Armor creation question #2- haste. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Armor creation question #2- haste. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DeadEye19
06-05-05, 01:10 PM I want to add a limited haste ability in an "not-broken" way, though even I used the DMG, I have problem pricing it, so help would be much appreciated.

Option 1- Just like boots of speed (an item that costs 12,000gp)- 10 rounds, very similiar to haste,free action to use, rounds are not necessarily consecutive. As an armor ability, how much would it add to the market price?

Option 2-The Haste spell, at 10 caster level, one/two uses a day, rounds are consecutive. I figured it should cost less( if it's 1 use), because the rounds are made consecutive. How much would that add to the market price- per use per day?
CaoSlayer
06-05-05, 02:23 PM you know what that enchanment it is already at the DMG?
DeadEye19
06-05-05, 02:51 PM No, speed is not an armor ability- it's a weapon ability. And I'm thinking about a boots-of-speed-like version of it, or just the use of the haste spell. Unfortunatly, I could not figured the price from the table in the DMG-I really tried. I know some guys here are good at conculating this things, so I'm asking for help.
Leobardis
06-05-05, 05:57 PM Normally, if the item dosen't take up a slot on the body, you just add the price of the new item/ability to whatever the price is of the original item you're making. If the Item does take up a body slot (like in this case) you multiply the new item/ability price by 1.5 and add it to the original item price. At least, that's what the DMG says on adding abilities to items. (pg. 288)

(Ex.)
So your +1 Full Plate would normally cost 2,650 and the new ability you want to add is the 'boots of speed' which cost 12,000. So, since the armor takes up a body slot you multipy the boots cost by 1.5 (18,000) and add that to the original price of the armor leaving you with a total of 20,650 and would work exactly as described for the 'boots of speed' in the DMG.
DeadEye19
06-06-05, 12:24 AM Thanks.
And how about the one/two uses per day version? I couldn't figure out what the "divide by(5divided by uses per day)" means. Can someone explain?
Tsuul
06-06-05, 01:15 AM Unfortunatly, I could not figured the price from the table in the DMGThat's because the price given for boots of Speed have been adjusted for playability. That kind of adjustment can not be found on any table.
When determining the prices of new or different magic items it is always best to compare the price to other similar items before using the tables. In the case of Armor of Speed, use the boots as a base price then add in the unconventional slot adjustment and you are finished.
Reducing the uses per day would work by using the formulas
Tsuul
06-06-05, 01:32 AM divide by(5divided by uses per day)Means to do exactly that. Its weird math.
If you want 5 charges per day the price stays the same.(5/5 = 1)
If you want 10 charges per day, then the price doubles. (double the uses, double the price)
If you want 3 charges per day then you pay 3/5ths the full price. (lessen the uses, lessen the price)

You can change the formula to
"Price multiplied by (uses per day divided by 5)" if that makes more sense.
Price*(x/5)
DeadEye19
06-06-05, 02:55 PM Which leads to the question- what price? Isn't there a price for a spell ability in an item? I'm really not getting it, I appologize but I thank you for your help.
dragonseth
06-06-05, 03:06 PM So with said math, could you get Boots of Speed that you can use for 20 rounds at double the price? 24,000?
Tsuul
06-06-05, 04:09 PM DeadEye19, CaoSlayer is correct, there is a speed option for armor.
Look at Mithril Full Plate of Speed. Use that armor as a baseline.

dragonseth, doubling the charges doubles the price. But with all magic item pricing, this can get altered by your DM. I don't mean by rule 0 either, I mean that the DM has to evaluate every item entering into his world.
The rules would make it legal to increase the charges on a Ring of the Ram to 100 charges to make it into an unlimited charged item for double the price. Things like that need to be avoided.
dragonseth
06-06-05, 04:22 PM Just out of curiosity, how does 100 charges make it unlimited?
TheMagister
06-06-05, 06:23 PM pretty sure he meant "from 100 charges to unlimited". Simple typo.

TM
dragonseth
06-06-05, 07:10 PM Okay, but even then is there a ruling that with like 200 charges it becomes unlimited? Or did he just mean doubling over and over and over......... :drool:
Tsuul
06-06-05, 08:32 PM The 100 charges = unlimited is a bad math conclusion derived from the Charged(50 charges) line on Table-7-33.
To take an unlimited use item (like a bag of holding) and give it 50 charges of use before becomes non-magical, will cut the price in half. That's what the line in the table suggests.
Does that mean that the reverse of that formula is true? No.
If it were true, you could pay double price for wands or staffs that never run out of charges.
The formula, however, is in the book.
DeadEye19
06-07-05, 04:55 AM CaoSlayer,sorry, I now see you were indeed right... I thought you ment armor ability, not a specific armor.

Ok, I will now do the math.
Mithral Full Plate of Speed Costs 26,500 Gp. Lets break it down to find the Haste component in here:
26,500- 1,650 (the price of full plate armor )=25,000;
25,000- 9000 ( the cost of making a heavy armor made of mithral)=16,000;
16,000-1000 (the cost of +1 enchantment) =15,000.
15,000= the speed property.
I think I got it right. Thank you, CaoSlayer and Tsuul. You really were of great help!
kenichi
06-07-05, 10:17 AM DeadEye19, nice breakdown, but you could also look at the Speed ability being equivalent to a +3 ability.
A suit off Platemail of Speed is the exact cost of +4 armor. So by setting the haste ability as a bonus equivalent rather than a gold piece amount, the cheapest you can get it for is 15,000 and it rapidly gets more expensive if you apply it to more than a +1 suit of armor.
DeadEye19
06-07-05, 12:43 PM You are right. It's exactly the Deficient between +4 to +1. Never thought about it. Now I'm really confused. If you calculate it as the boots of speed ability woven into a suit of armor, it costs 18,000GP. If you use my breakedown, it's 15,000GP, but if you consider it to be an ability at +3, it will be problematic, since the armor is already is +5.
So, what is the verdict? which methood do you think I should use? I really want to be fair with my player (he isn't making the armor for himself), but I don't want to go easy on him if it's not justified.

When I look at the price of a Lion shield, for example, the lion special ability indeed costs like a+1 ability.
However, when I take a look at a Banded mail of luck, the luck property does not costs like a +1 or +2 ability, even if you add 1000 gp because of the gems.
When I look at the spined shield, it's ability does not costs like any "+" either.
Does that means that armor/weapon abilities of specific armors should not be calculated as "+" to the item price? Many arnor abilities does not count as pluses after all, just additions to the price of the item.

Any further help determing the price abjusment would be very appriciated.
Tsuul
06-07-05, 01:06 PM I never understood why there seems like two ways of making armor.
kenichi is probably on the right track in having it a +3 ability.
DeadEye19
06-07-05, 03:48 PM Hmm... It might. My player wouldn't like that...
Why didn't they listed it as an ability? Maybe it's not ment to be over-used?
It's really a tough call. There are many "fixed" abilities are added as enchantment bonuses.But this case might just be a coincidence-in many cases, the abilities of specific armors don't fit to the enchantment bonuses table prices(+1 to +10).

If I would use the cost for giving the armor the ability of a different item type, it would be a fixed price of 18,000. If your player would have asked to rule on this, what would be the verdict?

What if the player chooses to make it just like the haste spell, at caster level 10, 1,2 or three times per day?
Isn't there a formula, like: Spell levelx(parameter)xcaster levelxuses per day?
DeadEye19
06-08-05, 01:55 PM Is there a :
Spell levelx(parameter)xcaster levelxuses per day formula to figure the price of adding a spell that can be used a number of times per day?
Anyone?
Tsuul
06-08-05, 03:09 PM Is there a :
Spell levelx(parameter)xcaster levelxuses per day formula to figure the price of adding a spell that can be used a number of times per day?Yes, it is the result of multiple formulas.
First you figure out the price for spell in an item. Lantern of revealing is a use activated or continuous item it uses:
spell level * caster level * 2000gp = price

Then you stick that price into the charges per day formula:
price / (5/charges_per_day) = reduced_price

But resort to the formulas as a last resort.
The Speed on armor property is more powerful then the Speed ability on a weapon and should cost more.
The Mithril FullPlate of Speed at +3 cost is a bargain IMO.
DeadEye19
06-09-05, 03:04 AM So, basicly, it says that 5 uses per day is a lot, and it's just about as good as continues? Makes sense.

I don't think it's more powerful. It does grants the extra attack, speed, AB and AC but for 10 rounds only, while the weapon of speed continuesly grants the extra attack- the main power of the haste spell. Indeed, it's safe to say that it should be +3.

I know you said that formulas shold be used only as a last resort, but I think that the resoult, 12,000GP per use per day, is a very exceptable one, since it's really a haste spell, it lasts for 10 consecutive rounds.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DeadEye19 06-05-05, 01:10 PM	I want to add a limited haste ability in an "not-broken" way, though even I used the DMG, I have problem pricing it, so help would be much appreciated. Option 1- Just like boots of speed (an item that costs 12,000gp)- 10 rounds, very similiar to haste,free action to use, rounds are not necessarily consecutive. As an armor ability, how much would it add to the market price? Option 2-The Haste spell, at 10 caster level, one/two uses a day, rounds are consecutive. I figured it should cost less( if it's 1 use), because the rounds are made consecutive. How much would that add to the market price- per use per day?
CaoSlayer 06-05-05, 02:23 PM	you know what that enchanment it is already at the DMG?
DeadEye19 06-05-05, 02:51 PM	No, speed is not an armor ability- it's a weapon ability. And I'm thinking about a boots-of-speed-like version of it, or just the use of the haste spell. Unfortunatly, I could not figured the price from the table in the DMG-I really tried. I know some guys here are good at conculating this things, so I'm asking for help.
Leobardis 06-05-05, 05:57 PM	Normally, if the item dosen't take up a slot on the body, you just add the price of the new item/ability to whatever the price is of the original item you're making. If the Item does take up a body slot (like in this case) you multiply the new item/ability price by 1.5 and add it to the original item price. At least, that's what the DMG says on adding abilities to items. (pg. 288) (Ex.) So your +1 Full Plate would normally cost 2,650 and the new ability you want to add is the 'boots of speed' which cost 12,000. So, since the armor takes up a body slot you multipy the boots cost by 1.5 (18,000) and add that to the original price of the armor leaving you with a total of 20,650 and would work exactly as described for the 'boots of speed' in the DMG.
DeadEye19 06-06-05, 12:24 AM	Thanks. And how about the one/two uses per day version? I couldn't figure out what the "divide by(5divided by uses per day)" means. Can someone explain?
Tsuul 06-06-05, 01:15 AM	Unfortunatly, I could not figured the price from the table in the DMGThat's because the price given for boots of Speed have been adjusted for playability. That kind of adjustment can not be found on any table. When determining the prices of new or different magic items it is always best to compare the price to other similar items before using the tables. In the case of Armor of Speed, use the boots as a base price then add in the unconventional slot adjustment and you are finished. Reducing the uses per day would work by using the formulas
Tsuul 06-06-05, 01:32 AM	divide by(5divided by uses per day)Means to do exactly that. Its weird math. If you want 5 charges per day the price stays the same.(5/5 = 1) If you want 10 charges per day, then the price doubles. (double the uses, double the price) If you want 3 charges per day then you pay 3/5ths the full price. (lessen the uses, lessen the price) You can change the formula to "Price multiplied by (uses per day divided by 5)" if that makes more sense. Price*(x/5)
DeadEye19 06-06-05, 02:55 PM	Which leads to the question- what price? Isn't there a price for a spell ability in an item? I'm really not getting it, I appologize but I thank you for your help.
dragonseth 06-06-05, 03:06 PM	So with said math, could you get Boots of Speed that you can use for 20 rounds at double the price? 24,000?
Tsuul 06-06-05, 04:09 PM	DeadEye19, CaoSlayer is correct, there is a speed option for armor. Look at Mithril Full Plate of Speed. Use that armor as a baseline. dragonseth, doubling the charges doubles the price. But with all magic item pricing, this can get altered by your DM. I don't mean by rule 0 either, I mean that the DM has to evaluate every item entering into his world. The rules would make it legal to increase the charges on a Ring of the Ram to 100 charges to make it into an unlimited charged item for double the price. Things like that need to be avoided.
dragonseth 06-06-05, 04:22 PM	Just out of curiosity, how does 100 charges make it unlimited?
TheMagister 06-06-05, 06:23 PM	pretty sure he meant "from 100 charges to unlimited". Simple typo. TM
dragonseth 06-06-05, 07:10 PM	Okay, but even then is there a ruling that with like 200 charges it becomes unlimited? Or did he just mean doubling over and over and over......... :drool:
Tsuul 06-06-05, 08:32 PM	The 100 charges = unlimited is a bad math conclusion derived from the Charged(50 charges) line on Table-7-33. To take an unlimited use item (like a bag of holding) and give it 50 charges of use before becomes non-magical, will cut the price in half. That's what the line in the table suggests. Does that mean that the reverse of that formula is true? No. If it were true, you could pay double price for wands or staffs that never run out of charges. The formula, however, is in the book.
DeadEye19 06-07-05, 04:55 AM	CaoSlayer,sorry, I now see you were indeed right... I thought you ment armor ability, not a specific armor. Ok, I will now do the math. Mithral Full Plate of Speed Costs 26,500 Gp. Lets break it down to find the Haste component in here: 26,500- 1,650 (the price of full plate armor )=25,000; 25,000- 9000 ( the cost of making a heavy armor made of mithral)=16,000; 16,000-1000 (the cost of +1 enchantment) =15,000. 15,000= the speed property. I think I got it right. Thank you, CaoSlayer and Tsuul. You really were of great help!
kenichi 06-07-05, 10:17 AM	DeadEye19, nice breakdown, but you could also look at the Speed ability being equivalent to a +3 ability. A suit off Platemail of Speed is the exact cost of +4 armor. So by setting the haste ability as a bonus equivalent rather than a gold piece amount, the cheapest you can get it for is 15,000 and it rapidly gets more expensive if you apply it to more than a +1 suit of armor.
DeadEye19 06-07-05, 12:43 PM	You are right. It's exactly the Deficient between +4 to +1. Never thought about it. Now I'm really confused. If you calculate it as the boots of speed ability woven into a suit of armor, it costs 18,000GP. If you use my breakedown, it's 15,000GP, but if you consider it to be an ability at +3, it will be problematic, since the armor is already is +5. So, what is the verdict? which methood do you think I should use? I really want to be fair with my player (he isn't making the armor for himself), but I don't want to go easy on him if it's not justified. When I look at the price of a Lion shield, for example, the lion special ability indeed costs like a+1 ability. However, when I take a look at a Banded mail of luck, the luck property does not costs like a +1 or +2 ability, even if you add 1000 gp because of the gems. When I look at the spined shield, it's ability does not costs like any "+" either. Does that means that armor/weapon abilities of specific armors should not be calculated as "+" to the item price? Many arnor abilities does not count as pluses after all, just additions to the price of the item. Any further help determing the price abjusment would be very appriciated.
Tsuul 06-07-05, 01:06 PM	I never understood why there seems like two ways of making armor. kenichi is probably on the right track in having it a +3 ability.
DeadEye19 06-07-05, 03:48 PM	Hmm... It might. My player wouldn't like that... Why didn't they listed it as an ability? Maybe it's not ment to be over-used? It's really a tough call. There are many "fixed" abilities are added as enchantment bonuses.But this case might just be a coincidence-in many cases, the abilities of specific armors don't fit to the enchantment bonuses table prices(+1 to +10). If I would use the cost for giving the armor the ability of a different item type, it would be a fixed price of 18,000. If your player would have asked to rule on this, what would be the verdict? What if the player chooses to make it just like the haste spell, at caster level 10, 1,2 or three times per day? Isn't there a formula, like: Spell levelx(parameter)xcaster levelxuses per day?
DeadEye19 06-08-05, 01:55 PM	Is there a : Spell levelx(parameter)xcaster levelxuses per day formula to figure the price of adding a spell that can be used a number of times per day? Anyone?
Tsuul 06-08-05, 03:09 PM	Is there a : Spell levelx(parameter)xcaster levelxuses per day formula to figure the price of adding a spell that can be used a number of times per day?Yes, it is the result of multiple formulas. First you figure out the price for spell in an item. Lantern of revealing is a use activated or continuous item it uses: spell level * caster level * 2000gp = price Then you stick that price into the charges per day formula: price / (5/charges_per_day) = reduced_price But resort to the formulas as a last resort. The Speed on armor property is more powerful then the Speed ability on a weapon and should cost more. The Mithril FullPlate of Speed at +3 cost is a bargain IMO.
DeadEye19 06-09-05, 03:04 AM	So, basicly, it says that 5 uses per day is a lot, and it's just about as good as continues? Makes sense. I don't think it's more powerful. It does grants the extra attack, speed, AB and AC but for 10 rounds only, while the weapon of speed continuesly grants the extra attack- the main power of the haste spell. Indeed, it's safe to say that it should be +3. I know you said that formulas shold be used only as a last resort, but I think that the resoult, 12,000GP per use per day, is a very exceptable one, since it's really a haste spell, it lasts for 10 consecutive rounds.