Armor as DR (not for KISS mentality) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Armor as DR (not for KISS mentality) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Chikngizrd
07-01-05, 01:51 PM I understand all the in and outs of the AC and hit points are abstractions arguments. I also understand that they are used to simplify combat. I have no problems with people who care for simplistic combat, thus my KISS (keep it simple stupid!) disclaimer. You can move along and enjoy your day.

For others however, a more realistic combat system is desired. Notice I didn't say realistic, just more so. I know one strategy to get that result is to consider armor as DR instead of AC. In this way, armor makes you harder to hurt, not harder to hit.

One of the better combat systems I've seen is the Conan system from Mongoose Publishing where armor is treated as DR and characters have the equivalent of an AC too. However, porting that over to D&D is not as simple as it would first appear. Of particular problem, is opponents that have natural armor as well as DR.

So, my question is: Has anybody ever tried to use armor as DR with D&D and if so, specifically how did you handle the problem surrounding opponents with both DR and natural armor?
tarkin
07-01-05, 02:01 PM Unearthed Arcana has some rules for doing that.

I personally think they need to be attack specificfied.

After all, if you are going for "realism", then you should be realistic and make it DR /Piercing, etc. not just DR/-

Flexible armor types (leather, hide, chain) work best against slashing armors, second best against blunt, and worst against piercing. (pierce right though anypart)

Flexible plus some plates (Breastplate, 1/2 plate) Armor types works best against blunt, second best against slashing and worst against piercing. (pierce right through the the flexible areas)

Total plates (Full Plate, Splint, Banded) works best against piercing, second best against slashing, worst against blunt. (no place to pierce or slash easy, blunt is the way to go).
Kintara
07-01-05, 02:09 PM Well, Unearthed Arcana has a middle-ground variant where armor gives both AC and DR. Natural Armor also gives a little DR. I know people have used this system.

Iron Heroes, a new variant Player's Handbook by Malhavok Press, will use armor as DR, and also grants a class-based defense bonus. It leaves natural armor alone, mostly for the sake of compatability and simplicity. I like what I've heard of the IH system. One of the innovations he came up with is using dice to represent your DR. So studded leather armor would grant 1d4 DR/-. I like that idea. It allows for some variability in the effect of DR, and it gives you another variable to work with as a part of the system.
Vahenir
07-01-05, 02:26 PM I love armour as DR rules, but they've never worked out, in my opinion, until the Conan RPG came along. Those are by far the best rules - ever. Why? Because they take weapons into account.

Armour in a game with DR should not exist in a vaccuum - the weapons need to have a reason to be there too. And with each weapon having its own Armour Piercing rating - the weapons are actually worth using against the armour types they're best against (by comparing AP with DR).

The problem with a system like Tarkin suggested - and a problem I only realized after using such a system, is that it's not realistic in the least, and creates some really ludicrous good weapon against certain armour styles kinds of issues.

For example, under such a system - a battle-axe is LESS useful against a gambeson (padded armour) as a rapier. Less useful.

Also, a rapier is just as good against plate armour as a military pick or estoc (they'd all be piercing weapons)!

And your unarmed strike is just as effective against plate armour as a warhammer (aside from differing damage dice).

If you're using such a system for realism's sake - you already failed, if you really think about it.

But Conan's system just blows me away with how simple it really is. How is a warhammer different from your fist when you're fighting a guy in plate? Simple - your unarmed attacks don't get an AP value - while the warhammer has a pretty big AP value.

I love it.

So, my question is: Has anybody ever tried to use armor as DR with D&D and if so, specifically how did you handle the problem surrounding opponents with both DR and natural armor?

It's tricky, and I've had to deal with this a lot (as I've experimented with a lot of armour as DR variants). The one I liked the most was that the creature benefits from their armour's DR (+ 1/2 natural DR, rounded down -1).

The theory is that a creature with a tough, but not exceptionally tough hide (like DR 2) isn't gaining anything, the armour has already slowed down the weapon a bit - but if the blow was powerful enough to get through the armour, it's going to go through the hide as well.

Alternatively, a very tough-skinned creature (like DR 10) only misses some of his DR - as the blow may be powerful enough to penetrate the armour and -into- the hide, but it may not be powerful enough to get all the way -through- the hide.
Chikngizrd
07-01-05, 03:05 PM The one I liked the most was that the creature benefits from their armour's DR (+ 1/2 natural DR, rounded down -1).

ok, mixing some terms here. Are you saying you convert all the creature's natural armor to DR and then add 1/2 their DR value? For instance: a balor has 19 natural armor and 15 DR. Would this be a (15 + 19/2-1 = 23) or 19 + 15/2-1 = 25)? I know these 2 are really close but other examples would show a wider difference depending on which value you're giving 1/2 value to.

Alternatively, a very tough-skinned creature (like DR 10)

See, this begs the question: What exactly IS DR. Natural Armor reflects tough skin or hide. What does DR represent? Also skin/hide but only effective against attacks not using the indicated material/+weapon? Logically, if it is also hide, then its a qualified extension of natural armor and therefore would stack with natural armor. Meaning our friendly neighborhood balor from above should have a DR of 19 against Cold Iron weapons but a DR of 34 against most other weapons.

Now would be a good time to mention that my group still uses 3.0 DR not the 3.5 version. So ours goes by weapon enhancement. I'm not real familiar with the 3.5 DR values. Are they generally lower than in 3.0?
Vahenir
07-01-05, 03:23 PM ok, mixing some terms here. Are you saying you convert all the creature's natural armor to DR and then add 1/2 their DR value? For instance: a balor has 19 natural armor and 15 DR. Would this be a (15 + 19/2-1 = 23) or 19 + 15/2-1 = 25)? I know these 2 are really close but other examples would show a wider difference depending on which value you're giving 1/2 value to.

Oh, sorry! Haha.

Yes, I convert natural armour to 'natural DR.' So a natural armour bonus of +19 becomes DR 19. Half of that, rounded down - is of course 8. 8-1 is 7. So the Balor in question would have a DR value of 7 + Armour value.

It's also important to note that in a system where armour acts as DR, you need to develop a new kind of Defense that scales, since armour and naturally thick skin do nothing to actually keep a weapon from getting close to you, as they do by the RAW.

So in this case, let's say you're using scaling Defense bonus, kind of like scaling Attack bonus. With the Balor, who has no class levels, you'd just assign him a Defense bonus as you would an attack bonus. So let's say - 10. So he has +10 to his Defense (plus all the other standard modifiers), and then has the DR mentioned previously.

It's certainly more work - but not much more.

See, this begs the question: What exactly IS DR. Natural Armor reflects tough skin or hide. What does DR represent?

In an abstract system, this kind of question is difficult and has a lot of interpretations. I'll give you mine, if you're interested:

Hit Points ~ Hit points represent your ability to avoid blows, your stupid luck, and your ability to take really light wounds. When the Hit Points disappear - you've taken something serious.

Natural Armour ~ Represents the toughness of your hide - your body's natural ability to absorb/deflect/ and disperse the impact of a weapon or other attack, and thus avoid damage to the softer tissue beneath.

Damage Reduction ~ Represents something very similar - the ability to absorb damage that would have been conferred to you had the DR not been there.

AC ~ AC represents both the ability to absorb damage, and the ability to deflect attacks away from you - so a 'miss' doesn't always necessarily miss you - it just didn't connect well enough to do damage, or force you to expend energy avoiding it (HP).

Thus, natural armour and AC represent almost the same thing. And since AC is going out the window -natural armour should follow it out. Both of which get replaced by Damage Reduction.

So in a variant system DR comes to represent solely the ability to withstand injury (either from armour or thick skin) and a new value represents the ability to avoid being hit entirely.

To look at it from a gameplay perspective: Two Fighters, one in mail with a longsword and shield, and the other wearing plate and wielding a greatsword, square off:

RAW: Fighter 1 (mail) rolls a 2 - missing Fighter 2 (plate). This could be described as the blow glancing off the armour, or missing the foe entirely. Fighter 1 attacks again, this time hitting Fighter 2 for 6 points of damage. Fighter 2 now has 25 Hit Points left - he's fine. So the blow is described as glancing off his armour (once again) - but Fighter 2 had to expend energy and maybe a little luck, and definitely some skill and stamina, in keeping the blow from being more serious.

Now let's look at how this is handled in an armour as DR system:

Fighter 1 rolls a 2 and misses Fighter 2's Defense score. This can only really be described one way - he didn't manage to get his weapon close enough to force the Fighter to a last second reaction, which would cost HP. Fighter 1 swings again and hits Fighter 2's Defense score this time. He scores 10 points of damage, but the armour of Fighter 2 absorbs 8 points of damage - meaning Fighter 2 only loses two points of HP. The blow struck the armour and glanced away, forcing Fighter 2 to react quickly, but not actually dealing him any bodily harm.

As you can see, the two systems are described very differently, but much the same. The big difference is now there's a value to determine if the blow actually struck you (Defense), while DR represents the blow's ability to do anything when it gets there.
In the RAW system - AC represents both things.

On the subject of specific weaknesses (like DR/silver) - then the full DR would apply against attacks not with that material - since the DR is supernatural in origin.

Now would be a good time to mention that my group still uses 3.0 DR not the 3.5 version. So ours goes by weapon enhancement. I'm not real familiar with the 3.5 DR values. Are they generally lower than in 3.0?

I couldn't tell you. I've been playing with houserules since 3.0 - and I only nabbed a few things here and there from 3.5 - DR wasn't one of them.
Lord Schpungus
07-01-05, 03:47 PM ugh... 3.0 DR... The system that kept you in the kiddie pool until everyone could afford the +5 weapon. With 3.5 at least you have a shot at hurting the big DR monster before it kills you.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Chikngizrd 07-01-05, 01:51 PM	I understand all the in and outs of the AC and hit points are abstractions arguments. I also understand that they are used to simplify combat. I have no problems with people who care for simplistic combat, thus my KISS (keep it simple stupid!) disclaimer. You can move along and enjoy your day. For others however, a more realistic combat system is desired. Notice I didn't say realistic, just more so. I know one strategy to get that result is to consider armor as DR instead of AC. In this way, armor makes you harder to hurt, not harder to hit. One of the better combat systems I've seen is the Conan system from Mongoose Publishing where armor is treated as DR and characters have the equivalent of an AC too. However, porting that over to D&D is not as simple as it would first appear. Of particular problem, is opponents that have natural armor as well as DR. So, my question is: Has anybody ever tried to use armor as DR with D&D and if so, specifically how did you handle the problem surrounding opponents with both DR and natural armor?
tarkin 07-01-05, 02:01 PM	Unearthed Arcana has some rules for doing that. I personally think they need to be attack specificfied. After all, if you are going for "realism", then you should be realistic and make it DR /Piercing, etc. not just DR/- Flexible armor types (leather, hide, chain) work best against slashing armors, second best against blunt, and worst against piercing. (pierce right though anypart) Flexible plus some plates (Breastplate, 1/2 plate) Armor types works best against blunt, second best against slashing and worst against piercing. (pierce right through the the flexible areas) Total plates (Full Plate, Splint, Banded) works best against piercing, second best against slashing, worst against blunt. (no place to pierce or slash easy, blunt is the way to go).
Kintara 07-01-05, 02:09 PM	Well, Unearthed Arcana has a middle-ground variant where armor gives both AC and DR. Natural Armor also gives a little DR. I know people have used this system. Iron Heroes, a new variant Player's Handbook by Malhavok Press, will use armor as DR, and also grants a class-based defense bonus. It leaves natural armor alone, mostly for the sake of compatability and simplicity. I like what I've heard of the IH system. One of the innovations he came up with is using dice to represent your DR. So studded leather armor would grant 1d4 DR/-. I like that idea. It allows for some variability in the effect of DR, and it gives you another variable to work with as a part of the system.
Vahenir 07-01-05, 02:26 PM	I love armour as DR rules, but they've never worked out, in my opinion, until the Conan RPG came along. Those are by far the best rules - ever. Why? Because they take weapons into account. Armour in a game with DR should not exist in a vaccuum - the weapons need to have a reason to be there too. And with each weapon having its own Armour Piercing rating - the weapons are actually worth using against the armour types they're best against (by comparing AP with DR). The problem with a system like Tarkin suggested - and a problem I only realized after using such a system, is that it's not realistic in the least, and creates some really ludicrous good weapon against certain armour styles kinds of issues. For example, under such a system - a battle-axe is LESS useful against a gambeson (padded armour) as a rapier. Less useful. Also, a rapier is just as good against plate armour as a military pick or estoc (they'd all be piercing weapons)! And your unarmed strike is just as effective against plate armour as a warhammer (aside from differing damage dice). If you're using such a system for realism's sake - you already failed, if you really think about it. But Conan's system just blows me away with how simple it really is. How is a warhammer different from your fist when you're fighting a guy in plate? Simple - your unarmed attacks don't get an AP value - while the warhammer has a pretty big AP value. I love it. So, my question is: Has anybody ever tried to use armor as DR with D&D and if so, specifically how did you handle the problem surrounding opponents with both DR and natural armor? It's tricky, and I've had to deal with this a lot (as I've experimented with a lot of armour as DR variants). The one I liked the most was that the creature benefits from their armour's DR (+ 1/2 natural DR, rounded down -1). The theory is that a creature with a tough, but not exceptionally tough hide (like DR 2) isn't gaining anything, the armour has already slowed down the weapon a bit - but if the blow was powerful enough to get through the armour, it's going to go through the hide as well. Alternatively, a very tough-skinned creature (like DR 10) only misses some of his DR - as the blow may be powerful enough to penetrate the armour and -into- the hide, but it may not be powerful enough to get all the way -through- the hide.
Chikngizrd 07-01-05, 03:05 PM	The one I liked the most was that the creature benefits from their armour's DR (+ 1/2 natural DR, rounded down -1). ok, mixing some terms here. Are you saying you convert all the creature's natural armor to DR and then add 1/2 their DR value? For instance: a balor has 19 natural armor and 15 DR. Would this be a (15 + 19/2-1 = 23) or 19 + 15/2-1 = 25)? I know these 2 are really close but other examples would show a wider difference depending on which value you're giving 1/2 value to. Alternatively, a very tough-skinned creature (like DR 10) See, this begs the question: What exactly IS DR. Natural Armor reflects tough skin or hide. What does DR represent? Also skin/hide but only effective against attacks not using the indicated material/+weapon? Logically, if it is also hide, then its a qualified extension of natural armor and therefore would stack with natural armor. Meaning our friendly neighborhood balor from above should have a DR of 19 against Cold Iron weapons but a DR of 34 against most other weapons. Now would be a good time to mention that my group still uses 3.0 DR not the 3.5 version. So ours goes by weapon enhancement. I'm not real familiar with the 3.5 DR values. Are they generally lower than in 3.0?
Vahenir 07-01-05, 03:23 PM	ok, mixing some terms here. Are you saying you convert all the creature's natural armor to DR and then add 1/2 their DR value? For instance: a balor has 19 natural armor and 15 DR. Would this be a (15 + 19/2-1 = 23) or 19 + 15/2-1 = 25)? I know these 2 are really close but other examples would show a wider difference depending on which value you're giving 1/2 value to. Oh, sorry! Haha. Yes, I convert natural armour to 'natural DR.' So a natural armour bonus of +19 becomes DR 19. Half of that, rounded down - is of course 8. 8-1 is 7. So the Balor in question would have a DR value of 7 + Armour value. It's also important to note that in a system where armour acts as DR, you need to develop a new kind of Defense that scales, since armour and naturally thick skin do nothing to actually keep a weapon from getting close to you, as they do by the RAW. So in this case, let's say you're using scaling Defense bonus, kind of like scaling Attack bonus. With the Balor, who has no class levels, you'd just assign him a Defense bonus as you would an attack bonus. So let's say - 10. So he has +10 to his Defense (plus all the other standard modifiers), and then has the DR mentioned previously. It's certainly more work - but not much more. See, this begs the question: What exactly IS DR. Natural Armor reflects tough skin or hide. What does DR represent? In an abstract system, this kind of question is difficult and has a lot of interpretations. I'll give you mine, if you're interested: Hit Points ~ Hit points represent your ability to avoid blows, your stupid luck, and your ability to take really light wounds. When the Hit Points disappear - you've taken something serious. Natural Armour ~ Represents the toughness of your hide - your body's natural ability to absorb/deflect/ and disperse the impact of a weapon or other attack, and thus avoid damage to the softer tissue beneath. Damage Reduction ~ Represents something very similar - the ability to absorb damage that would have been conferred to you had the DR not been there. AC ~ AC represents both the ability to absorb damage, and the ability to deflect attacks away from you - so a 'miss' doesn't always necessarily miss you - it just didn't connect well enough to do damage, or force you to expend energy avoiding it (HP). Thus, natural armour and AC represent almost the same thing. And since AC is going out the window -natural armour should follow it out. Both of which get replaced by Damage Reduction. So in a variant system DR comes to represent solely the ability to withstand injury (either from armour or thick skin) and a new value represents the ability to avoid being hit entirely. To look at it from a gameplay perspective: Two Fighters, one in mail with a longsword and shield, and the other wearing plate and wielding a greatsword, square off: RAW: Fighter 1 (mail) rolls a 2 - missing Fighter 2 (plate). This could be described as the blow glancing off the armour, or missing the foe entirely. Fighter 1 attacks again, this time hitting Fighter 2 for 6 points of damage. Fighter 2 now has 25 Hit Points left - he's fine. So the blow is described as glancing off his armour (once again) - but Fighter 2 had to expend energy and maybe a little luck, and definitely some skill and stamina, in keeping the blow from being more serious. Now let's look at how this is handled in an armour as DR system: Fighter 1 rolls a 2 and misses Fighter 2's Defense score. This can only really be described one way - he didn't manage to get his weapon close enough to force the Fighter to a last second reaction, which would cost HP. Fighter 1 swings again and hits Fighter 2's Defense score this time. He scores 10 points of damage, but the armour of Fighter 2 absorbs 8 points of damage - meaning Fighter 2 only loses two points of HP. The blow struck the armour and glanced away, forcing Fighter 2 to react quickly, but not actually dealing him any bodily harm. As you can see, the two systems are described very differently, but much the same. The big difference is now there's a value to determine if the blow actually struck you (Defense), while DR represents the blow's ability to do anything when it gets there. In the RAW system - AC represents both things. On the subject of specific weaknesses (like DR/silver) - then the full DR would apply against attacks not with that material - since the DR is supernatural in origin. Now would be a good time to mention that my group still uses 3.0 DR not the 3.5 version. So ours goes by weapon enhancement. I'm not real familiar with the 3.5 DR values. Are they generally lower than in 3.0? I couldn't tell you. I've been playing with houserules since 3.0 - and I only nabbed a few things here and there from 3.5 - DR wasn't one of them.
Lord Schpungus 07-01-05, 03:47 PM	ugh... 3.0 DR... The system that kept you in the kiddie pool until everyone could afford the +5 weapon. With 3.5 at least you have a shot at hurting the big DR monster before it kills you.