Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Atirakis 06-11-06, 03:49 PM	Ive been looking at ways to make armor more "realistic" I saw a special on the history channel were a man was able to do full cartwheels in FULLPLATE. That doesnt sound like a +1 Max Dex to me. Also I had a real problem with medium armors being so inferior to light and heavy armor. I made some adjustments so without further ado... Light Armor AC MaxDex ACP SF% Speed DR Heavy Cloak +1 - 0 0 30 Padded +1 - 0 0 30 Leather +2 +8 0 0 30 Studded Leather +3 +6 -1 5 30 Chain Shirt +4 +4 -2 10 30 1/- Mage plate +5 +3 -3 5 30 2/- Medium Armor Hide +4 +4 -3 5 25 Scale mail +5 +3 -4 20 25 2/- Chainmail +5 +3 -3 20 25 3/- Breastplate +5 +4 -4 20 25 2/- Field plate +6 +3 -4 30 25 3/- Heavy Armor Splint mail +6 +1 -6 30 20 3/- Banded mail +6 +2 -5 30 20 3/- Half-plate +7 +2 -5 40 20 3/- Full plate +8 +2 -5 40 20 4/- Ornate plate +10 +0 -8 50 20 5/- Defender plate +15 +0 -20 90 10 5/- Shields Buckler +1 - -1 5 Wood, small +2 - -2 5 Steel, small +2 - -3 5 1/- Wood, large +3 - -3 10 2/- Steel, large +3 - -4 10 2/- Tower +4 +2 -10 50 3/- Now before anyone freaks out abotu some of these things let me explain that Defender plate is Dwarven made and is only used by dwarves on the honor guard. It is so heavy and cumbersome that they can only move 10' per round and is not available to the PCs because no dwarf would craft a suit for a non dwarf. Its just a way to keep NPC ACs up there without everything having to be magic (very low powered campaign) The DR X/- is an adaptation of the Armor as DR rule variant from UEA. The armor reduces the damage but takes that much damage itself. My items have more realistic hp (full plate has 200+ hp depending on the material used) but once it gets below 3/4 then it is only 3/4 as effective. It drops again at 1/2 and 1/4 before falling to pieces once it hits 0 hp. Well thats about it, What do you think?
dengarbountyhunter 06-11-06, 04:58 PM	READ... YOUR... SRD Armor Penalty is NOT the same thing as Maximum Dexterity Bonus to Armor Class...
Pegasos989 06-11-06, 05:05 PM	Trust me, It wasn't THE ACTUAL FULLPLATE. A knight when wearing his full aror couldn't even stand up if he fell. You drop off the horse and you then stay prone untill 2 people (your squires) come to help you so you can get back standing. Sure, the fullplate is not just THAT heavy, but it is still damned heavy and I doubt a real person (up to level 3, as normal people are) could EVER do a cartwheel in it. Then again, DnD is not realistic and 3rd level guy with maxed out tumble could propably do the cartwheel in fullplate (DC can't be THAT high normally, then we just add armor check penalty. My friend, propably 1st level commoner, can do cartwheel by taking 10, so I think that the DC isn't over 12.) So yeah: In DnD you can make cartwheel in fullplate, but I doubt that you could in the actual fullplate.
Zephyr_Blue 06-11-06, 05:07 PM	no offense, but what you've proposed does absolutely nothing take full plate for instance, you propose a -5 ACP instead of the -6 in the books, and you increase the max dex from +1 to +2 using your example, what does that do for a Tumble check, it increases your check by 2 (assuming the character has the +2 Dex modifier), whoop-de-doo, +2, which is offset by the remaining -5 penalty from the ACP if a character decided to Tumble in full plate, it definitely wouldnt be in combat, a character who is attempting to use the Tumble skill in combat would be insane to wear heavy, or even medium armor in most cases, the character would be tumbling outside of combat, allowing for the use of a Take Ten, or Take Twenty, which would allow someone to do a cart wheel IMO, the armor rules are fine the way they are in terms of AC, Max Dex, and ACP edit: no offense Peg, but dont you think it slightly inpractical of the Europeans to devise an armor that is so heavy that you cant stand up on your own if you fall over, of course you can stand up in full plate, its just a slight incumbrance imagine if you will a battle, if everyone in full plate fell over and couldnt get back up dont you think they would re-think the design of the armor, makes your statement a bit ludicrous dont you agree?
Atirakis 06-11-06, 05:41 PM	It adjusts the armors so that there is a clear progression in terms of max AC you can get out of them. It also lessens some of the ACP not because I give a crap about PCs being able to tumble in them but because I felt that some of them were ridiculously high. I dont care if you think that nobody could ever do a cartwheel in real fullplate or not because I SAW the guy put the armor on and then do it. Several times.
Vahenir 06-11-06, 07:00 PM	Trust me, It wasn't THE ACTUAL FULLPLATE. A knight when wearing his full aror couldn't even stand up if he fell. You drop off the horse and you then stay prone untill 2 people (your squires) come to help you so you can get back standing. Sure, the fullplate is not just THAT heavy, but it is still damned heavy and I doubt a real person (up to level 3, as normal people are) could EVER do a cartwheel in it. Then again, DnD is not realistic and 3rd level guy with maxed out tumble could propably do the cartwheel in fullplate (DC can't be THAT high normally, then we just add armor check penalty. My friend, propably 1st level commoner, can do cartwheel by taking 10, so I think that the DC isn't over 12.) So yeah: In DnD you can make cartwheel in fullplate, but I doubt that you could in the actual fullplate. ~sigh~ Such ridiculousness. Please, do not spread around 'information' if you have not bothered to research the subject -at all-. It is a great detriment to have people like you constantly saying this ridiculous crap. http://www.thearma.org/essays/TopMyths.htm Oh, and I can do a cartwheel in plate. And WhiteHarness (a member here) has pictures of himself doing the same. Again, don't talk about that which you have no actual knowledge. To be frank - it's rude.
WhiteHarness 06-11-06, 08:44 PM	http://josh.mediumaevum.com/cartwheel.bmp Me, doing a cartwheel in full plate.
Atirakis 06-12-06, 05:00 AM	Woot. People who know what they are talking about 3 to 1 over idiots who just randomly decide what is or isnt true.
Kobajagrande 06-12-06, 08:41 AM	Question: Does Ron Jeremy get Stud Leather armor automically? Does it combine with other armor types?
Leilond 06-12-06, 10:31 AM	You asked PEACH and I PEACH respond Totally broken. You must rewrite all the SDR and the BAB progression system for all monster if you utilize those values Low dexterity cleric gain a big boost with that ornate plate DR added to all armors boost all "armored" PC and NPC and so all monster based on natural armor become weaker than armored Barbarian gain a new +6 AC armor to use, been boosted like clerics I don't like those AT ALL, but luckly it is a matter of likes and dislikes ;)
questionc 06-12-06, 10:49 AM	Oh, and I can do a cartwheel in plate. And WhiteHarness (a member here) has pictures of himself doing the same. Again, don't talk about that which you have no actual knowledge. To be frank - it's rude. Pegasos is right. At least... he's not wrong enough to not deserve this kind of thrashing. Please try to give someone the benefit of the doubt when they say something wrong, instead of assuming they just made it up and calling them names. The old image of a knight falling down and being helpless probably spawns from jousting armour, which could weigh more than 90 lbs. It had to be enormously heavy to prevent jousting deaths. Now, I don't know too much about armour to be honest, but as Zephyr_Blue pointed out... if -6 is too big a penalty for full plate, then changing it to -5 doesn't make any meaningful difference. These changes don't make armour any more realistic, they just make some armours better than they were before. Looking at the table, it appears to basically be "+1 Armor for Med. and Heavy Plate wearers" combined with "Heavy Plate wearers are expected to have more Dex than before". Neither change really helps the game, IMO.
Atirakis 06-12-06, 12:19 PM	READ... YOUR... SRD Armor Penalty is NOT the same thing as Maximum Dexterity Bonus to Armor Class... Uhhhh what do I say to this? Are you confused or am I? LMAO I dont think anything in my post gives the impression that I think MaxDex is the same as Armor Check Penalty. Not to mention that I dont use the SRD, I have enough class and money to OWN all of the books.
Atirakis 06-12-06, 12:27 PM	You asked PEACH and I PEACH respond Totally broken. You must rewrite all the SDR and the BAB progression system for all monster if you utilize those values Low dexterity cleric gain a big boost with that ornate plate DR added to all armors boost all "armored" PC and NPC and so all monster based on natural armor become weaker than armored Barbarian gain a new +6 AC armor to use, been boosted like clerics I don't like those AT ALL, but luckly it is a matter of likes and dislikes ;) Mage plate is only available in certain lands. Field plate is only available in certain lands and then only if you are in the military. Ornate plate is a little more available than others but all it is is a way for low dex characters to still have +10 AC. It isnt unbalanced or broken. I dont need to give anything DR because its the PCs and not the monsters that take most of the hits, this system just balances out the fact that if I hit you with a sword while you where wearinf fullplate it isnt going to do much damage if it does any at all. The rest of the armors have been tweaked, however slightly, so that your max AC keeps going up the better the armor is. Light armors are clearly not as good as medium and medium are not as good as heavy. This was done so that people would stop wearing either Breast plate or Chain Shirt all the time because those were the only 2 armors worth anything.
Atirakis 06-12-06, 12:31 PM	Trust me, It wasn't THE ACTUAL FULLPLATE... ...So yeah: In DnD you can make cartwheel in fullplate, but I doubt that you could in the actual fullplate. He deserved it. To state an opinion is fine, but to tell me what I did or did not see with my own 2 eyes is ridiculous.
Rulebook 06-12-06, 03:04 PM	When i was in the army, i fell down in full pack & duffel. i still managed to get up fairly quickly without help. so you're going to tell me that getting up in 75 lbs of evenly distributed weight is harder to do than getting up with 75lbs placed squarely on your chest and back? i really dont know where you're getting your info, but even having never worn full plate, its still pretty obvious just by looking at the stuff that its easy to be maneuverable. i mean seriously, if it was uber cumbersome and impossible to move in, and weighed a ton, why would they use it? i was watching the Warriors challenge on PBS (i know, not the best source of info, but informative nonetheless) about knights. they had the guys doing pushups, jumping jacks, situps (yes sit-ups!) and running laps. the rank novices could do some of this stuff the first time they put it on. the guys whove been wearing it for a long time didnt seem to be slowed down by it AT ALL.
Tony Vargas 06-12-06, 09:05 PM	Ive been looking at ways to make armor more "realistic" I saw a special on the history channel were a man was able to do full cartwheels in FULLPLATE. That doesnt sound like a +1 Max Dex to me. Also I had a real problem with medium armors being so inferior to light and heavy armor. I made some adjustments so without further ado... From a powergaming perspective, the best DEX+Armor bonus you can get for a given DEX (without sacrificing touch AC) is an important consideration. DEX AC in 10 20 Ornate Plate 12 19 Full Plate 14 20 Full Plate 16 19 Field Plate 18 19 Breastplate 20 18 Studded 22 19 Studded 24 19 Leather 26 20 Leather 28+ 20+ Padded There are some problems with this. One is that, even though you've reworked the tables and added new armors, there are still only a handful of 'viable' armors. The other is that your best AC kinda sea-saws as your DEX increases. Both are also problems with the PH armors, of course. Also, I'm surprised you wanted to improve the lot of medium armors, but added an armor bonus +5 light armor... And, I think the low ASF% are a bad idea, but maybe I'm missing something about the campaign that calls for armored mages being more common...
Atirakis 06-12-06, 11:29 PM	Yeah I realize that there are still optimal armors for different dex levels, but I wanted to make a few armors more viable as options than there were. My campaign doesnt call for armored mages so much as the fact that light armor in my opinion shouldnt be that big of a hinderence to spell casting, especially not something like leather or padded armor. Mage plate on the other hand is a specific design for one area in my campaign world that there are War Mages that wear a very light version of plate armor. Its not even a civilization anymore, but of course some things survived, and of course I want to role play out some adventures set in the time that the War Mages ruled.
Atirakis 06-13-06, 02:37 PM	I decided to go with a variant of the armor as DR variant from UEA. I am following the same guidlines except I am not reducing the AC to compensate. I figure balance will be maintained because everyone will get the same benefit. Combat will take a little longer but I like that anyways.