Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Save-vs-DM 10-11-06, 01:54 AM	Armor Revisited Okay, I’m the first to admit that armor as it stands now isn’t all that bad. There are good armors and there are bad armors. That’s just how it is in real life – some things are better than others. However, the armor in the game strikes me as odd, as it seems that cost was really the only true balancing factor. When you have light armors that are better across the board than some medium armors, you start wondering. The reasons for the imbalance of armor have been stated in many other threads, so I won’t state them again here. Basically, my buddy Giarc and I reworked some of the armors to where there are now a few more attractive options. We also ditched armor speed reductions, as that is already handled by your load carried anyway. I mean, why would the 22 Strength Orc Barbarian be slowed by wearing something like a breastplate – it just doesn’t make sense. The biggest changes were with hide armor, scale armor, banded armor, and half-plate. Most everything else was either left as is (such as the light armors) or only slightly tweaked (such as the cost of Splint). Hide was the first armor altered. We upped the AC bonus by 1 and lowered the max dex by 1, as it is described as being thick and bulky. I also added in a few little bonuses that would appeal to druids (and rangers, to some extent), giving it more of a niche than it had previously. Scale got a bump of 1 AC, making it sort of the poor man’s breastplate (at the cost of a higher arcane spell failure and more weight). Chainmail got a better armor bonus, but the max dex was reduced. This stuff is just bulky and hard to move in, but it now has a niche as the highest base ac medium armor (good for low dexterity barbarians). Banded has now got a solid role as the “skilled fighters” armor. The AC and max dex bonus stayed the same, but the armor check penalty was slightly reduced, giving it a role for some multiclass builds who want some decent protection. Half-plate was the biggest change. I reworked it so that it now has to be fitted like full plate (because it more or less would have to be), but in exchange it got a nice +2 max dex bonus and a slightly better armor check penalty. I also reduced the weight by 5 pounds. Now half-plate has a solid niche as the “slightly dexterous heavily armored fighters armor). You when you find that set of masterwork half-plate, it’s not immediately vendor food. Personally, I like how this new system works, but I’m sure there are still kinks that need to be worked out. Any feedback is greatly appreciated. Armor Cost AC MD ACP ASF Weight Light Armor Padded 5 gp +1 +8 0 5% 10 lb. Leather 10 gp +2 +6 0 10% 15 lb. Studded Leather 25 gp +3 +5 -1 15% 20 lb. Chain Shirt 100 gp +4 +4 -2 20% 25 lb. Medium Armor Hide 25 gp +4 +3 -4 20% 30 lb. Scale Mail 75 gp +5 +3 -4 30% 35 lb. Chainmail 150 gp +6 +1 -6 35% 40 lb. Breastplate 200 gp +5 +3 -4 25% 30 lb. Heavy Armor Splint Mail 125 gp +6 +0 -6 40% 40 lb. Banded Mail 300 gp +6 +1 -5 35% 35 lb. Half-plate 600 gp +7 +2 -6 35% 45 lb. Full Plate 1,500 gp +8 +1 -6 40% 50 lb. Armor Qualities Armor and shields have all the special qualities listed in the Player’s Handbook, except as noted below. Speed: Armor itself does not slow the wearer down. Instead, check your carrying capacity (see page 161 of the Player’s Handbook) to determine if the load you are carrying is enough to reduce your speed. Stronger carries may be able to wear medium or even heavy without being slowed, while weak character might even be slowed by light armor. Armor Descriptions Armor and shield descriptions are the same as listed in the Player’s Handbook, except as noted below. Banded Mail: This armor is made of overlapping strips of metal sewn to a backing of leather and chainmail. The strips cover vulnerable areas, while the chain and leather protect the joints and provide freedom of movement. Straps and buckles distribute the weight evenly and tend to hamper movement much less than other heavy armors. This set includes gauntlets. Half-Plate: This armor is a combination of chainmail with metal plates (breastplate, epaulettes, elbow guards, gauntlets, tasses, and greaves) covering vital areas. Buckles and straps distribute the weight over the body, so full plate hampers movement less than other armors. Unlike full plate, half-plate allows for a greater range of motion, making it ideal for more skilled or dexterous fighters. Each suit of half-plate must be individually fitted to its owner by a master armorsmith, although a captured suit can be resized to fit a new owner at a cost of 100 to 400 (2d4x50) gold pieces. Hide: This armor is prepared from multiple layers of leather and animal hides, which have been treated with natural materials to lend strength and stiffness. Because hide armor is crafted from materials commonly found in a forest setting, the armor check penalty from hide armor does not affect Hide checks made in forested areas. In addition, the latent scents from hide armor confer a +2 circumstance bonus on Wild Empathy checks when dealing with animals (but not magical beasts). Scale Mail: This armor consists of a coat and leggings (and perhaps a separate skirt) of leather covered with overlapping pieces of metal, much like the scales of a fish. A suit of studded leather protects other vulnerable areas without increasing the stiffness of the armor. Splint Mail: This armor is made of narrow vertical strips of metal riveted to a backing of leather that is worn over clothing padding, while flexible chainmail protects the joints. This armor is usually cheaply made for large armors, thus masterwork versions are quite rare. This set includes gauntlets.
Xeviat-DM 10-11-06, 03:02 AM	Interesting. Having worn maille, both in shirt and suit form, I'll say that it isn't that restricting. I don't know what my Dex score is, but I didn't feel weighted down anymore than I would have when wearing a backpack of the same weight (heck, the weight distribution made it easier to carry). My point is I don't think it should be as cumbersom (max dex) as plate; plate doesn't flex, while chain does. Plate only allows you to move where the plate was designed to let you move (and full plate is half-plate with more manueverability; the ACs are the same but Full plate's max dex is higher and ACP is lower). Currently, the largest flaws with Medium and Heavy armors is that not all armors have ACs and Max Dex's that add up to +8. The armors that do are the ones that you see used more often. The other flaw is that Medium and Heavy armors do not grant you enough benefit for the penalties you suffer (armor check penalties, and speed, and the opportunity cost of having to take a class which offers proficiency, or taking a feat). Your change to speed is a good one, and I really like it. One thing I would do is try to make every armor's AC and Max Dex add up to +8, and then improve the AC granted by medum and heavy armor. This will make medium and heavy armor better. You can get a large spread by doing this: AC Max Dex Light +1 +7 +2 +6 +3 +5 +4 +4 Medium +4 +5 +5 +4 +6 +3 +7 +2 Heavy +7 +3 +8 +2 +9 +1 +10 +0 This creates a nice spread of ACs and Max Dex's, and gives value to Medium and Heavy Armor. Yes, it will be a blatent power up to some characters, but the AC could be converted to DR to make things more varied: AC Max Dex DR Light +1 +7 - +2 +6 - +3 +5 - +4 +4 - Medium +3 +5 1/- +4 +4 1/- +5 +3 1/- +6 +2 1/- Heavy +5 +3 2/- +6 +2 2/- +7 +1 2/- +8 +0 2/- This doesn't quite make things as varied as I'd want, but it seems to work in a pinch. -------------------- My primary complaint about current armors is that they do not have the same variety and customability as weapons have. Weapons allow you to choose from light, one-handed, and two-handed (similar to light, medium, and heavy armors), but they also let you choose between simple, martial, and exotic (also similar to light, medium, and heavy). In addition to this, you can also choose your damage type, and within martial weapons, decide whether you want high damage with frequent crits (1d8 19-20/x2 longsword), high damage with strong crits (1d8 20/x3 battle axe), low damage with many crits (1d6 18-20/x2 scimitar), or low damage with devistating crits (1d6 20/x4 heavy pick), in addition to tactical weapons (1d8 20/x2 flail, with +2 disarm and tripping capability). Armor lacks this level of asthetic and personal appeal. I don't think I can hope to create something as varried as the weapon system, but more options must be available (aside from simply choose the best AC for your Dex score).
Save-vs-DM 10-11-06, 09:23 AM	Well, this is really a good springboard for all of us here to start really sitting down and hammering out the armor system once and for all. If enough of us put our heads together, we can really come up with something that works well and offers a bit of flavor. I suppose the first questing is: Are we, as a community, looking for all armors to be roughly "equal but different", or is it okay to have some statistically inferior armors? Expanding on your table, you could end up with values something like this: AC Max Dex Armor Check Weight Light +1 +7 0 5 lb. +2 +6 0 10 lb. +3 +5 -1 15 lb. +4 +4 -1 20 lb. Medium +4 +5 -3 30 lb. +5 +4 -4 35 lb. +6 +3 -5 40 lb. +7 +2 -5 40 lb. Heavy +7 +3 -6 45 lb. +8 +2 -7 45 lb. +9 +1 -8 50 lb. +10 +0 -8 55 lb. Which makes a nice set of armor, but it lacks a bit more realism than some people might stomach. The other problem is that it totally nullifies the exotic armors found in Races of Stone. However, I think that armor in general doesn't scale nearly as well as attack bonuses do. By around level 6 or 7 you have creatures that can easily hit armor classes in the high teens, but characters with armor classes in the low twenties (in most standard games). Personally, I'd like to really just remove all the "exotic armors" and use some of their abilities in the standard armors. You could simply just ramp up the standard armors a little bit, give them some decent special abilities, and then have a reworked system for armor that makes medium armor clearly better than light armor, and heavy armor clearly better than medium armor. The other thing that weapons have going for them is they have a few extra little goodies. It would be nice if some of these armors also had a few little "goodies" that might give a bit more flavor to some armors. The trouble is, I'm not sure what you could really give some of the armors. I do have a few ideas, though. * A bonus to resist bull rush or trip attempts (stable armor?) * A bonus to saves versus certain things (like padded armor could give you a +2 on saves versus sonic effects, as it "cushions" the sound. * Negating the armor check penalty on certain checks. One thing is for certain - if we really want armor to be more of an aesthetic choice instead of the standard: Masterwork Studded Leather, Chain Shirt, Breastplate, or Full Plate options we have now, we've got our work cut out for us. I'm eager to hear what other people think on this issue. Cheers, Save vs DM
Tony Vargas 10-11-06, 01:58 PM	Scale got a bump of 1 AC, making it sort of the poor man’s breastplate (at the cost of a higher arcane spell failure and more weight).For a medium armor, ASF really doesn't matter much. Similarly, a little more weight for high-STR characters is nearly meaningless. Currently, Scale is a '1st-level armor' - it's cheap enough for first level characters to afford, and compared to the other similarly-cheap armors (hide and light armors), offers pretty decent protection. Chainmail got a better armor bonus, but the max dex was reduced.That seems like a little much. For one thing, it still adds to +7, making it somewhat inferior. For another, that's the same max dex and ACP as full plate - for a 'medium' armor. Banded has now got a solid role as the “skilled fighters” armor.Except that you have it offering the same protection as chain, for more money, and all you get is 1 less ACP and 5 less lbs. That doesn't seem like it'd apeal to 'skilled fighters,' not when there's breastplates that are cheaper, lighter, lower ACP, and offer better overall protection if your DEX is good. I also reduced the weight by 5 pounds. Now half-plate has a solid niche as the “slightly dexterous heavily armored fighters armor). Not sure it should be, though, half-plate is supposed to be a heavier, bulkier more 'primitive' alternative to articulated full plate... One thing I would do is try to make every armor's AC and Max Dex add up to +8, and then improve the AC granted by medum and heavy armor. This will make medium and heavy armor better. You can get a large spread by doing this: I see two problems with that idea. One is that you have DEX bonuses going up when you cross from light to medium, and medium to heavy, which is a little counterintiuitive. The other is that, while all the armors are ideal for come character with some DEX, there are no 'compromise' armors that may be called for - like some cheaper armor for starting characters, or Hide for druids.
Xeviat-DM 10-12-06, 07:35 PM	I consider Hide to be the cheep medium, and Splint to be the cheep heavy. Similarly, Hide is "heavy leather", and splint is basically "heavy chain" (if one considers, like I do, that scale is reinforced chain, just like studded leather is reinforced leather). So when you compare my leather (+2 AC, +6 Max Dex) to my hide (+4 AC, +5 Max Dex), we're still reducing things. Likewise my chain (+5 AC, +4 Max Dex) and my splint (+7 AC, +3 Max Dex). Perhaps these aren't enough of a reduction though (originally I built the table by only having the max dex's overlap once, but that ended up making a +11 AC, -1 Max Dex armor, which I didn't like). If someone wants to make "cheep" armor, then I could see it as some sort of negative enhancer. ---------- If we are all interested in seriously reworking the armor system, to remove inferior armors that PCs never use, then I'd love to put my pocket change into it. As a springboard, this is the way I think armors should be created: 3 materials: leather, chain, plate. Leather is light, chain is medium, plate is heavy. This plate is "roman plate", where interlocking plates are layered over each other. 2 forms: shirt and suit. A shirt is one type lighter than the suit. Several "enhancements": reinforced (leather becomes studded leather, chain becomes scale, plate becomes solid plate), heavy (leather becomes hide, chain becomes splint), and possibly others. This allows the creation of several armors right off the bat: Light Leather Shirt Leather Suit Studded Leather Suit Chain Shirt Scale Shirt Medium Hide Chain Suit Scale Suit Plate "Shirt" (breastplate) Full Plate "Shirt" Heavy Splint Plate Suit Full-Plate Suit But again, even if all of the armors are balanced, variety still isn't achieved. People will still go for which ever armor suits their Dex score. Perhaps the Max Dex property is one of the problems. Armor restricts movement, it doesn't restrict movement "to a point". If you are coordinated, chain will restrict you a bit; if you're uncoordinated, I'm pretty sure chain will still restrict you. Armor Check Penalties apply across the board, so perhaps Max Dex could be replaced with a possible dex reduction; heavy armor keeps you from dodging as much, but offers you more protection. With that change, and the speed reduction change (basing it off of carrying capacity), we might be able to come by something workable. I still want to strive for asthetics and variety, if at all possible; I feel there should be a tangable reason, other than restrictions, to wear each type (though, like light weapons (which require weapon finesse to gain the full benefit), your common warrior won't wear light armor). Just some ideas. Lets see what grows. PS: There is no such thing as a compromise weapon; the only compromise characters make is not buying a MW weapon right off the bat. Likewise, armor prices should probably be reduced, leaving the suggested "enhancements" and masterworking (which could concievably reduce the dex reduction) as the "good" armors. A 1st level heavy fighter might buy a cheep suit of plate, but a higher level one will get masterwork solid plate.