gloves of Dexterity, 4000gp Incandescent Blue Ioun Stone, 8000gp AC = 28 (10 +4 Armor, +2 shield, +3 Dex, +2 Natural, +3 Deflection, +4 untyped) Total Cost = 77500gp, which would represent that majority of a 12th level character's total wealth. Now compare all of that gear to this standard, non-optimized array of tanky fighter gear. Base Dex 14 Base Wisdom 14 +2 Fullplate, 5650gp +1 Towershield, 1180gp Amulet of Natural Armor +1, 2000gp Ring of Protection +1, 2000gp AC = 29 (10 +10 armor, +5 shield, +2 dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection) Total Cost = 10830gp, which a standard character would be able to afford at 6th level. An armored character can achieve the same AC for a lot less, and therefore, a lot sooner. Now let's give that same tanky fighter enough gear to equal the cost of your build Base Dex 14 Base Wisdom 14 +2 Fullplate, 12650gp +3 Towershield, 16180gp Ring of Protection +2, 8000gp Amulet of Natural Armor +2, 8000 Minor Cloak of Displacement, 24000gp +1 Defending Longsword, 8315gp (because a fighter should have a weapon) AC = 36 (10 +10 armor, +7 shield, +2 dex, +2 natural, +2 deflection, +1 insight, +1 unnamed (when using Defending property)) and a 20% miss chance Total Cost = 77145gp, hardly optimized and still cheaper. Thing is, fighter tend to have higher ACs because 1) armor and shields add significant armor bonuses before they are even enchanted, and 2) armor and shields are much cheaper to enchant than other sources of AC.
Spikes01k 07-08-07, 08:46 AM	Ok I'll be back, but about the shield item. Continual Non slot Shield spell item Caster 1 x Level 1 spell x 2000 x 2 (duration) x 2 (non slot) = 8k
Erato 07-08-07, 09:17 AM	Ok I'll be back, but about the shield item. Continual Non slot Shield spell item Caster 1 x Level 1 spell x 2000 x 2 (duration) x 2 (non slot) = 8k It also says that those are guidelines, and that your first option should always be to look for an already existing item to compare with - in your case: Ring of Force Shield.
Merestil Haye 07-08-07, 10:45 AM	Ok I'll be back, but about the shield item. Continual Non slot Shield spell item Caster 1 x Level 1 spell x 2000 x 2 (duration) x 2 (non slot) = 8kBy this argument, a non-slotted item of Mage Armour costs 4,000gp. It provides a +4 armour bonus to AC. There is an item that does this. It is called Bracers of Armour +4 and it costs 16,000gp. Why does it cost 16k? Because the price is not set based on the level of spell needed to produce the effect, but on the power of the effect. Since armour and shield bonuses are exactly comparable, in that they both apply all the time but not at all against Touch or Incorporeal Touch attacks, and enhancement bonuses to the physical items cost exactly the same, the minimum cost you are looking at for a slotted item is the cost of Bracers of Armour that provide a bonus to AC of the same magnitude as your intended shield bonus. This is then doubled for your nonslotted item. (I don't like the Ring of Force Shield as a comparator because the price is, I'm fairly sure, increased by the ability to activate or deactivate as a free action.)
Waterhammer 07-08-07, 05:34 PM	I wouldn't mind seeing a reduction of Max Dex penalties for Most martial classes. As a class feature based on level. The fighter, and paladin would have a better progression than the barbarian, and ranger. The reason for this is the cleric, who can wear any armor, or shield (except tower), yet still is a full caster.