Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Serith7 01-11-05, 03:25 AM	A matter of some dispute amongst our group, the question is whether elves, who do not sleep, would suffer from the penalties imposed by sleeping in medium or heavy armor. Considering that elves trance/meditate instead of sleeping and the only other references to meditation involve divine casters with no reference to armor related fatigue. In addition I would be lead to believe that the fatiguing factor of armor, in relation to sleep, is due to lack of moblity rather than weight as certain light armors are equal in weight to medium armors. If this is true and meditation consists of stillness of body during inner contemplation then restricting aspects of armor would have no effect on meditation. It is my belief, therefore, that elves trancing would not suffer from fatigue, however, I am interested in hearing others views on this matter.
Nom 01-11-05, 08:47 AM	The easiest answer is that the rules in question (PH pg 15) don't give much mechanical information. The only real mechanical information is that 4 hours of trance = 8 hours of sleep. Certainly, it is not listed as a "racial trait". Without further statements to the contrary, the obvious mechanic is to say trance = sleep in all but name. Interestingly, neither "in trance" or "asleep"/"sleeping" is listed as a condition, but sleeping is mentioned in both listen (-10 penalty) and "helpless" (asleep -> helpless). Given that trance is equivalent to sleep unless otherwise specified, I'd apply "sleeping in armour" penalties to a character in a trance.
No-man 01-11-05, 10:09 AM	Ditto, penalties would apply. Imagine a meditating person, sitting on the floor with legs crossed. Imagine that person in armor. Not comfortable, and in some armors, the position would not even be attainable.
pyk 01-11-05, 12:14 PM	The easiest answer is that the rules in question (PH pg 15) don't give much mechanical information. The only real mechanical information is that 4 hours of trance = 8 hours of sleep. Certainly, it is not listed as a "racial trait". Without further statements to the contrary, the obvious mechanic is to say trance = sleep in all but name. Interestingly, neither "in trance" or "asleep"/"sleeping" is listed as a condition, but sleeping is mentioned in both listen (-10 penalty) and "helpless" (asleep -> helpless). Given that trance is equivalent to sleep unless otherwise specified, I'd apply "sleeping in armour" penalties to a character in a trance. Except there are statements to the contrary. For instance: Elves do not sleep, as members of the other common races do. Instead, an elf meditates in a deep trance for 4 hours a day. An elf resting in this fashion gains the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep. If trance equaled sleep, then the elves section would not have the line "elves do not sleep". They may get the same benefits that humans get from eight hours of sleep, but this does not mean they get all the penalties as well.
Lionhearted 01-11-05, 12:50 PM	plus the fact that elves are fully aware of their surronding while trancing
mercurial67 01-11-05, 01:20 PM	plus the fact that elves are fully aware of their surronding while trancingWhat makes you say that? There is nothing which indicates it and the text actually says deep trance. This to me indicates they are not aware of their surroundings anymore than someone who is sleeping. As for myself, I consider the trance to be the same as sleep and apply the same penalties for sleeping in armor. The entire reason for the penalties is to prevent everyone from being in their tough armor 24/7. It makes the characters a bit more vulnerable when they are sleeping/resting unless they decide they want to be fatigued the next day.
Vahenir 01-11-05, 01:37 PM	Tolkien Elves can go into their "trance" while standing up and looking off into the distance, and remain vaguely aware of everything around them while in this state. Dragonlance Elves actually lay down and "sleep" for awhile. Which are your Elves more like? If your vision of Elven trance allows Elves to do it standing up, or in any other position - then fatigue from armour wouldn't apply. Otherwise, the penalties apply.
Terraneaux 01-11-05, 01:46 PM	I imagine the reasons for armor fatigue have to do with the fact that while wearing heavy or medium armor one is in a constant state of exertion just to move. Resting in armor is impossible because one cannot acheive a restful state while in restrictive armor; it is probably fairly difficult to breathe with a large amount of chainmail on your chest. Since a "trance" is very much like sleep in all practicality, it requires a certain state of concentration and peace of mind to achieve. I don't really see this as possible while wearing heavy armor.
Ssussunriyh 01-11-05, 01:55 PM	Fluff text and non-gaming fiction aside, for all practical purposes, trance = sleep. Any character who does either one without making themselves as comfortable as possible will regret it the next day. I wonder at the reasoning behind asking this question in the first place. Is it an attempt to circumvent the rules? If so, nip it in the bud before it becomes a blatant abuse.
Serith7 01-11-05, 07:57 PM	I believe Nom has made the only truly valid point to the effect that penalties would still apply, in saying that it is not a racial trait. If one would read my first post other arguments to that effect are null... Ditto, penalties would apply. Imagine a meditating person, sitting on the floor with legs crossed. Imagine that person in armor. Not comfortable, and in some armors, the position would not even be attainable. the only other reference to meditation implies that comfort is not an issue as divine casters can meditate in any armor I imagine the reasons for armor fatigue have to do with the fact that while wearing heavy or medium armor one is in a constant state of exertion just to move. Resting in armor is impossible because one cannot acheive a restful state while in restrictive armor; it is probably fairly difficult to breathe with a large amount of chainmail on your chest. Since a "trance" is very much like sleep in all practicality, it requires a certain state of concentration and peace of mind to achieve. I don't really see this as possible while wearing heavy armor. truly, the restrictive aspect of armor would be a hindrance to a sleeper as one moves in sleep, however only the increased weight would be an issue for a motionless individual, and as I have already pointed out, certain light armors are the equal in weight to medium armors negating this argument. In addition I would not say trance is equal to sleep at all, rather, it is equal to meditation, as the PH states.
Rulebook 01-11-05, 08:08 PM	speaking as somebody who's worn (what the game calls) heavy and medium armors before it would indeed cause fatigue the next day. you people are arguing about the wrong things. its not wether trance = sleep, its wither armor = comfortable or not. armor simply isnt comfortable. light armor gets around this because it dosent mess with you too much. you simply wouldnt be able to maintain a proper trance with the constant annoyance of armor, something in it would always bug you, keeping you at least in part stuck in the real world.
Vahenir 01-11-05, 09:20 PM	I used to wear a mail hauberk during my training with medieval weaponry.. and I'd often go into the house and relax afterward without taking it off. And you know what? I was perfectly comfortable. If I had gone to sleep, I would have woken up sore because of the movement entailed in sleeping - the armour makes the easy movements of sleep more difficult, which tires out the body while its trying to rest. But if you don't move... most armour isn't all that hard to wear. You can maintain a perfectly peaceful and relaxed state of mind while wearing many kinds of armour. The problem is that D&D doesn't really distinguish between what armour you can relax in, and what armour you can't. A cuirass is definitely harder to -relax- while wearing than a mail hauberk (not a mail shirt, mind you) for example.
Rulebook 01-12-05, 12:46 AM	well a hauberk is just basically a long chain shirt, so its pretty much light armor. full chainmail has leggings hood and whatnot. a cuirass is mostly a breastplate. (though leather ones would be light armor as well im sure)
Vahenir 01-12-05, 02:31 AM	well a hauberk is just basically a long chain shirt, so its pretty much light armor. full chainmail has leggings hood and whatnot. Not according to the PH. Leggings and hood are not mentioned anywhere in the "chainmail" description. I actually, always took 'chainmail' to mean a full hauberk - knee-length and elbow-length. And I always took the 'chain shirt' to be a corslet - bicep and thigh length. Those are big differences right there. A shirt of mail is much lighter than a full hauberk. And whether I'm right or not obviously isn't going to be discussed in the PH, but the PH also never mentions leggings or a mail hood. Although I believe those goofy armour pictures include a steel skullcap with 'chainmail.' So a hauberk is Medium armour. a cuirass is mostly a breastplate. (though leather ones would be light armor as well im sure) I imagine. But a hauberk can be (since there is no clear ruling) considered to be medium armour, and it's easy to relax in it. Whereas it's harder to relax in a cuirass (which would be another form of medium armour).
Rulebook 01-12-05, 02:53 AM	wow, a quick web search on what a chain hauberk is pulls up what is discriptionally (and visually) identical to what a chain shirt is. hmm. your full hauberk is just a chian shirt with tails basically. if you thought it was heavier than it was isnt an issue. a chain hauberk is a chain shirt. and look up what a full suit of chainmail looks like, they have leggings (or leg coverings) included as well. for gods sake, look at the picture they use as an example in the PHB. full chain mail is wht the normans wore, with thier big kite shields and whatnot. and a cuirass is a breastplate as i said. a leather cuirass would be leather armor, a linen cuirass would probably count as leather as well, though you could call padded just as easy.
Vahenir 01-12-05, 03:17 AM	wow, a quick web search on what a chain hauberk is pulls up what is discriptionally (and visually) identical to what a chain shirt is. hmm. your full hauberk is just a chian shirt with tails basically. if you thought it was heavier than it was isnt an issue. a chain hauberk is a chain shirt. So Todd's House of Armor and Wipons shows identical pieces of armour.. so they must be. The hauberk is definitely a much longer shirt. If it reaches the knees and wrists, for example.. guess what - it's not the same as a piece of armour that's sleeveless and reaches only the hips or thighs. Big differences. And once again, the PH does not distinguish between what constitutes 'chainmail' and what constitutes a 'chain shirt.' "Chain shirt: A shirt of chainmail protects your torso while leaving your limbs free and mobile..... it comes with a steel cap." "Chainmail: This armor is made of interlocking metal rings. It includes a layer of fabric.. etc etc..... Several layers of mail are hung over vital areas. Most of the armor's weight hangs from the shoulders, making chainmail uncomfortable to wear for long periods of time. It includes gauntlets." Look at that.. no mention of leggings. It comes with gauntlets.. it has several layers of mail hung over vital areas... never says leggings. Actually, it even says most of the weight is on the shoulders. Funny.. when I wore my mail hose, I never felt any weight from them on my -shoulders-. A chain shirt leaves the limbs free and mobile. Odd, because a mail hauberk doesn't - it covers the arms and usually at least half of the legs. Wowie.. those don't sound at all like the same thing, do they? and look up what a full suit of chainmail looks like, they have leggings (or leg coverings) included as well. for gods sake, look at the picture they use as an example in the PHB. Sure, let's look at the pictures drawn by the guy who's never seen functional armour in his life. Wanna look at the PICTURES in the PH? We can do that. Tell me why all the armour looks like some weird, futuristic armour from the old Phantasy Star sega games. Or more or less like something from the old Cyber-influenced RPGs like Shadowrun and crap. Why don't we consider why the picture of half-plate doesn't show all that much mail - even though it's only supposed to be mail covered with plates over "vital areas." Why don't we dicuss how their picture of full plate isn't even feasible for metal armour. We could, if you want, discuss how hide armour simply looks like a different style of leather armour with a stain on it. Or we could talk about why, even though the description clearly says it has leggings, scale mail is not pictured with leggings. And if you like.. we could talk about how the picture of chainmail is clearly shown with a pauldron, gauntlets, and vambraces. While we're at it, let's talk about why the picture of a "chain shirt" apparently also has a pauldron... and apparently stitches up the stomach... and little dangly things on the bottom. I wouldn't bring the pictures into this. They're clearly done by someone who didn't even read the damn book. Hey.. why don't we also discuss how the description of scale mail says "this is a coat and leggings." Chainmail's description -doesn't say that-. Why would they specify for one and not the other? I'm not debating history with you, here. I know that a "full suit of mail" was generally considered to have either A) leggings or B) a separate skirt belted at the waist. We're not talking about that though, we're talking about what the book actually -states-. It states that scale mail has leggings. It says no such thing for chainmail. So there is no support for saying that chainmail comes with leggings. and a cuirass is a breastplate as i said. a leather cuirass would be leather armor, a linen cuirass would probably count as leather as well, though you could call padded just as easy. I would call linen the same as padded armour. And yes, a cuirass would fall under "breastplate." Unless made of overlapping scales, or leather, or linen/cloth. I never disagreed with that assertion.
Yuffie 01-12-05, 03:25 AM	This is just one of those "DM makes an informed decision." I say that the trance counts as sleep. In all of the D&D novels I've read, the elves at least like... adopt a meditative pose even if they don't lay down. And you can sleep in a meditative pose. So I'd say the penalties for sleeping in armor apply. Feel free to cut them in half though, since you're only "sleeping" for half the duration. ;)
Vahenir 01-12-05, 03:34 AM	Yuffie makes a good point. If you 'sleep' for only half of the time - should that mean you suffer only half the penalties? Or is the penalty simply standard "You slept in armour.. you get these penalties, period?"