Armor Spikes and grappling... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Armor Spikes and grappling... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Hashy
03-08-06, 03:55 PM After reading up on the current grappling debates, I have still yet to understand how armor spikes really work. I am led to believe that if I had a BAB of +6/+1, I would be able to make two grapple attempts to damage my opponent. Normally without the spikes I would deal unarmed damage twice, yes? Now with the spikes, would I also deal spike damage twice? And if I were wearing flaming spiked gauntlets or something, and also enchanted the spikes to be flaming or the whatnot, would I deal flaming damage four times if I were to succeed on both grappling attempts?
draconic_swine
03-08-06, 04:51 PM If you're grappling (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#ifYoureGrappling), you're able to perform one of several actions. If your base attack bonus is high enough, you can perform a different action for each attack you have, so in your example, a character with a BAB of +6/+1 could make two attacks with his spiked armour. Each would have its own attack and damage rolls.

If you didn't have spiked armour on, you could make two unarmed attacks if you so chose, again with each attack getting its own attack and damage rolls. The same thing would apply with a light weapon (including the spiked gauntlets you also mention).

You cannot attack with two weapons in a grapple, so you couldn't attack with both spiked gauntlets and spiked armour. You'd have to choose one over the other.

With a flaming weapon, you'd deal the fire damage with each successful hit.
Tony Vargas
03-08-06, 05:24 PM Armor Spikes can replace your unarmed damage when grappling. So, in a grapple, you could make a grapple check to inflict damage, inflicting either your unarmed strike damage, or the armor spike damage, or, you could make an attack roll at -4 to attack with a light weapon (which includes IUS and Armor Spikes).

If your grapple check is good compared to your opponent, but his AC is high, it's better to do the grapple check, if you're being grappled and can't escape, it's unlikely you can do damage with a grapple check, so that attack roll is the better choice.
kjenks
03-08-06, 05:33 PM There are three schools of thought about what grapple damage you inflict while wearing armor spikes. I'll present them to you and let you make your own decision.

These are all assuming you're inflicting grapple damage, like after a successful step 3 or with a "Damage Your Opponent" option. Normally, without armor spikes, this would inflict your unarmed strike damage, usually 1d3+Str nonlethal. Your BAB +6 guy could attempt this twice per round.

Before I tell you the three schools of though, I should mention that the armor-spike-damage-while-grappling rules changed subtly from 3e to 3.5e. The 3.5e rules added the word "extra" to the amount of damage you'd inflict with the armor spikes. (If you're really interested, you should look up the wording in both the 3e SRD and the 3.5e SRD and compare.)

SRD
===
Armor Spikes: You can have spikes added to your armor, which allow you to deal extra piercing damage (see Table: Weapons) on a successful grapple attack. The spikes count as a martial weapon. If you are not proficient with them, you take a –4 penalty on grapple checks when you try to use them. You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case. (You can’t also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and vice versa.)

An enhancement bonus to a suit of armor does not improve the spikes’ effectiveness, but the spikes can be made into magic weapons in their own right.
===

School 1. The PH/SRD says you "deal extra piercing damage" with armor spikes. Armor spikes normally inflict 1d6+Str piercing damage. So that "extra piercing damage" would be your regular 1d3+Str nonlethal and an extra 1d6+Str piercing from the armor spikes. Notice that you get your Str bonus twice. Since the piercing damage is "extra damage dice" it's not doubled on a critical hit (whatever THAT means for a grapple attack) or Spirited Charge or whatever.

School 2. An entry from the Main 3.5e FAQ might be interpreted as saying that you can either inflict your normal unarmed strike damage (usually 1d3+Str nonlethal) OR your armor spike damage (usually 1d6+Str piercing) but not both. This FAQ entry was written by Skip Williams, and it makes no reference to the word "extra" in the 3.5e armor spike rules.

School 3. That very same Main 3.5e FAQ entry might be interpreted as saying that in addition to the "unarmed + extra piercing" option described in the PH (School 1), you also have an additional option: You can choose to inflict (3a) unarmed strike damage alone or (3b) piercing damage alone or (3c) both.

Here's a relavant part of that FAQ entry:
===
When grappling, you can damage your foe with your spikes
by making a regular grapple check (opposed by your foe’s
check). If you succeed, you deal piercing damage to your foe
(see Table 7–5 in the Player’s Handbook) rather than the
unarmed strike damage you’d normally deal when damaging
your foe with a grapple check.
===

So, is that (School 2) an attempt to change the PH rules by denying you the "extra" damage, per the 3.5e armor spike description quoted above, or (School 3) an attempt to give you two other options while grappling (3a,3b) so you can choose to not use your armor spikes if you don't want to kill the guy or choose not to use your unarmed strike damage if you are close to killing the guy?

Or is it just that Skip didn't read the 3.5e rules carefully and didn't notice that the word "extra" had slipped in there between 3e and 3.5e?

We can't know for sure.

I'm in School 3, but I can't fault you if you're in School 1 or School 2, because both appear to be valid interpretations of the vague rules. There's even School 1a, which says that you only get your Str bonus once, not twice.

As to your "Flaming armor spikes" question, I think it's pretty clear that you'd get your usual enhancement bonus and any extra flaming/frost/sonic/holy damage dice whenever you'd inflict that piercing damage. The hard part is figuring out when you'd inflict that piercing damage.
Tony Vargas
03-08-06, 08:43 PM Yeah, with all the holes in the rules on armor spikes they're a sort of swirling vortex of abuse drawing munchkins towards them like the event horizon of a black hole.

:rant: /Some/ of the thing's you're purportedly able to do with Armor Spikes (some of these are endorsed by the FAQ and other official sources, some repudiated by them, but all are, IMHO, really bad ideas):

TWF with a two-handed weapon, like a great sword in addition to the armor spikes.
Threaten with them while using a two-handed missle weapon.
TWF with them while gaining the AC bonus from a shield (and wielding a two-handed weapon if the sheild is a buckler with IBU).
Inflict double your STR bonus while grappling.
Put the freak'n things on a chain shirt, padded armor, or normal clothes, for that matter.
TWF with armor spikes, and, well armor spikes - pay magic weapon costs once, gain the benefits twice.
'Wield' defending spikes while also 'wielding' two other weapons, oh, and a pair of spiked guantlets, etc...

Armor Spikes are a veritable perfect storm of rules abuse.

Spiked Chains aren't any better.

In fact, if the word 'spike' is anywhere in the description of something, chances are it's broke. Who knows, maybe some 3E developer has a spike fetish? :ahem:

:noway: I say ban 'em all. The only spikes in D&D should be the iron spikes we oldsters used to use to hold doors closed. Yeah.
Hashy
03-09-06, 08:50 AM Many thanks to your replies, especially yours kjenks. Though they didn't entirely clear up the situation, they will help me in my rulings for/against them~

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hashy 03-08-06, 03:55 PM	After reading up on the current grappling debates, I have still yet to understand how armor spikes really work. I am led to believe that if I had a BAB of +6/+1, I would be able to make two grapple attempts to damage my opponent. Normally without the spikes I would deal unarmed damage twice, yes? Now with the spikes, would I also deal spike damage twice? And if I were wearing flaming spiked gauntlets or something, and also enchanted the spikes to be flaming or the whatnot, would I deal flaming damage four times if I were to succeed on both grappling attempts?
draconic_swine 03-08-06, 04:51 PM	If you're grappling (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#ifYoureGrappling), you're able to perform one of several actions. If your base attack bonus is high enough, you can perform a different action for each attack you have, so in your example, a character with a BAB of +6/+1 could make two attacks with his spiked armour. Each would have its own attack and damage rolls. If you didn't have spiked armour on, you could make two unarmed attacks if you so chose, again with each attack getting its own attack and damage rolls. The same thing would apply with a light weapon (including the spiked gauntlets you also mention). You cannot attack with two weapons in a grapple, so you couldn't attack with both spiked gauntlets and spiked armour. You'd have to choose one over the other. With a flaming weapon, you'd deal the fire damage with each successful hit.
Tony Vargas 03-08-06, 05:24 PM	Armor Spikes can replace your unarmed damage when grappling. So, in a grapple, you could make a grapple check to inflict damage, inflicting either your unarmed strike damage, or the armor spike damage, or, you could make an attack roll at -4 to attack with a light weapon (which includes IUS and Armor Spikes). If your grapple check is good compared to your opponent, but his AC is high, it's better to do the grapple check, if you're being grappled and can't escape, it's unlikely you can do damage with a grapple check, so that attack roll is the better choice.
kjenks 03-08-06, 05:33 PM	There are three schools of thought about what grapple damage you inflict while wearing armor spikes. I'll present them to you and let you make your own decision. These are all assuming you're inflicting grapple damage, like after a successful step 3 or with a "Damage Your Opponent" option. Normally, without armor spikes, this would inflict your unarmed strike damage, usually 1d3+Str nonlethal. Your BAB +6 guy could attempt this twice per round. Before I tell you the three schools of though, I should mention that the armor-spike-damage-while-grappling rules changed subtly from 3e to 3.5e. The 3.5e rules added the word "extra" to the amount of damage you'd inflict with the armor spikes. (If you're really interested, you should look up the wording in both the 3e SRD and the 3.5e SRD and compare.) SRD === Armor Spikes: You can have spikes added to your armor, which allow you to deal extra piercing damage (see Table: Weapons) on a successful grapple attack. The spikes count as a martial weapon. If you are not proficient with them, you take a –4 penalty on grapple checks when you try to use them. You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case. (You can’t also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and vice versa.) An enhancement bonus to a suit of armor does not improve the spikes’ effectiveness, but the spikes can be made into magic weapons in their own right. === School 1. The PH/SRD says you "deal extra piercing damage" with armor spikes. Armor spikes normally inflict 1d6+Str piercing damage. So that "extra piercing damage" would be your regular 1d3+Str nonlethal and an extra 1d6+Str piercing from the armor spikes. Notice that you get your Str bonus twice. Since the piercing damage is "extra damage dice" it's not doubled on a critical hit (whatever THAT means for a grapple attack) or Spirited Charge or whatever. School 2. An entry from the Main 3.5e FAQ might be interpreted as saying that you can either inflict your normal unarmed strike damage (usually 1d3+Str nonlethal) OR your armor spike damage (usually 1d6+Str piercing) but not both. This FAQ entry was written by Skip Williams, and it makes no reference to the word "extra" in the 3.5e armor spike rules. School 3. That very same Main 3.5e FAQ entry might be interpreted as saying that in addition to the "unarmed + extra piercing" option described in the PH (School 1), you also have an additional option: You can choose to inflict (3a) unarmed strike damage alone or (3b) piercing damage alone or (3c) both. Here's a relavant part of that FAQ entry: === When grappling, you can damage your foe with your spikes by making a regular grapple check (opposed by your foe’s check). If you succeed, you deal piercing damage to your foe (see Table 7–5 in the Player’s Handbook) rather than the unarmed strike damage you’d normally deal when damaging your foe with a grapple check. === So, is that (School 2) an attempt to change the PH rules by denying you the "extra" damage, per the 3.5e armor spike description quoted above, or (School 3) an attempt to give you two other options while grappling (3a,3b) so you can choose to not use your armor spikes if you don't want to kill the guy or choose not to use your unarmed strike damage if you are close to killing the guy? Or is it just that Skip didn't read the 3.5e rules carefully and didn't notice that the word "extra" had slipped in there between 3e and 3.5e? We can't know for sure. I'm in School 3, but I can't fault you if you're in School 1 or School 2, because both appear to be valid interpretations of the vague rules. There's even School 1a, which says that you only get your Str bonus once, not twice. As to your "Flaming armor spikes" question, I think it's pretty clear that you'd get your usual enhancement bonus and any extra flaming/frost/sonic/holy damage dice whenever you'd inflict that piercing damage. The hard part is figuring out when you'd inflict that piercing damage.
Tony Vargas 03-08-06, 08:43 PM	Yeah, with all the holes in the rules on armor spikes they're a sort of swirling vortex of abuse drawing munchkins towards them like the event horizon of a black hole. :rant: /Some/ of the thing's you're purportedly able to do with Armor Spikes (some of these are endorsed by the FAQ and other official sources, some repudiated by them, but all are, IMHO, really bad ideas): TWF with a two-handed weapon, like a great sword in addition to the armor spikes. Threaten with them while using a two-handed missle weapon. TWF with them while gaining the AC bonus from a shield (and wielding a two-handed weapon if the sheild is a buckler with IBU). Inflict double your STR bonus while grappling. Put the freak'n things on a chain shirt, padded armor, or normal clothes, for that matter. TWF with armor spikes, and, well armor spikes - pay magic weapon costs once, gain the benefits twice. 'Wield' defending spikes while also 'wielding' two other weapons, oh, and a pair of spiked guantlets, etc... Armor Spikes are a veritable perfect storm of rules abuse. Spiked Chains aren't any better. In fact, if the word 'spike' is anywhere in the description of something, chances are it's broke. Who knows, maybe some 3E developer has a spike fetish? :ahem: :noway: I say ban 'em all. The only spikes in D&D should be the iron spikes we oldsters used to use to hold doors closed. Yeah.
Hashy 03-09-06, 08:50 AM	Many thanks to your replies, especially yours kjenks. Though they didn't entirely clear up the situation, they will help me in my rulings for/against them~