Armor Penetration System (PEACH)(Somewhat long mostly tables) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Armor Penetration System (PEACH)(Somewhat long mostly tables) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Titan W
07-17-06, 09:01 AM Weapon and Armor Armor Penitration System:
This was inspired by a spur of the moment train of thought in another thread and while I was informed one already exists I decided to continue with this because It was already half finished and I was liking the way it was coming together. So have at it.

Mechanic:
On an attack the difference between the weapons armor penetration score and an armor’s penetration resistance score is subtracted from the person’s damage, any negative value counts as zero.

In addition an attacker’s strength score is added to the weapon’s penetration ability. When the Power Attack feat is used the attacker gains a +2 modifier to their penetration score. When in a rage a barbarian gains a +1 to this score and on a sneak attack the rogue gains a +6 to this score.

(Rough Equation For Values is:
(Weight)+(Attack Type Value)+ (Weapon Size Value)+(Bonus) =(Penetration Score)
Attack Type Value = Piercing +2 / Slashing +0 / Bludgeoning –2 (Weapons using 2 types simultaneously (Such as Morning Star) use the median of the two scores)
Size Value = Tiny –4 Small –2 Medium 0 Large +2 etc..
Weapons used Two-Handed have a +2 Bonus to this modifier when usually used one-handed.
Bonus = Magic Bonus or +1 if masterwork Piercing weapon
Light weapons have an additional –2 when used one-handed, this is not applied in the table.
Weapons set against a charge have +2 Penetration
Weapons used in a charge have a +2 penetration with an additional +2 for a mounted charge.
Weapons made of Adamantium gain +3 to penetration
Weapons made of Cold iron Gain +1 to Penetration
Weapons made of Mithrail count as normal weight for Penetration

Simple Melee Weapon Scores (Medium Creature):

Weapon Attack Type Penetration Score
Unarmed attack B -4
Gauntlet B -3
Dagger S -3
Dagger P -1
Dagger (Punching) P -1
Spiked Gauntlet P/B 0
Light Mace B 2
Sickle S 2
Club B 1
Mace, Heavy B 6
Morningstar B/P 7
Shortspear P 5
Longspear P 11
Quarterstaff (as 1D6/-) B 4
Quarterstaff 1D6/1D6 B/B 2/2
Spear P 10

Martial Melee Weapon Scores (Medium Creature)
[CODE]
Axe, Throwning S 0
Light Hammer B -2
Handaxe S 1
Kukri S 0
Light Pick P 3
Sap B -2
Shield (Light) B 3(W)/4(S)
Spiked Armor P (Ad-Hoc Weight) –2
Spiked Shield (Lt.) P/B 4(W)/5(S)
Short Sword P 2
Battle Axe S 6
Flail B 3
Longsword S 4
Heavy Pick P 8
Rapier P 4
Scimitar S 4
Shield (Heavy) B 8(W)/(13(S)
Spiked Shield (Hvy) B/P 9(W)/14(S)
Trident P 8
Warhammer B 3
Falichon S 8
Glaive S 12
Greataxe S 14
Greatclub B 8
Heavy Flail B 10
Greatsword S 10
Gurisarme S 14
Halberd S 14
Halberd P 16
Ransuer P 16
Scythe S 12
Scythe P 14
Lance P 14

Exotic Weapon Scores (Medium Creature)

Kama S 0
Nunchaku B -2
Sai B -3
Siangham P 1
Bastard Sword S 6
Bastard Seord (2H) S 8
Waraxe, Dwarven S 8
Whip S 2 (Probably Ad-Hoc to –4)
Axe (Orc Double) S 8/7 (Or 15 with one side)
Chain (Spiked) P 12 (Probably Ad-Hoc to +8)
Dire Flail B 5/5 (Or 10 with one side)
Gnome Hooked HammerB/P 6 (hammer)/10(Pick)
Two-Bladed Sword S 6/6 (Or 12 with one side)
Urgosh S/P 14(S)/16(P)

Ranged Weapons Gain –1 penetration for every range increment beyond their first.
Due to the difficulty in properly assigning a formula for ranged weapons I’m going off of the idea of for thrown weapons, longbows, shortbows and slings:
Ammo Weight + User’s Strength + Composite Bonus +Masterwork Bonus (+1) + Magic Bonus –Distance (For Longbow add +4 Shortbow +2)(-Size for thrown)(-2 for bludgeoning)
Corssbows have a default 10-size-2 for light

Dagger -1
Club 1
Shortspear 1
Spear 6
Dart -3.5
Javelin 2
Sling -3.5
Throwing Axe 0
Light Hammer -2
Trident 4
Longbow 4.25
Longbow (Composite) 4.25+
Shortbow 2.25
Shortbow (Composite) 2.25+
Sai -3
Bolas 0
Shuriken 3.125
Crossbow (Light) 8
Crossbow (Heavy) 10
Crossbow (hand) 6
Crossbow (Heavy Repeating) 10
Crossbow (Light Repeating) 8

And solely because a Katana thread inspired this:

Katana: S = 4 (One Handed)
Katana: S = 6 (Two Handed)

Armor Penetration Resistances
(Found By Taking: [ACBonus-maxDex+(Weight/2)]/3 round down

Padded 0
Leather 0
Studded Leather 2
Chain Shirt 3
Hide 3
Scale Mail 4
Chainmail 5
Breastplate 4
Splint Mail 7
Banded Mail 6
Half Plate 8
Full Plate 8

Modifiers For Armor:
Masterwork grants a +1
Magic Bonuses grant +=magic bonus
Mithrail armor counts as full weight for Penetration Resistance
Additional Bonuses: Half Plate and Full Plate can gain "Reinforcement" for +100 GP this adds +2 to the Penetration Resist and can be added up to 2 times. This counts as a variation on masterwork and stacks with that bonus.

Natural Armor:
For every point of natural armor the creature has +1 penetration resistance starting from -2

Feats:
Greater Penetration (General)
Prerequisites: STR: 13, Power Attack
Benefit: Gain +1 on weapon Penetration

Penetration Skill (Fighter Bonus)
Prerequisites: STR 13, Weapon Focus in chosen weapon
Benefit: Gain +2 on Penetration attempts with the chosen weapon.

Penetration and Spells;
Touch attacks ignore penetration values
Area of effect spells have (Spell level)+(casting Attribute Mod) Penetration value
Ray Spells have 5+(Spell Level)+(double Casting Attribute Mod) Penetration Value
Targeted Spells have 10+(Spell Level)+(Trippe Casting Attribute Mod) Penetration Value
Spell Penetration adds +5 to this value and Greater Spell Penetration an additional +2.

Mage Armor grants a +4 penetration value and replaces the caster's previous armor's bonus
Shield Grants no bonus
Other Armor increase Spells grant 3+spell level Penetration bonus

Once again PEACH
Pz.Az.04Maus
07-19-06, 07:03 AM Oooh... This might be interesting... Mind if I port this over to the D&D wiki?

Just Give me a private Message if you wish to have it done.

UPDATE: I just finished as of 12:35 PM, today. the link is here (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Armor_Penetration_%28DnD_Variant_Rule%29 )
MerlintheTuna
07-19-06, 05:51 PM Holy balls, that's a lot of mechanics and tables. Might I introduce you to third edition?
Pz.Az.04Maus
07-19-06, 06:37 PM Holy balls, that's a lot of mechanics and tables. Might I introduce you to third edition?

Don't show him 3e... He's on a roll... ^_^... well, show him some, at least. Not much, though
INeedNoSalt
07-19-06, 06:49 PM Why?

We already have DR. This just serves to make things more complicated.
Vahenir
07-19-06, 09:26 PM There are both logistic and balance issues with this. Logistics being the concern I'll bring up to start with.

Firstly, why does a longspear have 11, while a spear (shortspear) has only a score of 5? They're effectively the same difference. The added length of a longspear should be, logistically and realistically, considered more of a tactical feature than power feature. A longer spear is no more damaging (to armour) compared to a shorter spear than a longer rapier (say, 50 inches) is more damaging than a shorter rapier (of, say 38 inches).

Likewise, a spiked gauntlet should be no better (perhaps worse) than a normal gauntlet. There's no logical reason for that. They effectively do the exact same thing, especially to a man in any kind of armour, where it will all amount to blunt trauma anyway.

Also, a light hammer has a -2? Now, that's worse than a dagger. Gotta tell you, I could do more damage to a guy in plate with a tack-hammer than I could do with my dirk.

And why does a shield have any capability in this regard, at all? Shields are far better suited to a more 'pushing' kind of blow that's capacity to injure is drastically, drastically reduced by the presence of any kind of armour. Again, a tack-hammer is going to do more damage to the guy in plate or mail than the shield is.

Longsword has a better score than a flail? Now, it's true that the ineffectiveness of swords against armour is -drastically- overstated by some, but the fact remains that a flail is going to be pounding in a lot more damage through armour than a sword is.

I could go on, but I think you see what I'm getting at. Before trying to concern yourself with balancing this new system, which I think is an admirable effort you're putting in here, you should do more logistic considerations on your chosen stats. Also, I would suggest limiting your scores a bit more. Currently, there is far too much different in penetration ability - especially between weapons that are generally regarded as excellent in their ability to deal with armour.

Also, you'll want to keep in the back of your mind that this type of thing tends to severely limit, or even remove, the utility of certain weapons. In that light, you will almost assuredly have to revamp the very concept of Weapon Finesse to allow characters to bypass armour entirely, or else you'll find 'lighter' weapons will be useless, and a score of character concepts and accepted modes of attack will be crippled.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Titan W 07-17-06, 09:01 AM	Weapon and Armor Armor Penitration System: This was inspired by a spur of the moment train of thought in another thread and while I was informed one already exists I decided to continue with this because It was already half finished and I was liking the way it was coming together. So have at it. Mechanic: On an attack the difference between the weapons armor penetration score and an armor’s penetration resistance score is subtracted from the person’s damage, any negative value counts as zero. In addition an attacker’s strength score is added to the weapon’s penetration ability. When the Power Attack feat is used the attacker gains a +2 modifier to their penetration score. When in a rage a barbarian gains a +1 to this score and on a sneak attack the rogue gains a +6 to this score. (Rough Equation For Values is: (Weight)+(Attack Type Value)+ (Weapon Size Value)+(Bonus) =(Penetration Score) Attack Type Value = Piercing +2 / Slashing +0 / Bludgeoning –2 (Weapons using 2 types simultaneously (Such as Morning Star) use the median of the two scores) Size Value = Tiny –4 Small –2 Medium 0 Large +2 etc.. Weapons used Two-Handed have a +2 Bonus to this modifier when usually used one-handed. Bonus = Magic Bonus or +1 if masterwork Piercing weapon Light weapons have an additional –2 when used one-handed, this is not applied in the table. Weapons set against a charge have +2 Penetration Weapons used in a charge have a +2 penetration with an additional +2 for a mounted charge. Weapons made of Adamantium gain +3 to penetration Weapons made of Cold iron Gain +1 to Penetration Weapons made of Mithrail count as normal weight for Penetration Simple Melee Weapon Scores (Medium Creature): Weapon Attack Type Penetration Score Unarmed attack B -4 Gauntlet B -3 Dagger S -3 Dagger P -1 Dagger (Punching) P -1 Spiked Gauntlet P/B 0 Light Mace B 2 Sickle S 2 Club B 1 Mace, Heavy B 6 Morningstar B/P 7 Shortspear P 5 Longspear P 11 Quarterstaff (as 1D6/-) B 4 Quarterstaff 1D6/1D6 B/B 2/2 Spear P 10 Martial Melee Weapon Scores (Medium Creature) [CODE] Axe, Throwning S 0 Light Hammer B -2 Handaxe S 1 Kukri S 0 Light Pick P 3 Sap B -2 Shield (Light) B 3(W)/4(S) Spiked Armor P (Ad-Hoc Weight) –2 Spiked Shield (Lt.) P/B 4(W)/5(S) Short Sword P 2 Battle Axe S 6 Flail B 3 Longsword S 4 Heavy Pick P 8 Rapier P 4 Scimitar S 4 Shield (Heavy) B 8(W)/(13(S) Spiked Shield (Hvy) B/P 9(W)/14(S) Trident P 8 Warhammer B 3 Falichon S 8 Glaive S 12 Greataxe S 14 Greatclub B 8 Heavy Flail B 10 Greatsword S 10 Gurisarme S 14 Halberd S 14 Halberd P 16 Ransuer P 16 Scythe S 12 Scythe P 14 Lance P 14 Exotic Weapon Scores (Medium Creature) Kama S 0 Nunchaku B -2 Sai B -3 Siangham P 1 Bastard Sword S 6 Bastard Seord (2H) S 8 Waraxe, Dwarven S 8 Whip S 2 (Probably Ad-Hoc to –4) Axe (Orc Double) S 8/7 (Or 15 with one side) Chain (Spiked) P 12 (Probably Ad-Hoc to +8) Dire Flail B 5/5 (Or 10 with one side) Gnome Hooked HammerB/P 6 (hammer)/10(Pick) Two-Bladed Sword S 6/6 (Or 12 with one side) Urgosh S/P 14(S)/16(P) Ranged Weapons Gain –1 penetration for every range increment beyond their first. Due to the difficulty in properly assigning a formula for ranged weapons I’m going off of the idea of for thrown weapons, longbows, shortbows and slings: Ammo Weight + User’s Strength + Composite Bonus +Masterwork Bonus (+1) + Magic Bonus –Distance (For Longbow add +4 Shortbow +2)(-Size for thrown)(-2 for bludgeoning) Corssbows have a default 10-size-2 for light Dagger -1 Club 1 Shortspear 1 Spear 6 Dart -3.5 Javelin 2 Sling -3.5 Throwing Axe 0 Light Hammer -2 Trident 4 Longbow 4.25 Longbow (Composite) 4.25+ Shortbow 2.25 Shortbow (Composite) 2.25+ Sai -3 Bolas 0 Shuriken 3.125 Crossbow (Light) 8 Crossbow (Heavy) 10 Crossbow (hand) 6 Crossbow (Heavy Repeating) 10 Crossbow (Light Repeating) 8 And solely because a Katana thread inspired this: Katana: S = 4 (One Handed) Katana: S = 6 (Two Handed) Armor Penetration Resistances (Found By Taking: [ACBonus-maxDex+(Weight/2)]/3 round down Padded 0 Leather 0 Studded Leather 2 Chain Shirt 3 Hide 3 Scale Mail 4 Chainmail 5 Breastplate 4 Splint Mail 7 Banded Mail 6 Half Plate 8 Full Plate 8 Modifiers For Armor: Masterwork grants a +1 Magic Bonuses grant +=magic bonus Mithrail armor counts as full weight for Penetration Resistance Additional Bonuses: Half Plate and Full Plate can gain "Reinforcement" for +100 GP this adds +2 to the Penetration Resist and can be added up to 2 times. This counts as a variation on masterwork and stacks with that bonus. Natural Armor: For every point of natural armor the creature has +1 penetration resistance starting from -2 Feats: Greater Penetration (General) Prerequisites: STR: 13, Power Attack Benefit: Gain +1 on weapon Penetration Penetration Skill (Fighter Bonus) Prerequisites: STR 13, Weapon Focus in chosen weapon Benefit: Gain +2 on Penetration attempts with the chosen weapon. Penetration and Spells; Touch attacks ignore penetration values Area of effect spells have (Spell level)+(casting Attribute Mod) Penetration value Ray Spells have 5+(Spell Level)+(double Casting Attribute Mod) Penetration Value Targeted Spells have 10+(Spell Level)+(Trippe Casting Attribute Mod) Penetration Value Spell Penetration adds +5 to this value and Greater Spell Penetration an additional +2. Mage Armor grants a +4 penetration value and replaces the caster's previous armor's bonus Shield Grants no bonus Other Armor increase Spells grant 3+spell level Penetration bonus Once again PEACH
Pz.Az.04Maus 07-19-06, 07:03 AM	Oooh... This might be interesting... Mind if I port this over to the D&D wiki? Just Give me a private Message if you wish to have it done. UPDATE: I just finished as of 12:35 PM, today. the link is here (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Armor_Penetration_%28DnD_Variant_Rule%29 )
MerlintheTuna 07-19-06, 05:51 PM	Holy balls, that's a lot of mechanics and tables. Might I introduce you to third edition?
Pz.Az.04Maus 07-19-06, 06:37 PM	Holy balls, that's a lot of mechanics and tables. Might I introduce you to third edition? Don't show him 3e... He's on a roll... ^_^... well, show him some, at least. Not much, though
INeedNoSalt 07-19-06, 06:49 PM	Why? We already have DR. This just serves to make things more complicated.
Vahenir 07-19-06, 09:26 PM	There are both logistic and balance issues with this. Logistics being the concern I'll bring up to start with. Firstly, why does a longspear have 11, while a spear (shortspear) has only a score of 5? They're effectively the same difference. The added length of a longspear should be, logistically and realistically, considered more of a tactical feature than power feature. A longer spear is no more damaging (to armour) compared to a shorter spear than a longer rapier (say, 50 inches) is more damaging than a shorter rapier (of, say 38 inches). Likewise, a spiked gauntlet should be no better (perhaps worse) than a normal gauntlet. There's no logical reason for that. They effectively do the exact same thing, especially to a man in any kind of armour, where it will all amount to blunt trauma anyway. Also, a light hammer has a -2? Now, that's worse than a dagger. Gotta tell you, I could do more damage to a guy in plate with a tack-hammer than I could do with my dirk. And why does a shield have any capability in this regard, at all? Shields are far better suited to a more 'pushing' kind of blow that's capacity to injure is drastically, drastically reduced by the presence of any kind of armour. Again, a tack-hammer is going to do more damage to the guy in plate or mail than the shield is. Longsword has a better score than a flail? Now, it's true that the ineffectiveness of swords against armour is -drastically- overstated by some, but the fact remains that a flail is going to be pounding in a lot more damage through armour than a sword is. I could go on, but I think you see what I'm getting at. Before trying to concern yourself with balancing this new system, which I think is an admirable effort you're putting in here, you should do more logistic considerations on your chosen stats. Also, I would suggest limiting your scores a bit more. Currently, there is far too much different in penetration ability - especially between weapons that are generally regarded as excellent in their ability to deal with armour. Also, you'll want to keep in the back of your mind that this type of thing tends to severely limit, or even remove, the utility of certain weapons. In that light, you will almost assuredly have to revamp the very concept of Weapon Finesse to allow characters to bypass armour entirely, or else you'll find 'lighter' weapons will be useless, and a score of character concepts and accepted modes of attack will be crippled.