Armor Spikes in a grapple Question. Grapple check or attack with light weapon? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Armor Spikes in a grapple Question. Grapple check or attack with light weapon? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
EvilVegan
04-20-07, 12:55 PM If I'm in a grapple and I've got armor spikes do I deal damage with a successful grapple check or do I attack with my spikes as a light weapon?

Does the initial grapple check count as a successful one to deal damage with the spikes?

What if I have improved grab with a claw attack?

So I hit with a claw (d8), then I initiate a grapple for free, I succeed. Do they then take spike damage as I hug them?

Stupid spikes. Stupid grapple.
jaelis
04-20-07, 01:05 PM If I'm in a grapple and I've got armor spikes do I deal damage with a successful grapple check or do I attack with my spikes as a light weapon?

Either, as you like.

Does the initial grapple check count as a successful one to deal damage with the spikes?

I believe so.

What if I have improved grab with a claw attack?

Then you're not using your armor spikes, you're using your claw and you deal claw damage. Whether you could start a grapple with your claw, and then make a subsequent grapple check to deal your armor spike (or unarmed strike) damage is not clear to me.

So I hit with a claw (d8), then I initiate a grapple for free, I succeed. Do they then take spike damage as I hug them?

Almost certainly not, here you are using the special Imp. Grab ability to start a grapple, not the regular grapple rules. Otherwise, the creature would deal it's unarmed strike damage in addition to its claw damage even if it didn't have spikes.

Stupid spikes. Stupid grapple.
QFT.
Steevo
04-20-07, 01:30 PM If I'm in a grapple and I've got armor spikes do I deal damage with a successful grapple check or do I attack with my spikes as a light weapon?

Does the initial grapple check count as a successful one to deal damage with the spikes?

Unless I'm gravely mistaken, you can only do nonlethal damage with a grapple check, unless you have some sort of feat. Armors spikes deal lethal damage by default, so I'd say you have to use the "attack with a light weapon" option to use the spikes in a grapple. The advantage is that you don't have to draw them first, and they can't be disarmed by the opponent.
mvincent
04-20-07, 02:31 PM Unless I'm gravely mistaken, you can only do nonlethal damage with a grapple check, unless you have some sort of feat. Armors spikes deal lethal damage by default, so I'd say you have to use the "attack with a light weapon" option to use the spikes in a grapple.You appear to be 'gravely mistaken'. From the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm#armorSpikes):
"You can have spikes added to your armor, which allow you to deal extra piercing damage (see Table: Weapons) on a successful grapple attack. The spikes count as a martial weapon. If you are not proficient with them, you take a -4 penalty on grapple checks when you try to use them. You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case."
Longarms
04-20-07, 05:09 PM After reading this thread, I noticed something for the first time. If you are trying to do lethal damage using a grapple check and you are not a monk, you are generally better off using armor spikes even if non-proficient in them than not.

For example, grapple check for lethal damage if non-monk is -4 to hit and 1d3 base damage. Whereas, grapple check with armor spikes when non-proficient is also -4 to hit but better 1d6 base damage. Average extra 1.5 damage for non-proficiently using the armor spikes there :cool:
Steevo
04-21-07, 11:28 AM You appear to be 'gravely mistaken'. From the rules:
"You can have spikes added to your armor, which allow you to deal extra piercing damage (see Table: Weapons) on a successful grapple attack. The spikes count as a martial weapon. If you are not proficient with them, you take a -4 penalty on grapple checks when you try to use them. You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case."

I stand corrected.

For example, grapple check for lethal damage if non-monk is -4 to hit and 1d3 base damage. Whereas, grapple check with armor spikes when non-proficient is also -4 to hit but better 1d6 base damage. Average extra 1.5 damage for non-proficiently using the armor spikes there :cool:

Which makes sense. A non-monk in a grapple with pointy bits all over his armor is liable to inflict more lethal damage than a non-monk with smooth, flat armor.
Fallenangel359
04-21-07, 12:15 PM Now whats fun is you take 1 level of monk, just for improved unarmed strike and improved grapple and then go with lots of fighter. Take jotunbrud if you want to go ever further with that. Then get into reaping mauler. You grapple them and spike them while trying to kill them with grapple checks.

Just for fun, add bonus properties to the spikes, such as wounding. Every time you succede on a grapple check, your opponent takes 1 con damage.

Isn't there an enhancement out there that does something simular to strength?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
EvilVegan 04-20-07, 12:55 PM	If I'm in a grapple and I've got armor spikes do I deal damage with a successful grapple check or do I attack with my spikes as a light weapon? Does the initial grapple check count as a successful one to deal damage with the spikes? What if I have improved grab with a claw attack? So I hit with a claw (d8), then I initiate a grapple for free, I succeed. Do they then take spike damage as I hug them? Stupid spikes. Stupid grapple.
jaelis 04-20-07, 01:05 PM	If I'm in a grapple and I've got armor spikes do I deal damage with a successful grapple check or do I attack with my spikes as a light weapon? Either, as you like. Does the initial grapple check count as a successful one to deal damage with the spikes? I believe so. What if I have improved grab with a claw attack? Then you're not using your armor spikes, you're using your claw and you deal claw damage. Whether you could start a grapple with your claw, and then make a subsequent grapple check to deal your armor spike (or unarmed strike) damage is not clear to me. So I hit with a claw (d8), then I initiate a grapple for free, I succeed. Do they then take spike damage as I hug them? Almost certainly not, here you are using the special Imp. Grab ability to start a grapple, not the regular grapple rules. Otherwise, the creature would deal it's unarmed strike damage in addition to its claw damage even if it didn't have spikes. Stupid spikes. Stupid grapple. QFT.
Steevo 04-20-07, 01:30 PM	If I'm in a grapple and I've got armor spikes do I deal damage with a successful grapple check or do I attack with my spikes as a light weapon? Does the initial grapple check count as a successful one to deal damage with the spikes? Unless I'm gravely mistaken, you can only do nonlethal damage with a grapple check, unless you have some sort of feat. Armors spikes deal lethal damage by default, so I'd say you have to use the "attack with a light weapon" option to use the spikes in a grapple. The advantage is that you don't have to draw them first, and they can't be disarmed by the opponent.
mvincent 04-20-07, 02:31 PM	Unless I'm gravely mistaken, you can only do nonlethal damage with a grapple check, unless you have some sort of feat. Armors spikes deal lethal damage by default, so I'd say you have to use the "attack with a light weapon" option to use the spikes in a grapple.You appear to be 'gravely mistaken'. From the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm#armorSpikes): "You can have spikes added to your armor, which allow you to deal extra piercing damage (see Table: Weapons) on a successful grapple attack. The spikes count as a martial weapon. If you are not proficient with them, you take a -4 penalty on grapple checks when you try to use them. You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case."
Longarms 04-20-07, 05:09 PM	After reading this thread, I noticed something for the first time. If you are trying to do lethal damage using a grapple check and you are not a monk, you are generally better off using armor spikes even if non-proficient in them than not. For example, grapple check for lethal damage if non-monk is -4 to hit and 1d3 base damage. Whereas, grapple check with armor spikes when non-proficient is also -4 to hit but better 1d6 base damage. Average extra 1.5 damage for non-proficiently using the armor spikes there :cool:
Steevo 04-21-07, 11:28 AM	You appear to be 'gravely mistaken'. From the rules: "You can have spikes added to your armor, which allow you to deal extra piercing damage (see Table: Weapons) on a successful grapple attack. The spikes count as a martial weapon. If you are not proficient with them, you take a -4 penalty on grapple checks when you try to use them. You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case." I stand corrected. For example, grapple check for lethal damage if non-monk is -4 to hit and 1d3 base damage. Whereas, grapple check with armor spikes when non-proficient is also -4 to hit but better 1d6 base damage. Average extra 1.5 damage for non-proficiently using the armor spikes there :cool: Which makes sense. A non-monk in a grapple with pointy bits all over his armor is liable to inflict more lethal damage than a non-monk with smooth, flat armor.
Fallenangel359 04-21-07, 12:15 PM	Now whats fun is you take 1 level of monk, just for improved unarmed strike and improved grapple and then go with lots of fighter. Take jotunbrud if you want to go ever further with that. Then get into reaping mauler. You grapple them and spike them while trying to kill them with grapple checks. Just for fun, add bonus properties to the spikes, such as wounding. Every time you succede on a grapple check, your opponent takes 1 con damage. Isn't there an enhancement out there that does something simular to strength?