Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dengarbountyhunter 01-06-07, 05:33 PM	I basically thought that, for many reasons* "armor spikes" should be "body spikes", a set of small metal plates with long spikes fixed on the elbows, knees, feet, etc. with leather straps. It would take as long to put on or remove as light armor (I don't have my books, but I think it's 1 minute or something like this) and can be sundered because of the straps. I don't know if they could still do auto-damage in grapple (you're not covered in spikes anymore) though... *these reasons include (but are not limited to) realism, the need to make armor spikes of the same material as the armor and the desire of some people to NOT wear armor and still have spikes What do you guys think about this?
Fallenangel359 01-06-07, 05:36 PM	armor spikes don't have to be the same material as armor, and they can be added to any form of armor, including gnomish twistcloth which has no max dex, and no armor check penalty
dengarbountyhunter 01-06-07, 05:48 PM	Great. Where's that gnomish thing from (Races of Stone, I presume)?
Tyler Do'Urden 01-06-07, 06:02 PM	I basically thought that, for many reasons* "armor spikes" should be "body spikes", a set of small metal plates with long spikes fixed on the elbows, knees, feet, etc. with leather straps.I saw a dude dressed like that at a rave once. They glowed different colors under blacklight. It was pretty wild.
bondious 01-06-07, 08:23 PM	I'd have no problem with "Body Spikes", myself, and on occaision have thought of doing that exact thing. GO WITH IT! :fight!:
Dheran 01-06-07, 08:32 PM	If you want "body spikes" as weapons, not armor, then they'll have to function as weapons, not as armor. As weapons, they can be sundered. As weapons, they won't automatically do damage in a grapple; you'll need to make an attack roll. As weapons that don't occupy your hands they'll definitely be Exotic, and you'll need the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Body Spikes) feat to use them properly. On the plus side, they could be used by monks and other characters who can't use armor.
bondious 01-06-07, 08:42 PM	If you want "body spikes" as weapons, not armor, then they'll have to function as weapons, not as armor. As weapons, they can be sundered. As weapons, they won't automatically do damage in a grapple; you'll need to make an attack roll. As weapons that don't occupy your hands they'll definitely be Exotic, and you'll need the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Body Spikes) feat to use them properly. I agree with everything above EXCEPT that I think that body spikes should be a martial weapon. I say this because armor spikes are considered martial weapons, despite the fact that they're mounted onto your armor. Same thing with shield spikes and using a shield bash. On the plus side, they could be used by monks and other characters who can't use armor. Remember that these chacters would have to take a feat for this item, whether it is considered marital OR exotic. That'd be cool, though, to see a monk wearing spikes! :D
RLRapp 01-06-07, 08:46 PM	Just use some spiked gauntlets.
Dheran 01-06-07, 09:46 PM	I agree with everything above EXCEPT that I think that body spikes should be a martial weapon. I say this because armor spikes are considered martial weapons, despite the fact that they're mounted onto your armor. I see a couple of problems with this approach. You need some form of armor proficiency to use armor spikes, and not every class that has martial weapon proficiency also has armor proficiency: the Duelist is one example of a class that can't use armor spikes. You'd mess with the balance of things if you gave the Duelist a feature that they can't obtain now, for free. Also, I don't know of an example of another martial weapon that you can use without use of your hands. Is there something like "greaves of striking"? If not, that reinforces my thinking that this should be an Exotic weapon; it just doesn't function the way standard martial weapons do.
bondious 01-06-07, 11:29 PM	I see a couple of problems with this approach. You need some form of armor proficiency to use armor spikes, and not every class that has martial weapon proficiency also has armor proficiency: the Duelist is one example of a class that can't use armor spikes. You'd mess with the balance of things if you gave the Duelist a feature that they can't obtain now, for free. Also, I don't know of an example of another martial weapon that you can use without use of your hands. Is there something like "greaves of striking"? If not, that reinforces my thinking that this should be an Exotic weapon; it just doesn't function the way standard martial weapons do. I see what you mean. Not sure that I agree totally, but I see where you're coming from. My only thought is that the proficiency for armor spikes is seperate from that of your armor proficiency, and it doesn't matter what armor you wear as long as you're proficient with the spikes. I'm just saying that you take away the armor and you're left with the spikes (with straps and whatnot, instead of mounted to the armor), and those spikes are a martial weapon. As for the Duelist example, I'm sure there are a few of those. Yeah, they'll be getting another weapon added to their list for free, but doesn't that happen like EVERY TIME a new sourcebook comes out? I'm just not so sure that armor/body spikes are really THAT big a deal, and not really that big of a boost for these classes as a martial weapon...in my opinion, of course. ;) Here's a thought: make it a martial weapon as you describe it in the previous post, and an exotic weapon to use them just like armor spikes (auto damage with grapple, non-sundering, etc). In the case of a character who isn't already proficient with martial weapons, they can choose whether to take the martial or exotic version, and for characters who DO have marital weapon proficiencies, they can take the exotic feat for a superior effect. How's that?
dengarbountyhunter 01-07-07, 04:28 PM	It's fine, but I don't feel that it really needs to get nerfed as much... Their whole niche is the "use without hands" part. I think that the "can be used without the hands" advantage is worth the less-than average critical modifier... that lets us with the "auto-damage in grapple" thing... And I stated that the body spikes could be sundered, so that's not a problem. Maybe I'll let body spikes have only -2 penalty in grapple instead of auto-damage, and lower the damage? Thus, it ends up being: Body spikes Light martial weapon 20 gp 1d3 (S) 1d4 (M) x2 — 5 lbs Piercing Body spikes are small plates with long spikes, fixed to the elbows, knees, feet, tentacles, etc (depending on the creature's anatomy) by leather straps. One full minute is required to put on the set of body spikes or take them off. The penalty on grapple checks to attack with body spikes in a grapple is reduced to -2. You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case. You can’t also make an attack with body spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and vice versa. No hands are required to make an attack with body spikes. Body spikes are considered as normal weapons for all other purposes. How's that? Oh and speaking of spiked gauntlets, can you punch with a spiked gauntlet if you have a weapon in hand? I'd houserule it -2 with a light weapon and -4 with a one-handed weapon (impossible with a two-hander) if there's no rules supporting this.