Armor Spikes and AOO [Archive] - Wizards Community

Armor Spikes and AOO [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
curan69
02-07-06, 09:52 AM I have a few questions about Armor spikes.

What kind of Armor can spikes be put on? ( please reference any rules)

The way i read it a fighter could carry a sword in one hand, a shield in the other and still make an offhand attack using armor spikes. You would get the benifit of the shield and could still make two attacks

Is this how anyone else reads this?

Last question.

If you are using a bow but have armor spikes do you still threaten?

It reads that way to me, but I'm curious to see how others read it.
chitzk0i
02-07-06, 10:05 AM RAW, there are no restrictions as to what kind of armor to which you can add spikes. However, your DM may impose some restirctions as he or she sees fit.

The answers to your other two questions are 'yes'. Someone holding a bow and wearing armor spikes still threatens their natural reach. Someone with a weapon, shield, and armor spikes could make two attacks.
draconic_swine
02-07-06, 10:06 AM There are no restrictions, RAW, as to which armours you can put armour spikes onto. From the SRD:

You can have spikes added to your armor, which allow you to deal extra piercing damage (see Table: Weapons) on a successful grapple attack. The spikes count as a martial weapon. If you are not proficient with them, you take a -4 penalty on grapple checks when you try to use them. You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case. (You can’t also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and vice versa.)

Nothing in it to even imply that you can't place them on any armours.

Since the above text also says that you can make regular melee attacks with them, and they don't provoke an AoO, I'd say that yes, you do threaten with them if you're wielding a bow.

Finally, I belive that it is generally agreed that you can indeed TWF with a one-handed weapon and armour spikes while wielding a shield, just like you can fight with a two-handed weapon plus armour spikes. I definitely read it that way, at least.
Romanus_Mortus
02-07-06, 10:08 AM *removes foot from mouth*

carry on, nothing was ever here...
jaelis
02-07-06, 10:48 AM Since you're asking about AoO's, however, I don't think there's any RAW way to get rid of the -4 off-hand weapon penalty if you make an AoO with your armor spikes.
curan69
02-07-06, 12:51 PM If it said you could only make an off-hand attack with them i would agree, but it says you can make a regular melee attack.

So if I pull out a potion (move action) and drink it ( standard action) and then someone provokes an AOO I dont think their would be any penalty to use Armor spikes for the AOO.

Just as if i chose to move 30 ft and attack with my armor spikes as a regular melee attack there would be no penalty.

Of course i agree if I've attacked with my Sword and then want to use my armor spikes i suffer the penalties for TWF.

Anyway thats how i read it
AmadeusMaxwell
02-07-06, 01:16 PM hehehe, from my other post regarding Flaming gloves these spikes gave me an idea.

Do Bracers or Armor actually count as armor? The name implies so, and if this is the case can you buy them with added armor spikes? Also since the armor spike text reads:An enhancement bonus to a suit of armor does not improve the spikes’ effectiveness, but the spikes can be made into magic weapons in their own right does this mean I can add a flaming to the spikes themselves making Flaming Bracers of Armored spikes? If so what would the cost be? the Braers by themselves cost 1000, the spikes another 50, making the spikes masterwork to allow for magical effects 300, and the weapon bonus 2000 = 3350? The only flaw in my thinking that I see is that possibly the cost being more since their are 2 magic effects on it but really one is just an item...I dunno, what do you guys think? I know it would still only apply to grappling damage and I'd still take the -4 but since I have Improved grappling it evens out.
draconic_swine
02-07-06, 04:01 PM Don't quote me on this, but I thought I read somewhere (the FAQ, or Rules of the Game, or something similar but official) that Bracers of Armour don't actually count as armour, and as such you can't enchant them, or add armour spikes to them in your case. Not completely sure on that, though.

By the way, your pricing is correct--the armour spikes count as a separate weapon from the armour they are placed on when it comes to enchanting and pricing, so +1 flaming armour spikes cost the same no matter if they are place on +2 chain mail or +5 full plate of heavy fortitude.
malignor
02-07-06, 05:10 PM ... Hence my dirty trick:

+5 breastplate, with armor spikes +5 of defending... total AC bonus: 5 (armor) + 5 (armor enhancement) + 0-5 (defending; stacks with all non-defending-enhancement bonuses).

With that armor alone you can have a +15 bonus to AC, and always be armed with a light magical weapon.

Default: Full defense (+15 AC)
where X can be any number > 0...
Round 2X-1: turn on full offense (free action) and attack w/ +5 armor spikes. AC bonus from armor is +10 at least until your turn next round.
Round 2X: attack w/ +5 armor spikes, then turn on full defense. AC bonus from armor is +15 at least until your turn next round.

Nice trick.
draconic_swine
02-07-06, 06:33 PM Not bad, malignor, not bad at all ;) Expensive as heck, but nice all the same. The only thing is, if I was DMing a campaign and a player tried to pull this one on me, I'd rule that activating the Defending enchantment is a swift action ...
mvincent
02-07-06, 07:42 PM I'd rule that activating the Defending enchantment is a swift action ...The 3.0 FAQ was even more strict:
"Using a weapon of defending works just like the Expertise
feat. (You have to use an attack or full attack action.) You can’t
use the weapon like a shield; if you hold the weapon in your off
hand and claim an Armor Class bonus for it, you take all the
penalties for fighting with two weapons, even if you don’t
actually attack with the weapon. "

I'm unsure if anything in 3.5 actually rescinds this (i.e. the associated rules appear not to have changed, making this a valid clarification).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
curan69 02-07-06, 09:52 AM	I have a few questions about Armor spikes. What kind of Armor can spikes be put on? ( please reference any rules) The way i read it a fighter could carry a sword in one hand, a shield in the other and still make an offhand attack using armor spikes. You would get the benifit of the shield and could still make two attacks Is this how anyone else reads this? Last question. If you are using a bow but have armor spikes do you still threaten? It reads that way to me, but I'm curious to see how others read it.
chitzk0i 02-07-06, 10:05 AM	RAW, there are no restrictions as to what kind of armor to which you can add spikes. However, your DM may impose some restirctions as he or she sees fit. The answers to your other two questions are 'yes'. Someone holding a bow and wearing armor spikes still threatens their natural reach. Someone with a weapon, shield, and armor spikes could make two attacks.
draconic_swine 02-07-06, 10:06 AM	There are no restrictions, RAW, as to which armours you can put armour spikes onto. From the SRD: You can have spikes added to your armor, which allow you to deal extra piercing damage (see Table: Weapons) on a successful grapple attack. The spikes count as a martial weapon. If you are not proficient with them, you take a -4 penalty on grapple checks when you try to use them. You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case. (You can’t also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and vice versa.) Nothing in it to even imply that you can't place them on any armours. Since the above text also says that you can make regular melee attacks with them, and they don't provoke an AoO, I'd say that yes, you do threaten with them if you're wielding a bow. Finally, I belive that it is generally agreed that you can indeed TWF with a one-handed weapon and armour spikes while wielding a shield, just like you can fight with a two-handed weapon plus armour spikes. I definitely read it that way, at least.
Romanus_Mortus 02-07-06, 10:08 AM	removes foot from mouth carry on, nothing was ever here...
jaelis 02-07-06, 10:48 AM	Since you're asking about AoO's, however, I don't think there's any RAW way to get rid of the -4 off-hand weapon penalty if you make an AoO with your armor spikes.
curan69 02-07-06, 12:51 PM	If it said you could only make an off-hand attack with them i would agree, but it says you can make a regular melee attack. So if I pull out a potion (move action) and drink it ( standard action) and then someone provokes an AOO I dont think their would be any penalty to use Armor spikes for the AOO. Just as if i chose to move 30 ft and attack with my armor spikes as a regular melee attack there would be no penalty. Of course i agree if I've attacked with my Sword and then want to use my armor spikes i suffer the penalties for TWF. Anyway thats how i read it
AmadeusMaxwell 02-07-06, 01:16 PM	hehehe, from my other post regarding Flaming gloves these spikes gave me an idea. Do Bracers or Armor actually count as armor? The name implies so, and if this is the case can you buy them with added armor spikes? Also since the armor spike text reads:An enhancement bonus to a suit of armor does not improve the spikes’ effectiveness, but the spikes can be made into magic weapons in their own right does this mean I can add a flaming to the spikes themselves making Flaming Bracers of Armored spikes? If so what would the cost be? the Braers by themselves cost 1000, the spikes another 50, making the spikes masterwork to allow for magical effects 300, and the weapon bonus 2000 = 3350? The only flaw in my thinking that I see is that possibly the cost being more since their are 2 magic effects on it but really one is just an item...I dunno, what do you guys think? I know it would still only apply to grappling damage and I'd still take the -4 but since I have Improved grappling it evens out.
draconic_swine 02-07-06, 04:01 PM	Don't quote me on this, but I thought I read somewhere (the FAQ, or Rules of the Game, or something similar but official) that Bracers of Armour don't actually count as armour, and as such you can't enchant them, or add armour spikes to them in your case. Not completely sure on that, though. By the way, your pricing is correct--the armour spikes count as a separate weapon from the armour they are placed on when it comes to enchanting and pricing, so +1 flaming armour spikes cost the same no matter if they are place on +2 chain mail or +5 full plate of heavy fortitude.
malignor 02-07-06, 05:10 PM	... Hence my dirty trick: +5 breastplate, with armor spikes +5 of defending... total AC bonus: 5 (armor) + 5 (armor enhancement) + 0-5 (defending; stacks with all non-defending-enhancement bonuses). With that armor alone you can have a +15 bonus to AC, and always be armed with a light magical weapon. Default: Full defense (+15 AC) where X can be any number > 0... Round 2X-1: turn on full offense (free action) and attack w/ +5 armor spikes. AC bonus from armor is +10 at least until your turn next round. Round 2X: attack w/ +5 armor spikes, then turn on full defense. AC bonus from armor is +15 at least until your turn next round. Nice trick.
draconic_swine 02-07-06, 06:33 PM	Not bad, malignor, not bad at all ;) Expensive as heck, but nice all the same. The only thing is, if I was DMing a campaign and a player tried to pull this one on me, I'd rule that activating the Defending enchantment is a swift action ...
mvincent 02-07-06, 07:42 PM	I'd rule that activating the Defending enchantment is a swift action ...The 3.0 FAQ was even more strict: "Using a weapon of defending works just like the Expertise feat. (You have to use an attack or full attack action.) You can’t use the weapon like a shield; if you hold the weapon in your off hand and claim an Armor Class bonus for it, you take all the penalties for fighting with two weapons, even if you don’t actually attack with the weapon. " I'm unsure if anything in 3.5 actually rescinds this (i.e. the associated rules appear not to have changed, making this a valid clarification).