Post/Author/DateTime	Post
zero_cool 06-07-05, 06:50 PM	The DM guide says that actually, any armor/shiald can have a bonus of +6, but a +5 flaming longsword is considered a +6 for purproses of pricing. Bue there are some special abilities that have not a special ability modifier, i.e. Shadow, the DM states just the price (3750 gp). I have a +2 chainmail, if I want to make it shadow, will my +2 chainmail be considered a +3? or will be a +2 shadow chainmail? Also... the efects of a two rings of protection stacks? Please help me before I shot a +2 arrow of commoner slaying of returning
Rulebook 06-07-05, 06:59 PM	rings of protection provide Deflection bonuses. no, they dont stack.
JadeSpider9643 06-07-05, 07:29 PM	Most aditional armor bonuses like shadowed have a specific cost to add them, they don't price as a +1 or +2 bonus, they price as a +10,000gp price (that's not the right price just an example) So Shadowed +1 armor is still just +1 armor
jaerad 06-07-05, 09:08 PM	Most aditional armor bonuses like shadowed have a specific cost to add them, they don't price as a +1 or +2 bonus, they price as a +10,000gp price (that's not the right price just an example) So Shadowed +1 armor is still just +1 armor If this is the case, why bother paying + enchantment costs at all when you can just pay the monetary/xp (if any) costs of imbueing a spell in. Price via the creation tables in DMG. Why would you take up space that is limited, when you can just pay a lil more and have infinite "slots"? *EDIT* Ex: Why "pay" +2 for Animated when you can price out the creation costs and just pay that? It has the caster level, spell, and use requirements. I'm too lazy to price it right now, but the point is why would you bother choosing between enchantments when you can just pay for them with gold and have as many as you want?
Colmarr 06-07-05, 09:33 PM	Are you asking why incur a +1 pricing adjustment for flaming when you can otherwise enchant the weapon to do +1d6 fire damage and not have it count as a +2 weapon? If so, I think that firstly you'll have trouble finding a way to do exactly what you're suggesting (ie. find a spell that does exactly 1d6 fire damage to a given target) within the rules. Secondly, even if you could do it, it would most likely make the weapon in question a wondrous item, with all the attendant feat, xp, and pricing requirements that brings. Thirdly, even if you could afford to do all of that, no DM with any common sense would allow it given that there are already specific rules addressing the issue.
jaerad 06-07-05, 10:03 PM	If so, I think that firstly you'll have trouble finding a way to do exactly what you're suggesting (ie. find a spell that does exactly 1d6 fire damage to a given target) within the rules. Flame blade, flame strike, or fireball. Caster level 10. Command word, continuous, craft arms and armor. < That's exactly how Flaming is made in the first place. Secondly, even if you could do it, it would most likely make the weapon in question a wondrous item, with all the attendant feat, xp, and pricing requirements that brings. Money is easier to get than extra enchantment slots, even if your DM is tight with it. Let alone monty-haul campaigns. Thirdly, even if you could afford to do all of that, no DM with any common sense would allow it given that there are already specific rules addressing the issue. Ya, this is the obvious derailment. But what about going through books your DM doesn't have and finding enchantments you like. Price it out and bring it to him without showing him that it's been printed up already. And what about expanding on an enchantment? Price out the differences, and pay for it with money instead of +s. My point is just that there needs to be some way of equating all prices back to enchantment equivalents. Otherwise, you end up in a situation where you're better off finding a spell that has similar effects to price out, or pricing out the same spell and maybe tweaking the benefits a bit to change the price.
NeueRegel 06-07-05, 10:49 PM	Skip answered all these questions for us already, peeps. I just pointed somebody to his article a week ago. Without looking backwards to see who asked/said what, the reason you don't get "infinite slots" for gold only is due to the limitations on how much xp the creator can drop in one "sitting". It's Rules of the Game, Making Magic Items, #4 or 5 or 6, I believe. I can't be bothered right now. Neue
jaerad 06-08-05, 12:44 AM	Without looking backwards to see who asked/said what, the reason you don't get "infinite slots" for gold only is due to the limitations on how much xp the creator can drop in one "sitting". I don't see how this applies. You hardly need to put all the enchantments on at once. You could still go enchantment at a time. Unless you think that the exp. used in Flame Blade and Flame Strike/Fireball is too much to drop at once (to use my previous example of Flaming). Weapon, Armor, and Shield Miscellany: No weapon, armor, or shield made with the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat can have an actual enhancement bonus higher than +5 or an effective enhancement bonus (after adjustments for special abilities) higher than +10. The epic rules allow epic item creators to break these limits. When special properties have prices expressed in gold pieces, there is no limit to the number of those properties you can add, even if you're not playing an epic game. However, the limits on how much experience a character can spend at once (see Part One) set a practical limit on how powerful an item a non-epic character can make. Ok fine. So one non-epic character can't make the whole thing all at once. Still doesn't detract from slowly accumulating enchantments - which could be done from other crafters, and Epic crafters (if you were to locate/hire one at least).
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer 06-08-05, 03:08 AM	The DM guide says that actually, any armor/shiald can have a bonus of +6, but a +5 flaming longsword is considered a +6 for purproses of pricing. Bue there are some special abilities that have not a special ability modifier, i.e. Shadow, the DM states just the price (3750 gp). An item can have a max Enchantment bonus of +5. It can only have +10 worth of Enchantments. It is a little confusing since they refer to both as enchantment. The bonus is +5 max, the total enchantments is +10 max. There are also some effects that just add a price. I have a +2 chainmail, if I want to make it shadow, will my +2 chainmail be considered a +3? or will be a +2 shadow chainmail? +2 shadow chainmail. Also... the efects of a two rings of protection stacks? The same type of bonus does not stack. So two deflection bonuses or two insight bonuses would not stack. So if you have Ring of protection +1 and the spell Shield of Faith (adding +2 Deflection bonus to AC) cast on you, you have a +2 Deflection bonus. There are 3 cases which break this rule. Dodge bonuses always stack on top of each other. The Enhancement bonus for a Shield stacks with the Enhancement bonus with armor. Innate Natural Armor stacks with magical natural armor.
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer 06-08-05, 03:12 AM	If this is the case, why bother paying + enchantment costs at all when you can just pay the monetary/xp (if any) costs of imbueing a spell in. Price via the creation tables in DMG. Why would you take up space that is limited, when you can just pay a lil more and have infinite "slots"? *EDIT* Ex: Why "pay" +2 for Animated when you can price out the creation costs and just pay that? It has the caster level, spell, and use requirements. I'm too lazy to price it right now, but the point is why would you bother choosing between enchantments when you can just pay for them with gold and have as many as you want? That is the same as asking why pay for the enchantment in the first place because I can have the spellcaster cast Greater Magic Weapon on it. Because you are required, time, money, and consent by the DM. maybe it is cheaper, maybe it isn't (I am not going to price out Greater Magic Weapon on a weapon). Any DM that allowed it may as well just turn things into a Monty Haul campaign.
jaerad 06-08-05, 12:24 PM	But what about going through books your DM doesn't have and finding enchantments you like. Price it out and bring it to him without showing him that it's been printed up already. If you have no problem lying to your DM (not suggesting lying to your friends), then here is a simple way to get enchantments without taking up "slots." Let's take Paralyzing from BoED, without actually taking the time to price it, just follow example. Your DM doesn't know that it has an enchantment equivalent, she just knows that you priced it out as such and such. She checks the math, s'ok. Thinks about price, eh - s'ok. Thinks about availability.. hmmm, 5th level spell, not uncommon... s'ok. Maybe makes you RP a lil to find someone to do it - but you'd probably get the same even if she knew it was a + enchancement. You've now traded a +2 enchantment for x gp cost. Net gain IMO. Without lying to your DM: you could improve enchantments, and argue that it should only cost money and not extra + slots. Etc etc. My point with all this is that I think all "enchantments" should have an enchantment equivalent. That, or there should be some way of determining what abilities constitute a + slot, and which are purely monetary.
Nephlite 06-08-05, 01:05 PM	I don't see how this applies. You hardly need to put all the enchantments on at once. You could still go enchantment at a time. Unless you think that the exp. used in Flame Blade and Flame Strike/Fireball is too much to drop at once (to use my previous example of Flaming). Weapon, Armor, and Shield Miscellany: No weapon, armor, or shield made with the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat can have an actual enhancement bonus higher than +5 or an effective enhancement bonus (after adjustments for special abilities) higher than +10. The epic rules allow epic item creators to break these limits. When special properties have prices expressed in gold pieces, there is no limit to the number of those properties you can add, even if you're not playing an epic game. However, the limits on how much experience a character can spend at once (see Part One) set a practical limit on how powerful an item a non-epic character can make. Ok fine. So one non-epic character can't make the whole thing all at once. Still doesn't detract from slowly accumulating enchantments - which could be done from other crafters, and Epic crafters (if you were to locate/hire one at least). Dude, I just told my DM that rule, his jaw dropped.
jaerad 06-08-05, 01:14 PM	Dude, I just told my DM that rule, his jaw dropped. LOL. To be fair, I'm not advocating this stuff. I'm also not sharing the rules that I use. I'm just saying that it's possible. My contention is mostly that either there should be limits on number of enchantments or the limit is cost/availability. Either everything you can put on a weapon (aside from materials, oc) should have an enchantment equivalent, or enchantments should be purely the +1 attack/damage/AC type and everything else is just price. I haven't really decided what to do with all this. I don't understand why some abilities are just priced and not EEs (enchantment equivalents). There doesn't seem to be any reason for it. The only difference I note is that purely priced enchantments tend to be more like side benefits. Upon closer inspection is seems that there are no weapon enchancements that do not have a EE. At least in DMG, too lazy to start checking through other books.