Armor spikes and grappling [Archive] - Wizards Community

Armor spikes and grappling [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Brodec_the_Druid
07-06-05, 02:21 AM When you're in a grapple with armor spikes, do they count as a light weapon (and thus an attack must be made) or as part of the regular grapple (in which case a normal grapple check would be rolled to see if damage was delt). If it is the latter, do feats such as weapon focus work to improve the grapple check? If so how? A basic explanation of grappling with armor spikes would be appreciated (all of this assuming the character in question has the improved grapple feat.)
Tony Vargas
07-06-05, 07:25 PM I believe the FAQ goes into this in some detail. The upshot, IIRC, is that you have your choice of using the armor spikes as a light weapon (at the usual -4 penalty), or making a grapple check to inflict damage with them.
the artful dodger
07-07-05, 05:07 AM According to the FAQ, you can use armour spikes when making a grapple check (which the PHB says anyway, so that's not an issue) but you'll do armour spike damage instead of unarmed strike damage, not in addition to.

The other option is to attack with them during a grapple, as a light weapon, with a -4 penalty to hit.

Weapon Focus only helps with attack rolls, not with grapple checks (even if they are a lot like attack rolls).

EDIT:
I'll give a quick summation of how I think grappling with armour spikes goes, including which feats could be useful during each step, and with a short note about some reoccuring discussions on the boards.

1) Trying to begin a grapple provokes an AoO. Impr. Grapple means it doesn't.

Side discussion 1: a grapple is (usually) an unarmed attack. It doesn't outright say so, but it's the only logical conclusion. In that case, it should provoke another AoO for attacking unarmed, even if it doesn't say so explicitly. Not everyone agrees with this (I ignore this possible extra AoO, not based on some rule interpretation but because IMX grappling works fine without it). Addendum to the side discussion: if it provokes an AoO for attacking unarmed, does IUS prevent that? Essentially, some hold that IUS applies to all kinds of unarmed attacks, others that it applies to unarmed strikes only.

2) Grabbing: making a melee touch attack to grab your opponent. Weapon Focus (Grapple) applies here.
3) Holding: an opposed grapple check determines whether you can hold on to your opponent. If you do, you're grappling and get to roll damage. When using armour spikes, roll spikes damage; when not, roll unarmed attack damage (even if you wear armour spikes you can still choose not to use them and do unarmed strike damage instead, for instance because you want to deal non-lethal damage). Weapon Specialization applies here, as does Impr. Grapple.

Side discussion 2: WS (Grapple) definitely applies, but do WS (unarmed strike) or WS (armour spikes) as well? By the rules, they do. You can make a (weak) argument that WS (US) doesn't as the grapple entry says you do damage 'as normal', implying that normal doesn't include WS, but that's about it. Personally, I don't see much sense in this though: I'd prefer only one WS ever to apply in any situation. But that's just me.

4) Maintaining the grapple by moving into your opponent's space.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Brodec_the_Druid 07-06-05, 02:21 AM	When you're in a grapple with armor spikes, do they count as a light weapon (and thus an attack must be made) or as part of the regular grapple (in which case a normal grapple check would be rolled to see if damage was delt). If it is the latter, do feats such as weapon focus work to improve the grapple check? If so how? A basic explanation of grappling with armor spikes would be appreciated (all of this assuming the character in question has the improved grapple feat.)
Tony Vargas 07-06-05, 07:25 PM	I believe the FAQ goes into this in some detail. The upshot, IIRC, is that you have your choice of using the armor spikes as a light weapon (at the usual -4 penalty), or making a grapple check to inflict damage with them.
the artful dodger 07-07-05, 05:07 AM	According to the FAQ, you can use armour spikes when making a grapple check (which the PHB says anyway, so that's not an issue) but you'll do armour spike damage instead of unarmed strike damage, not in addition to. The other option is to attack with them during a grapple, as a light weapon, with a -4 penalty to hit. Weapon Focus only helps with attack rolls, not with grapple checks (even if they are a lot like attack rolls). EDIT: I'll give a quick summation of how I think grappling with armour spikes goes, including which feats could be useful during each step, and with a short note about some reoccuring discussions on the boards. 1) Trying to begin a grapple provokes an AoO. Impr. Grapple means it doesn't. Side discussion 1: a grapple is (usually) an unarmed attack. It doesn't outright say so, but it's the only logical conclusion. In that case, it should provoke another AoO for attacking unarmed, even if it doesn't say so explicitly. Not everyone agrees with this (I ignore this possible extra AoO, not based on some rule interpretation but because IMX grappling works fine without it). Addendum to the side discussion: if it provokes an AoO for attacking unarmed, does IUS prevent that? Essentially, some hold that IUS applies to all kinds of unarmed attacks, others that it applies to unarmed strikes only. 2) Grabbing: making a melee touch attack to grab your opponent. Weapon Focus (Grapple) applies here. 3) Holding: an opposed grapple check determines whether you can hold on to your opponent. If you do, you're grappling and get to roll damage. When using armour spikes, roll spikes damage; when not, roll unarmed attack damage (even if you wear armour spikes you can still choose not to use them and do unarmed strike damage instead, for instance because you want to deal non-lethal damage). Weapon Specialization applies here, as does Impr. Grapple. Side discussion 2: WS (Grapple) definitely applies, but do WS (unarmed strike) or WS (armour spikes) as well? By the rules, they do. You can make a (weak) argument that WS (US) doesn't as the grapple entry says you do damage 'as normal', implying that normal doesn't include WS, but that's about it. Personally, I don't see much sense in this though: I'd prefer only one WS ever to apply in any situation. But that's just me. 4) Maintaining the grapple by moving into your opponent's space.