Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Earthcrosser599 07-04-05, 05:41 AM	Our main group has been level 12 for a while, and I don't remember a case in which an attack on the fighter missed him. He's wearing some sort of full plate and has a few magic items that pump his AC, and I think he has like 23 AC or something like that. Thing is, whenever something swings at him, it hits. He's never avoided an attack within the last 3 levels and I'm starting to wonder if at his level should he even be wearing armor at all. He's giving up 10 feet of landspeed that could've really helped a few times and he'd be giving up something that hasn't seemed to do anything for him. I don't know if he's just unlucky or if everything at this level has high enough attack bonuses that his AC is the difference from missing on a 1 and missing on a 3. What's an average 12th level figher AC for someone who's not focusing heavily on it?
Eaglos 07-04-05, 07:22 AM	My 6th level Summoner had an AC of 19-20. I had something like 10+Dex+leather+item, so: 1. Your fellow fighter could be doing something wrong :rolleyes: regarding feats+skills 2. Your DM is throwing powerfull monsters at you in which case there is nothing your fighter could do to avoid the beating. Is he/she also having a hard time hitting the monsters? If so, then it's definetaly (spelling) the DMs fault.
Nom 07-04-05, 08:07 AM	At that level, you're going to have difficulty avoiding "first attacks" (full BAB). The big benefit of AC is that it helps against incremental and additional attacks, thus reducing the total damage you take each round. That said, 23 AC seems low-ish, to me. You'd expect a character of that level to have around 88k gp in total wealth. That's probably around 70k gp in permanent equipment and magic. Baseline: 10 + Full plate (1.5k) +8 + Dex +1 = 19 Add: +4 armour (9k) = +23 Add: +2 ring of protection (8k) = +25 So spending only a quarter of your available wealth you should have at least +25 AC. Either the armour or ring could be made more powerful, or you could add an amulet of natural armour (+2 is 8k). I'm assuming that he's wielding a two-handed weapon, else you can add another +4 to +6 for a magical heavy shield. That said, the primary attack of a CR 12 opponent could easily be above +20, so +25 AC won't necessarily allow you to avoid that. It will be more effective against secondary attacks, however.
the artful dodger 07-04-05, 08:34 AM	The 12th level Fighter NPC writeup in the DMG already has an AC of 25. Granted, he's using a shield which may not be the case for the character in question, but this should be an indication that an AC of 23 at level 12 is mediocre at best for a fighter PC. That same NPC has melee attacks at +18/+13/+8 to hit, which means hitting 80%, 55% and 30% of the time respectively against an AC 23 char. At a glance, most CR 12 monsters seem to have attack bonuses equal to that or higher (and something like a cryohydra with a slightly lower attack bonus makes up for it by having so many attacks). My conclusion: it's prefectly normal that the pc gets hit a lot considering his AC. Getting hit all the time however would indicate freakishly bad luck (or a sadistic DM who fudges his rolls, but let's assume that's not the case ;) ). If it's a problem, I would suggest taking Combat Expertise and investing a bit more in magical items. It shouldn't be too hard to increase that AC to somewhere in the high 20s or low 30s when using CE.
Yoho1.5 07-04-05, 12:24 PM	The "Tips and Tactics" articles on the WoTC D&D page have a two part article on upping your AC!! It is very handy especially on the gear to buy how to stack AC mods part. I disagree with Nom's +2 ring/+4 armour recommendation. It is cheaper to have several stacking lower bonus items rather than one or two high plus items. Nom spent 18500gp for 25 AC for that you could buy the following: ring of protection +1 (deflection bonus) 2000gp amulet of natural armour +1 (natural armour bonus) 2000gp +2 Platemail +10 to AC (armour bonus) 5650gp +2 Buckler +3 to AC (shield bonus) 4165gp +2 gloves of Dex +1 AC (dex bonus) 4000gp 2 potions of Blur 20% miss chance 600gp total AC 26 with 20% misschance for a couple of encounters plus you have 85gp left over to blow at the tavern. The lower armour bonuses also leaves room for allies to buff you with Shield of Faith and Barkskin.
Bak 07-04-05, 12:33 PM	23 AC at lv 12 is definitely too low. I am an lv 8 elven druid and has 18 AC constant, 26 (or 30 in melee) AC with a single spell – Greater Luminous Armor. (from Book of Exalted Deeds) My AC = 10 + 4 dex (with MI) +3 shield (MI, of course) +1 def (RoP) Greater Luminous Armor grants me +8 armor AC, and opponent takes -4 penalty when strike me in melee. That is equivalent 30 AC. I have feat Sudden Extend applying to Greater Luminous Armor and Ring of Counterspell (Dispel Magic). That is enough and safe for a short adventure. I can even boost my AC with my favour Barkskin and Cat’s Grace (additional +2 only because of wearing Gloves of Dexterity). But they are not constant so I don’t count them. Bak
Gagnrath 07-04-05, 02:40 PM	I have an issue with armour at mid and mid high lvl's.... Fighters and barbarians really quit having their armour go up much after about 8th lvl unless they concentrate on it heavily..... sure it may go up one or two if they spend 20,000 gp on magic items or spend a feat. But it really doesn't help much. Most of the mosters are going to hit with their primary attacks unless your ac is in the mid to high 30's especially if they are physical attack type monsters.
the artful dodger 07-04-05, 02:49 PM	Most of the mosters are going to hit with their primary attacks unless your ac is in the 30's especially if they are physical attack type monsters. Monsters (and certainly high-level NPCs) have secondary or iterative attacks too. Not being hit by those is a nice benefit already, even if you do get hit by the primary attack. An AC in the 30s isn't really that hard to get by level 8+ either, as long as you're willing to accept the attack penalties from Combat Expertise at least.
Gagnrath 07-04-05, 03:16 PM	platemail +8 +1 dex =19 figure a sheild +2 and +5 in magic bonus's between the two at about lvl 8-15 (this is average between the lvl's) add in an amulet of nat armour +4 or so and you still only have a 29 Thats about max for someone under 15th lvl unless you are focusing in being very hard to hit and sacrificing quite a bit of offense to accomplish it. Sure it might be doable to sacrifice some base attack against some monsters but some you really can't. Also this is assuring your secondary attacks miss as well. Simple matter of fact is ac really does top out before Bab does especially since more things stack on attack side than on defense side oh well it's not a big deal..... since thats what hit points are for.
Earthcrosser599 07-04-05, 03:45 PM	Okay, let's see. -I trust our DM and I don't think he's fudging die rolls. The things we fight seem reasonable. No, neither the fighter nor the bard have trouble hitting the monsters. -The fighter doesn't focus on his ac and spends most of his money on upping his attacking ability. We're not trying to bump his AC because so far he's managed to survive despite being hit by everything. The question is should he even continue to wear his armor? -He's using some souped up falchion and no shield. -He's playing a fighter, not a druid. He doesn't have defensive spells going for him, he can't use Elephant Hide or whatever, and we don't use BoED because of power issues.
Armoracia Rusticana 07-04-05, 03:51 PM	Wearing no armor means taking 3 hits of any enemy in a single round... Ouch that is painful!
Earthcrosser599 07-04-05, 03:53 PM	He's already taking 3 hits every round. At least.
the artful dodger 07-04-05, 05:16 PM	The question is should he even continue to wear his armor? Getting hit all the time is statistically near-impossible. Even without armour whatsoever, every 20th attack or so should be an auto-miss (natural 1). So IMO, yes, he should continue to wear his armour: this situation of being hit every time shouldn't exist. I can acknowledge a period of extremely bad luck, but something like this is ridiculous. Either something is being done wrong, or it'll change.
Timlagor 07-04-05, 05:25 PM	If you've got a cleric he shoudl be useing Magic Vestment If you've got a Wizard -polymorph Mithral Full plate allos +3 Dex (gloves) Presumably he has a ring of Deflection -there are also spells A Heavy Steel Animated Shield would help an awful lot! (at least +3 for about 7k I think)
primemover003 07-04-05, 05:37 PM	If he's got at least a 13 Int or Dex you could slap on Combat Expertise or Dodge respectively. Get yourself some kind of Non AC protection too, like Potions of Blur or Displacement. Drop some cash for either Mithril full plate if you've got a good dex OR Adamantine Plate to get a nice bit of DR! As a side note, 12th level isn't mid... it's high! You're gonna start to see some fairly nasty critters. I suggest you boost your Con score as much as possible. For the most part a tank is gonna get hit on at least the first attack and hit by all the Reflex save spells... Buckets of hitpoints are your best defense.
Earthcrosser599 07-04-05, 05:53 PM	Getting hit all the time is statistically near-impossible. Even without armour whatsoever, every 20th attack or so should be an auto-miss (natural 1). So IMO, yes, he should continue to wear his armour: this situation of being hit every time shouldn't exist. I can acknowledge a period of extremely bad luck, but something like this is ridiculous. Either something is being done wrong, or it'll change. Thanks, you're the only one who's actually answered my question.
Earthcrosser599 07-04-05, 05:54 PM	If you've got a cleric he shoudl be useing Magic Vestment If you've got a Wizard -polymorph Mithral Full plate allos +3 Dex (gloves) Presumably he has a ring of Deflection -there are also spells A Heavy Steel Animated Shield would help an awful lot! (at least +3 for about 7k I think) That would be fine and dandy if we were working on upping his AC. We're not.
Nom 07-04-05, 06:03 PM	I disagree with Nom's +2 ring/+4 armour recommendation. It is cheaper to have several stacking lower bonus items rather than one or two high plus items. Nom spent 18500gp for 25 AC for that you could buy the following: ring of protection +1 (deflection bonus) 2000gp amulet of natural armour +1 (natural armour bonus) 2000gp +2 Platemail +10 to AC (armour bonus) 5650gp +2 Buckler +3 to AC (shield bonus) 4165gp +2 gloves of Dex +1 AC (dex bonus) 4000gp 2 potions of Blur 20% miss chance 600gp(1) It's a "back of the envelope" calculation, not a recommendation. (2) Your numbers make a bunch of assumptions anyway. Firstly, I (correctly) assumed he didn't use a shield. Secondly, the gloves are likely redundant (for AC), in that he probably has +1 (or better) Dex naturally. And I already included the amulet in the discussion. (3) The advantage of letting your allies buff you is that it is cheaper. The disadvantage is that it is temporary and takes time. I'm not convinced that spending money on weak items really fits either strategy well, although it does provide a useful fallback position. That said, the rules somewhat encourage this, in that there is no financial penalty to upgrade an existing item. (4) blur (or any other form of concealment) is an excellent idea.
allenchan 07-04-05, 06:44 PM	The thing is you can't ignore armor and focus just on your weapon. You dont have to "focus heavily" on AC, just try to diversify where your gold is going. AC items are cheap. (ever notice how cheap armor is compared to weapons? If you're spending all your money on a +10 weapon, you're asking for it) Have you using the same characters for multiple levels? You might be underequipped. Try adding up all the fighter's magic items and see if its comparable to the dmg recommended wealth entry. And, as others have said, Fighters are -supposed- to get hit. Hence the d10 hit die. AC at that level is just supposed to stop ititeritive(sp?) attacks
primemover003 07-04-05, 07:02 PM	That would be fine and dandy if we were working on upping his AC. We're not. Then you definitely NEED to up his Con score... if he's content with a 23 AC and resigned to be hit every time (somehow) then he needs more hit points as this is the only other viable survival strategy I can forsee.
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer 07-04-05, 07:15 PM	Our main group has been level 12 for a while, and I don't remember a case in which an attack on the fighter missed him. He's wearing some sort of full plate and has a few magic items that pump his AC, and I think he has like 23 AC or something like that. Full-Plate +2 is +10 AC, Ring of Protection +1, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Dex bonus +1 for a total of 23 (I am assuming). An animated Lg Steel Shield costs 9170 (I think) and gives a +3 AC bonus. An Ioun Stone exists to add +1 to AC for 5k. Raising +2 to +3 costs 5k. Overall, your AC is low for your level. Thing is, whenever something swings at him, it hits. He's never avoided an attack within the last 3 levels and I'm starting to wonder if at his level should he even be wearing armor at all. He's giving up 10 feet of landspeed that could've really helped a few times and he'd be giving up something that hasn't seemed to do anything for him. I don't know if he's just unlucky or if everything at this level has high enough attack bonuses that his AC is the difference from missing on a 1 and missing on a 3. What's an average 12th level figher AC for someone who's not focusing heavily on it? It is always best to have the highest AC as possible due to criticals.
StevenO 07-04-05, 08:06 PM	As previously stated the NPC fighter in the DMG is AC 25 with shield so a PC should be that high or a little better. It is also true that if he's getting hit all the time some random events are happpening and should swing the other way so DON'T give up the armor. Besides making secondary and triciary attacks less likely to hit consider that dropping Full Plate for a Chain Shirt may speed you up but an opponent could use Power Attack to cover the difference and increase the damage with each hit done. With a Two-handed weapon that difference would be 8 points of damage each hit! So keep the armor and try to diversify AC bonuses to increase the total AC, you'll live longer.
Elgonn 07-04-05, 08:11 PM	The OP's fighter just has woefully bad AC. The character is built horribly. Nothing is wrong with the game's mechanics. It is always best to have the highest AC as possible due to criticals. Fortification and other methods of being immune to criticals are easier and more effective than a high AC ever would be.
Yoho1.5 07-04-05, 09:40 PM	(1) It's a "back of the envelope" calculation, not a recommendation. I have no problems with that (2) Your numbers make a bunch of assumptions anyway. Firstly, I (correctly) assumed he didn't use a shield. Secondly, the gloves are likely redundant (for AC), in that he probably has +1 (or better) Dex naturally. And I already included the amulet in the discussion. The answer was pretty generic as no character details where given, I was just showing what was possible with spreading your gp around instead of focusing on one item. As for the buckler isn't there a feat that would let him use a THW with it? As for the dex gloves he didn't give a dex score so your assuming he doesn't need it as much as I assumed it would help. (3) The advantage of letting your allies buff you is that it is cheaper. The disadvantage is that it is temporary and takes time. I'm not convinced that spending money on weak items really fits either strategy well, although it does provide a useful fallback position. That said, the rules somewhat encourage this, in that there is no financial penalty to upgrade an existing item. My intent was to show a way to save GP on AC +1 amulet of Natural Armour and +1 Ring of Protection is 4000 gp cheaper than a +2 RoP. (4) blur (or any other form of concealment) is an excellent idea. We couldn't be more in agreement, miss chance is better than AC. My suggestions to address the orginal posters the AC problem were a bit on the quick, so I didn't go into feats that help AC, or the benifits of Mithral (higher max dex bonus) or Adamantite (DR), or other concealment items. The orignal poster complained that he was taking too many hits; well 12th level is pretty rough level. His DM may have a style that favours the one big monster over mass combat which makes AC less capable of stopping attacks; and attaining DR and Miss Chance become more important. Nom I do agree with you on your statement that the posters AC is light for his level, and he would be better off upping it, I also beleive that AC maxing shows a poor return if it is at the expense of offense.
Earthcrosser599 07-04-05, 10:23 PM	Then you definitely NEED to up his Con score... if he's content with a 23 AC and resigned to be hit every time (somehow) then he needs more hit points as this is the only other viable survival strategy I can forsee. He's not having trouble surviving with his existing con score. He's had hardly any close calls within the last 3 levels. His combat lifespan is not an issue.
Earthcrosser599 07-04-05, 10:32 PM	The thing is you can't ignore armor and focus just on your weapon. You dont have to "focus heavily" on AC, just try to diversify where your gold is going. AC items are cheap. (ever notice how cheap armor is compared to weapons? If you're spending all your money on a +10 weapon, you're asking for it) Have you using the same characters for multiple levels? You might be underequipped. Try adding up all the fighter's magic items and see if its comparable to the dmg recommended wealth entry. And, as others have said, Fighters are -supposed- to get hit. Hence the d10 hit die. AC at that level is just supposed to stop ititeritive(sp?) attacks Well, he can't go back with his stuff and rebuy things, he's gotta stick with what he's got for now. Last time he said he had wished he'd gotten a better sword because his armor isn't doing anything. Yeah, we've had these guys since level 4. I'm not sure of his exact equipment, I'll check out his character sheet later today.
Earthcrosser599 07-04-05, 10:40 PM	The orignal poster complained that he was taking too many hits; well 12th level is pretty rough level. His DM may have a style that favours the one big monster over mass combat which makes AC less capable of stopping attacks; and attaining DR and Miss Chance become more important. The last thing we fought was a pair of Arrow Devils (?) and an ogre with I think ranger levels.
the artful dodger 07-05-05, 04:46 AM	He's not having trouble surviving with his existing con score. He's had hardly any close calls within the last 3 levels. This is really beyond me. He's unlucky enough to get hit every single time someone attacks him, taking three hits or more most rounds, and still has hardly any close calls over the course of three levels? Does your DM's d20 roll nothing but 20s and all his other dice nothing but 1s or something? This is utterly inconceivable. With a Con of let's say 26, he has a maximum of 216 hp (I assume he didn't invest in Toughness or anything like that), but is more likely to have around 160-170. At an average of 15 points of damage per hit (at level 12, that should probably be more) and 3 hits per round, he should be hitting the canvas in 4 rounds. Does he have another pc running after him doing nothing but healing or something?
Timlagor 07-05-05, 05:40 AM	That's assuming only one enemy attacking him of course and 15 damage is very very low indeed. Perhaps you really need to buy your DM a copy of Monster Manual 3! :D Find a nice troll with pounce rake and rend :weep:
Thelon Fairblade 07-05-05, 08:36 AM	Your basic question has been answered: His AC is a bit low. He should retain his armor, though, if only to avoid the occasional secondary or tertiary attack. If the landspeed is really an issue, consider downgrading the armor to a chainshirt. That's only 1 AC loss from a breastplate, after all. A non-AC survivability increase, as casually mentioned by someone else, is to get his armor converted/replaced by Adamantine. Even an Adamantine breastplate will stop 2 damage from every hit, which means saving 6 per monster per round (assuming 'always hit', as you stated). Other than that, you can go for the "concealment" route. Blur, as mentioned, is an inexpensive route. There is also the Cloak Dance feat from XPH which grants 20% miss chance when fighting defensively.
Yoho1.5 07-05-05, 11:21 AM	The last thing we fought was a pair of Arrow Devils (?) and an ogre with I think ranger levels. Your AC is below average, if you consider the NPCs in the DMG average, and an average AC usual is enough to fend off the below your level CRs. At equal CRs your probably going to take some hits. The purpose of AC at this level is to fend off secondary attacks and hoards. 1) Does your DM roll combat rolls out in the open? 2) Does your DM present a variety of monsters? 3) What are the stats of your always hit character, maybe we could help with specific answers; like next feat selection, combat advice, magic items to aqquire and so on.
Earthcrosser599 07-06-05, 02:27 AM	-The cleric, spirit shaman, and half the time the bard do nothing except heal during a fight and 9 out of 10 times the fighter is the one they're working on. Occasionally if we have a spare round they'll pump the party but that's usually only if the enemy isn't quite in our faces yet. -No, our DM doesn't roll in public but I've been playing with him for over a year and I've never seen anything to make me think he's fudging. Even this. His variety of monsters is sorta bland at lower levels but it gets better towards mid levels. As of late we haven't gotten into too many non-story encounters that have the same monsters over and over. -The fighter has something like 20 strength and 22 con. He's wearing +2 full plate, I think a ring of protection +2, an amulet of natural armor +1, and has a +1 dex mod, and something else that's adding to his AC, I think it's an Ioun Stone, and he's using some magical cold-ability falchion. His treasure might be higher than his level expectations because we all pooled together and bought him alot of stuff earlier for an arena duel that he had to win. I'm not sure of all his feats, he uses Power Attack and Shock Trooper alot, and his 9th and 12th level feats were both Roll With It.
Bak 07-06-05, 04:14 AM	Earthcrosser599, I know your ally is a Fighter, not a druid. But I just show my character as an example. You said your campaign doesn’t allow BoED, so my character AC will drop back to around 24 (depending on my armor). Your party have a cleric, so he could cast Shield of Faith. Your Spirit Shaman probably knows Barkskin. Both spell can boost your Fighter’s AC, though it is a little bit troublesome and time-consuming. Bak
aelryinth 07-06-05, 04:46 AM	There's a very easy way to get him to up his AC. Stop healing him in combat and fight stuff instead. Once he gets slammed down to negatives or dies once or twice, he will take steps himself to correct the problem. If you start getting involved in combat and doing stuff, taking him off center stage, he'll change his tactics. Right now, your play style is making him the 'superman' and focus of everything in combat. Take the focus of combat off of him, spread it around, and have him get crushed...have everyone get crushed...and suddenly they can't all spare the healing for him. There's a hundred ways to take out a fighter in a fight. You are relying too much on him...and he's playing you. Open up the table and do what you want to do...not what he's making you do. I personally think a death or three because of his crappy AC will solve all your problems for you. Or healing someone else but him...and making him go into fights with half hit points because someone else needed the healing more. ==Aelryinth
the artful dodger 07-06-05, 05:49 AM	-The cleric, spirit shaman, and half the time the bard do nothing except heal during a fight and 9 out of 10 times the fighter is the one they're working on. 2.5 out of how many characters are doing nothing but healing? That's neither fun nor efficient. The sooner you take out whatever or whoever is attacking your party, the less healing you have to do. Become proactive instead of reactive. Not only will you have more fun doing so, the fighter will get hit less often too simply because the combat encounters won't take as long.
Timlagor 07-06-05, 08:13 AM	-The cleric, spirit shaman, and half the time the bard do nothing except heal during a fight and 9 out of 10 times the fighter is the one they're working on. Occasionally if we have a spare round they'll pump the party but that's usually only if the enemy isn't quite in our faces yet. I thougth you said he wasn't havign trouble surviving. He's a terrible drain on the party if this is the case. You said my suggestions would be useful if you were trying to boost his AC. YOU SHOULD BE. You have both a Spirit Shaman and a Cleric -there should be buffs in the first round. The BArd certainly has better things to do than healing.
Yoho1.5 07-06-05, 12:27 PM	Your fighters getting hit all the time because hes a damage magnet because he is the sole offense in your party. His AC is as bad as I first thought +2 plate, +2 RoP, +1 AoNA, +1 Dex, Ioun Stone dusty rose +1=25. How long do your combats last? must be along time if he's the only one killing and your healing. Go on the Offense! It will kill off the badguys sooner and that means fewer attack rounds on the fighter, and that means less damage. Use long lasting buffs on him outside of combat, then in combat unload some damage spells, or battlefield control spells, or save or dies. I don't know what a spirit shaman is but the cleric could cast Magic vestment for +1 to the fighters AC a pity he doesn't have a buckler and Improved Buckler Defense, that could up his AC by +4 with an ordinary buckler and at 1/hour per level it will last all day. The cleric could also cast Shield other on the Fighter and hang back and use ranged offensive spells like: Blade Barrier, Flame Strike, or better yet Summon a few monsters to soak up attacks and provide flanking bonus. The Bard should also Summon Monsters and sing the buff song, rather than healing; casting Slow on your Enemies will up the Fighters AC by giving out -2 to badguys and prevent full attacks so you don't have to heal as much. Now that I have read your last post I think its more of a tactics problem than a AC problem. Good luck! Take the fight to the badguys offense is the best defense!
Tony Vargas 07-06-05, 04:50 PM	He's not having trouble surviving with his existing con score. He's had hardly any close calls within the last 3 levels. His combat lifespan is not an issue. Good. I can understand the original question, now. Even though he may be getting buy mainly on his hps, more than his AC, every reduction in AC can still hurt. Lower AC means being more vulnerable to marginal attacks, like secondary or itterative attacks, or attacks that face penalties for whatever reasons (range, cover, magical protections, manuevers, etc) and being a prime target for Power Attacks. The fact that his AC may be a little low is a reason to try to improve that AC, not to give up on it and accept an even lower one. Downgrading to a lighter armor might make sense, though, he has (or can get) the DEX to take full advantage of it. For instance, he could go to a Mithral Breastplate, getting improved mobility, and, if he could get his DEX up to 18, he'd have the same AC as he would in normal Full Plate. If his DEX is 13 or less and there's no prospect of boosting it, though, the AC sacrifice of going to lighter armor probably wouldn't be worth it. Certainly giving up on armor entirely would make no sense (the most you'd want to do is go to a light armor, like a chain shirt or mithral breastplate or celestial mail).
Earthcrosser599 07-07-05, 03:10 AM	Your fighters getting hit all the time because hes a damage magnet because he is the sole offense in your party. Well, the fighter and the warmage are the damage batteries. The fighter is the only melee combatant, which means he's in front all the time. The bard gets in there when he's not casting cure spells or singing but most of the time the monsters don't pay much attention to him.