Armor Spikes? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Armor Spikes? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ryuoch
06-30-07, 11:29 AM I have a character that’s going to be using a Gisarme for reach and someone suggested that I put armor spikes on my armor because then I would threaten 10ft with the gisarme and 5ft with the armor spikes. Is this correct?
SALDAR
06-30-07, 12:32 PM Yes, they are a light martial weapon.
InkBlot
06-30-07, 02:35 PM Just keep in mind that any Attacks of Opportunity you make with the Armor Spikes will be at a -4 penalty. Armor Spikes are always an offhand weapon, and all attacks with offhand weapons take a -4 penalty (even if you aren't two-weapon-fighting). Check page 311 of the Player's Handbook if you don't believe me.
SALDAR
06-30-07, 02:59 PM They are not always an off-hand attack.

From the SRD:
You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case.

You only take the -4 to attacks if you are using them for an off-hand attack when fighting with two weapons. If you are only making an AoO then you are using them as a regular melee attack, since this is what you normally use to make AoOs, and suffer no penalty to the attack.
Pentagram
06-30-07, 05:56 PM The -4 penalty for off-hand attacks is used when using one weapon only, and holding it in the wrong hand, or when dual-wielding without the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (the penalty for your off-hand attack will be -4 worse than the penalty for your primary attack).

If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat and use armor spikes as either your primary or off-hand attack, you will not get a -4 penalty (although, of course, you will still get the normal penalties for fighting with two weapons).

Using armor spikes as attacks of opportunity will not yield any penalties (unless you lack proficiency with them, naturally).
runestar
06-30-07, 10:05 PM The -4 penalty for off-hand attacks is used when using one weapon only, and holding it in the wrong hand, or when dual-wielding without the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (the penalty for your off-hand attack will be -4 worse than the penalty for your primary attack).
Not true. I don't believe that there is such a thing as an "off-hand" when fighting with just 1 weapon. I know the PHB does make mention of it, but I do not think that it is really enforced in the game, and it is mostly fluff. Basically, it should be safe to assume that everyone is ambidextrous, and that the purpose of a "off-hand" was simply to penalize the TWF'er, not to punish the player for wielding the weapon with the wrong hand (which has no mechanical impact whatsoever).:)
Anathema
06-30-07, 10:40 PM As a Guisarme is a two-handed weapon, I would probably not allow you to make attacks (including AoO's) with Armor Spikes in the same round that you attacked with a Guisarme; and Vice-Versa.

In the rounds you used Armor Spikes though, it would not strictly be an 'off-hand' weapon.
runestar
07-01-07, 01:14 AM As a Guisarme is a two-handed weapon, I would probably not allow you to make attacks (including AoO's) with Armor Spikes in the same round that you attacked with a Guisarme; and Vice-Versa.
Why not? You can TWF with a 2-handed weapon and armour spikes.:)

But then, the penalties apply only when TWFing. So there is nothing stopping you with making an AoO with your armour spikes as your main weapon.

It seems like the same logic as TWFing with 2 1-handed weapons and subsequently making AoOs...
Anathema
07-01-07, 01:49 AM Why not? You can TWF with a 2-handed weapon and armour spikes.:)

Can you? Might I ask where it says this?
AAB
07-01-07, 01:51 AM i don't know where it says it in the book, but others do and i will give them the honor of finding it. "off-hand" does not necessarily mean "in your other hand". it could be a knee, a kick, a headbut, etc. it's just the way it works.
runestar
07-01-07, 02:00 AM Here are the relevant articles from the FAQ.

Is a character wielding a two-handed reach weapon (such as a longspear) and wearing spiked armor threatening all squares within 10 feet? Assuming he has Combat Reflexes, can he make an attack of opportunity with his longspear and then with his armor spikes in the same round?

A character wearing spiked armor threatens all squares within his normal reach (5 feet away). If he also wields a longspear, he would also threaten all squares 10 feet away. Any time a character wielding more than one weapon is allowed an attack of opportunity, he may use any weapon that threatens the opponent who has provoked the attack. In this case, imagine an enemy who charged the character and then tried to disarm him. The charge attack would provoke an attack of opportunity from the longspear as the enemy moved out of a threatened square (in order to move adjacent to the character and deliver the charge attack). Then, the disarm attempt would provoke another attack of opportunity (assuming the enemy didn’t have Improved Disarm). This attack of opportunity could be made only with the armor spikes, since the longspear doesn’t threaten an adjacent enemy.

and

Just how and when can you use armor spikes? If you’re using two weapons already, can you use armor spikes to make a second off-hand attack? What if you’re using a weapon and a shield? Can you use the armor spikes for an off-hand attack and still get a shield bonus to Armor Class from the shield? What if you use a two-handed weapon? Can you wield the weapon in two hands and still make an off-hand attack with the spikes? What are your options for using armor spikes in a grapple? Can you use them when pinned? If you have another light weapon, can you use that and your armor spikes when grappling?

When you fight with more than one weapon, you gain an extra attack. (Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and greater Two-Weapon Fighting give you more attacks with the extra weapon.) Armor spikes are a light weapon that can be used as the extra weapon.

If you attack only with your armor spikes during your turn (or use the armor spikes to make an attack of opportunity), you use them just like a regular weapon. If you use the full attack action, you can use armor spikes as either a primary light weapon or as an off-hand light weapon, even if you’re using a shield or using a two-handed weapon. In these latter two cases, you’re assumed to be kicking or kneeing your foe with your armor spikes.

Whenever you use armor spikes as an off-hand weapon, you suffer all the penalties for attacking with two weapons (see Table 8–10 in the Player’s Handbook). When using armor spikes along with a two-handed weapon, it is usually best to use the two-handed weapon as your primary attack and the armor spikes as the off-hand weapon. You can use the armor spikes as the primary weapon and the two-handed weapon as the off-hand attack, but when you do so, you don’t get the benefit of using a light weapon in your off hand. You cannot, however, use your armor spikes to make a second off-hand attack when you’re already fighting with two weapons. If you have a weapon in both hands and armor spikes, you can attack with the weapons in your hands (and not with the armor spikes) or with one of the weapons in your hands and the armor spikes (see the description of spiked armor in Chapter 7 of the Player’s Handbook).

Snip

Throw in an animated shield, and you are 2HFing, 2WFing and benefiting from a shield all at the same time...:D
Anathema
07-01-07, 02:45 AM :thinks: Interesting .. I see where the FAQ is coming from .. but not very intuitive though if you ask me.

Sounds like a great way to keep threatening close squares, in any case.
Mighty_Draco
07-01-07, 03:57 AM Glaive + Flaming Armor Spikes + Combat Reflexes + Karmic Strike = Pure Awesomeness :lop:

Using reach weapons with armor spikes can make for some very fun characters :P
TheCobra
07-01-07, 04:03 AM I know the PHB does make mention of it, but I do not think that it is really enforced in the game, and it is mostly fluff.

As it's in the PHB, a DM would be entirely justified in enforcing the penalty. It's a -4 penalty. That's crunchy, not fluffy.
Mighty_Draco
07-01-07, 04:35 AM The PHB simply says that attacks made with the off-hand take a -4 penalty on attack and deal half str to damage. The section on armor spikes says "You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case." The section on AoOs says "You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your action." It seems pretty clear cut to me that you don't take off-hand penalties on AoOs made with armor spikes unless you choose (:confused:) to make it as an off-hand attack

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ryuoch 06-30-07, 11:29 AM	I have a character that’s going to be using a Gisarme for reach and someone suggested that I put armor spikes on my armor because then I would threaten 10ft with the gisarme and 5ft with the armor spikes. Is this correct?
SALDAR 06-30-07, 12:32 PM	Yes, they are a light martial weapon.
InkBlot 06-30-07, 02:35 PM	Just keep in mind that any Attacks of Opportunity you make with the Armor Spikes will be at a -4 penalty. Armor Spikes are always an offhand weapon, and all attacks with offhand weapons take a -4 penalty (even if you aren't two-weapon-fighting). Check page 311 of the Player's Handbook if you don't believe me.
SALDAR 06-30-07, 02:59 PM	They are not always an off-hand attack. From the SRD: You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case. You only take the -4 to attacks if you are using them for an off-hand attack when fighting with two weapons. If you are only making an AoO then you are using them as a regular melee attack, since this is what you normally use to make AoOs, and suffer no penalty to the attack.
Pentagram 06-30-07, 05:56 PM	The -4 penalty for off-hand attacks is used when using one weapon only, and holding it in the wrong hand, or when dual-wielding without the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (the penalty for your off-hand attack will be -4 worse than the penalty for your primary attack). If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat and use armor spikes as either your primary or off-hand attack, you will not get a -4 penalty (although, of course, you will still get the normal penalties for fighting with two weapons). Using armor spikes as attacks of opportunity will not yield any penalties (unless you lack proficiency with them, naturally).
runestar 06-30-07, 10:05 PM	The -4 penalty for off-hand attacks is used when using one weapon only, and holding it in the wrong hand, or when dual-wielding without the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (the penalty for your off-hand attack will be -4 worse than the penalty for your primary attack). Not true. I don't believe that there is such a thing as an "off-hand" when fighting with just 1 weapon. I know the PHB does make mention of it, but I do not think that it is really enforced in the game, and it is mostly fluff. Basically, it should be safe to assume that everyone is ambidextrous, and that the purpose of a "off-hand" was simply to penalize the TWF'er, not to punish the player for wielding the weapon with the wrong hand (which has no mechanical impact whatsoever).:)
Anathema 06-30-07, 10:40 PM	As a Guisarme is a two-handed weapon, I would probably not allow you to make attacks (including AoO's) with Armor Spikes in the same round that you attacked with a Guisarme; and Vice-Versa. In the rounds you used Armor Spikes though, it would not strictly be an 'off-hand' weapon.
runestar 07-01-07, 01:14 AM	As a Guisarme is a two-handed weapon, I would probably not allow you to make attacks (including AoO's) with Armor Spikes in the same round that you attacked with a Guisarme; and Vice-Versa. Why not? You can TWF with a 2-handed weapon and armour spikes.:) But then, the penalties apply only when TWFing. So there is nothing stopping you with making an AoO with your armour spikes as your main weapon. It seems like the same logic as TWFing with 2 1-handed weapons and subsequently making AoOs...
Anathema 07-01-07, 01:49 AM	Why not? You can TWF with a 2-handed weapon and armour spikes.:) Can you? Might I ask where it says this?
AAB 07-01-07, 01:51 AM	i don't know where it says it in the book, but others do and i will give them the honor of finding it. "off-hand" does not necessarily mean "in your other hand". it could be a knee, a kick, a headbut, etc. it's just the way it works.
runestar 07-01-07, 02:00 AM	Here are the relevant articles from the FAQ. Is a character wielding a two-handed reach weapon (such as a longspear) and wearing spiked armor threatening all squares within 10 feet? Assuming he has Combat Reflexes, can he make an attack of opportunity with his longspear and then with his armor spikes in the same round? A character wearing spiked armor threatens all squares within his normal reach (5 feet away). If he also wields a longspear, he would also threaten all squares 10 feet away. Any time a character wielding more than one weapon is allowed an attack of opportunity, he may use any weapon that threatens the opponent who has provoked the attack. In this case, imagine an enemy who charged the character and then tried to disarm him. The charge attack would provoke an attack of opportunity from the longspear as the enemy moved out of a threatened square (in order to move adjacent to the character and deliver the charge attack). Then, the disarm attempt would provoke another attack of opportunity (assuming the enemy didn’t have Improved Disarm). This attack of opportunity could be made only with the armor spikes, since the longspear doesn’t threaten an adjacent enemy. and Just how and when can you use armor spikes? If you’re using two weapons already, can you use armor spikes to make a second off-hand attack? What if you’re using a weapon and a shield? Can you use the armor spikes for an off-hand attack and still get a shield bonus to Armor Class from the shield? What if you use a two-handed weapon? Can you wield the weapon in two hands and still make an off-hand attack with the spikes? What are your options for using armor spikes in a grapple? Can you use them when pinned? If you have another light weapon, can you use that and your armor spikes when grappling? When you fight with more than one weapon, you gain an extra attack. (Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and greater Two-Weapon Fighting give you more attacks with the extra weapon.) Armor spikes are a light weapon that can be used as the extra weapon. If you attack only with your armor spikes during your turn (or use the armor spikes to make an attack of opportunity), you use them just like a regular weapon. If you use the full attack action, you can use armor spikes as either a primary light weapon or as an off-hand light weapon, even if you’re using a shield or using a two-handed weapon. In these latter two cases, you’re assumed to be kicking or kneeing your foe with your armor spikes. Whenever you use armor spikes as an off-hand weapon, you suffer all the penalties for attacking with two weapons (see Table 8–10 in the Player’s Handbook). When using armor spikes along with a two-handed weapon, it is usually best to use the two-handed weapon as your primary attack and the armor spikes as the off-hand weapon. You can use the armor spikes as the primary weapon and the two-handed weapon as the off-hand attack, but when you do so, you don’t get the benefit of using a light weapon in your off hand. You cannot, however, use your armor spikes to make a second off-hand attack when you’re already fighting with two weapons. If you have a weapon in both hands and armor spikes, you can attack with the weapons in your hands (and not with the armor spikes) or with one of the weapons in your hands and the armor spikes (see the description of spiked armor in Chapter 7 of the Player’s Handbook). Snip Throw in an animated shield, and you are 2HFing, 2WFing and benefiting from a shield all at the same time...:D
Anathema 07-01-07, 02:45 AM	:thinks: Interesting .. I see where the FAQ is coming from .. but not very intuitive though if you ask me. Sounds like a great way to keep threatening close squares, in any case.
Mighty_Draco 07-01-07, 03:57 AM	Glaive + Flaming Armor Spikes + Combat Reflexes + Karmic Strike = Pure Awesomeness :lop: Using reach weapons with armor spikes can make for some very fun characters :P
TheCobra 07-01-07, 04:03 AM	I know the PHB does make mention of it, but I do not think that it is really enforced in the game, and it is mostly fluff. As it's in the PHB, a DM would be entirely justified in enforcing the penalty. It's a -4 penalty. That's crunchy, not fluffy.
Mighty_Draco 07-01-07, 04:35 AM	The PHB simply says that attacks made with the off-hand take a -4 penalty on attack and deal half str to damage. The section on armor spikes says "You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case." The section on AoOs says "You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your action." It seems pretty clear cut to me that you don't take off-hand penalties on AoOs made with armor spikes unless you choose (:confused:) to make it as an off-hand attack