Armor check penalty: 0. Wait, why aren't I wearing this? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Armor check penalty: 0. Wait, why aren't I wearing this? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
inthesto
12-15-06, 02:03 AM Okay, not being proficient in a certain type of armor means you apply its armor check penalty to all attacks and movement-based skill checks. This seems perfectly fine, except for the fact that most light armor and light shields either don't have an armor check penalty or can get it eliminated through masterwork or mithral.

While this isn't an insanely debilitating issue due to the fact that most people are proficient with these things, but is there really anything stopping a sorceror or wizard from investing in a +1 mithral twilight chain shirt and a mithral buckler?

Well, asides from the obvious answer of "You have much better things to be spending that 6105 gp on".
Salla
12-15-06, 02:05 AM Okay, not being proficient in a certain type of armor means you apply its armor check penalty to all attacks and movement-based skill checks. This seems perfectly fine, except for the fact that most light armor and light shields either don't have an armor check penalty or can get it eliminated through masterwork or mithral.

While this isn't an insanely debilitating issue due to the fact that most people are proficient with these things, but is there really anything stopping a sorceror or wizard from investing in a +1 mithral twilight chain shirt and a mithral buckler?

Well, asides from the obvious answer of "You have much better things to be spending that 6105 gp on".

Absolutely nothng. Smart sorcs and wizards will invest in items like that ASAP. :)
SephDragoon
12-15-06, 02:08 AM Wait... if you are proficient in the armor, you don't take any armor penalty? So... that huge penalty from full plate disapears if you have heavy armor proficiency?

I don't understand what this is going on about.
Salla
12-15-06, 02:11 AM Wait... if you are proficient in the armor, you don't take any armor penalty? So... that huge penalty from full plate disapears if you have heavy armor proficiency?

I don't understand what this is going on about.

No ... if you're not proficient with the armor, you take its armor check penalty on all attack rolls and movement-based skills. If the armor has an ACP of zero, there's no penalty to wearing it, regardless of proficiency.
inthesto
12-15-06, 02:12 AM Wait... if you are proficient in the armor, you don't take any armor penalty? So... that huge penalty from full plate disapears if you have heavy armor proficiency?

I don't understand what this is going on about.

If you wear armor you are not proficient in using, you take the armor check penalty to all attack rolls and all movement-based skills. With proficiency, the armor check penalty only applies to the standard armor check penalty list (Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Sleight of Hand, Tumble).

The reason why I'm bringing this up is because this makes the penalties for wearing mostly erasable armor check penalties non-existent. I mean, the question of whether or not a rogue can wear mithral breastplate is almost bunk.
Reversefigure4
12-15-06, 02:33 AM Well, there's flavour stopping them. Not everyone wants their mage to be wearing armour, even if he can get away with it.

There's also the fact that Mage Armour gives you most of the benefit at only the cost of a 1st level spell, and will last most of the day by the time you cast it.
DKClare
12-15-06, 02:50 AM It's completely OK to wear a armor with no drawback even you are not proficient in.

In fact, you can found in the Expanded Psionic Handbook, in the starting package of a Psion, there also include a armor that the Psion class is not proficient in.
SephDragoon
12-15-06, 06:40 PM Ok... for a second there I was freaking out. I had never bothered to look up non-proficiency rules, since I have never used armor I wasn't proficient in.

And one of my mages wears armor... albeit a mithril chain shirt, which is compeltely nullified by the great mage armor spell, and doesn't give spell failure due to being a battle sorcerer... but I still wear it FOR the flavor of a battle sorcerer :P.
Deep Blue 9000
12-15-06, 07:31 PM For arcane casters the ASF is much more of an issue than the armor check penalty. They only use it for touch attacks which always hit at higher levels anyway.

As a wizard, I'd probably wear AC -8 heavy armor if it had ASF 0%.
Eikre
12-15-06, 08:30 PM For arcane casters the ASF is much more of an issue than the armor check penalty. They only use it for touch attacks which always hit at higher levels anyway.

As a wizard, I'd probably wear AC -8 heavy armor if it had ASF 0%.

Grab a mithril breastplate with Twightlight and Thistledown Padding, then. 0% ASF, -3 check penalty. One armor point over the Chain.
StevenO
12-15-06, 08:56 PM Any armor with an ACP = 0 is easy enough to wear that not being proficient with it is not really a problem. You may want to double the time it takes to put on or remove said armor for a non-proficient user but that typically has no game effect.

As stated there are few reason not to wear an ACP 0 armor even without proficiency. Asthetics (or fitting with character concept if you want) is one. A remaining ASF is another. Armor normally doesn't help against touch or incoporeal attacks. And finally you may have better things to spend your money on (although I doubt it.)
Rulebook
12-15-06, 09:32 PM add to that there's no penalty for sleeping in light armor...
jeffepp
12-15-06, 10:10 PM And it's worth noting that, just because it is in the books, DOES NOT mean that your DM is going to let you get it, whether or not your character has the gold or not. And if he does, the actual cost (quests, treasure, and cash) may be far in excess of what the simple market price is. There are reasons that most Arcane casters are not walking around in this stuff besides fluff.
runestar
12-15-06, 10:25 PM Nothing really, barring dm intervention.:) Your psion can wear a fullplate if he is willing to suck up the massive penalties.

I doubt there's anything better to spend the money on, when you consider the opportunity cost of investing in bracers of armour is actually much greater...

Mage armour spell may be useful, but as you go higher lv, +4 heavy fortification twillight mithral chain shirt beats bracers of armour anyday.:)
Rulebook
12-16-06, 08:10 AM and really, have you looked at the prereqs to make Twilight? theres NO SPELL requirement, just a caster level. that means anybody of proper caster level with the feat can make it!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
inthesto 12-15-06, 02:03 AM	Okay, not being proficient in a certain type of armor means you apply its armor check penalty to all attacks and movement-based skill checks. This seems perfectly fine, except for the fact that most light armor and light shields either don't have an armor check penalty or can get it eliminated through masterwork or mithral. While this isn't an insanely debilitating issue due to the fact that most people are proficient with these things, but is there really anything stopping a sorceror or wizard from investing in a +1 mithral twilight chain shirt and a mithral buckler? Well, asides from the obvious answer of "You have much better things to be spending that 6105 gp on".
Salla 12-15-06, 02:05 AM	Okay, not being proficient in a certain type of armor means you apply its armor check penalty to all attacks and movement-based skill checks. This seems perfectly fine, except for the fact that most light armor and light shields either don't have an armor check penalty or can get it eliminated through masterwork or mithral. While this isn't an insanely debilitating issue due to the fact that most people are proficient with these things, but is there really anything stopping a sorceror or wizard from investing in a +1 mithral twilight chain shirt and a mithral buckler? Well, asides from the obvious answer of "You have much better things to be spending that 6105 gp on". Absolutely nothng. Smart sorcs and wizards will invest in items like that ASAP. :)
SephDragoon 12-15-06, 02:08 AM	Wait... if you are proficient in the armor, you don't take any armor penalty? So... that huge penalty from full plate disapears if you have heavy armor proficiency? I don't understand what this is going on about.
Salla 12-15-06, 02:11 AM	Wait... if you are proficient in the armor, you don't take any armor penalty? So... that huge penalty from full plate disapears if you have heavy armor proficiency? I don't understand what this is going on about. No ... if you're not proficient with the armor, you take its armor check penalty on all attack rolls and movement-based skills. If the armor has an ACP of zero, there's no penalty to wearing it, regardless of proficiency.
inthesto 12-15-06, 02:12 AM	Wait... if you are proficient in the armor, you don't take any armor penalty? So... that huge penalty from full plate disapears if you have heavy armor proficiency? I don't understand what this is going on about. If you wear armor you are not proficient in using, you take the armor check penalty to all attack rolls and all movement-based skills. With proficiency, the armor check penalty only applies to the standard armor check penalty list (Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Sleight of Hand, Tumble). The reason why I'm bringing this up is because this makes the penalties for wearing mostly erasable armor check penalties non-existent. I mean, the question of whether or not a rogue can wear mithral breastplate is almost bunk.
Reversefigure4 12-15-06, 02:33 AM	Well, there's flavour stopping them. Not everyone wants their mage to be wearing armour, even if he can get away with it. There's also the fact that Mage Armour gives you most of the benefit at only the cost of a 1st level spell, and will last most of the day by the time you cast it.
DKClare 12-15-06, 02:50 AM	It's completely OK to wear a armor with no drawback even you are not proficient in. In fact, you can found in the Expanded Psionic Handbook, in the starting package of a Psion, there also include a armor that the Psion class is not proficient in.
SephDragoon 12-15-06, 06:40 PM	Ok... for a second there I was freaking out. I had never bothered to look up non-proficiency rules, since I have never used armor I wasn't proficient in. And one of my mages wears armor... albeit a mithril chain shirt, which is compeltely nullified by the great mage armor spell, and doesn't give spell failure due to being a battle sorcerer... but I still wear it FOR the flavor of a battle sorcerer :P.
Deep Blue 9000 12-15-06, 07:31 PM	For arcane casters the ASF is much more of an issue than the armor check penalty. They only use it for touch attacks which always hit at higher levels anyway. As a wizard, I'd probably wear AC -8 heavy armor if it had ASF 0%.
Eikre 12-15-06, 08:30 PM	For arcane casters the ASF is much more of an issue than the armor check penalty. They only use it for touch attacks which always hit at higher levels anyway. As a wizard, I'd probably wear AC -8 heavy armor if it had ASF 0%. Grab a mithril breastplate with Twightlight and Thistledown Padding, then. 0% ASF, -3 check penalty. One armor point over the Chain.
StevenO 12-15-06, 08:56 PM	Any armor with an ACP = 0 is easy enough to wear that not being proficient with it is not really a problem. You may want to double the time it takes to put on or remove said armor for a non-proficient user but that typically has no game effect. As stated there are few reason not to wear an ACP 0 armor even without proficiency. Asthetics (or fitting with character concept if you want) is one. A remaining ASF is another. Armor normally doesn't help against touch or incoporeal attacks. And finally you may have better things to spend your money on (although I doubt it.)
Rulebook 12-15-06, 09:32 PM	add to that there's no penalty for sleeping in light armor...
jeffepp 12-15-06, 10:10 PM	And it's worth noting that, just because it is in the books, DOES NOT mean that your DM is going to let you get it, whether or not your character has the gold or not. And if he does, the actual cost (quests, treasure, and cash) may be far in excess of what the simple market price is. There are reasons that most Arcane casters are not walking around in this stuff besides fluff.
runestar 12-15-06, 10:25 PM	Nothing really, barring dm intervention.:) Your psion can wear a fullplate if he is willing to suck up the massive penalties. I doubt there's anything better to spend the money on, when you consider the opportunity cost of investing in bracers of armour is actually much greater... Mage armour spell may be useful, but as you go higher lv, +4 heavy fortification twillight mithral chain shirt beats bracers of armour anyday.:)
Rulebook 12-16-06, 08:10 AM	and really, have you looked at the prereqs to make Twilight? theres NO SPELL requirement, just a caster level. that means anybody of proper caster level with the feat can make it!