Armor table and "tech level" [Archive] - Wizards Community

Armor table and "tech level" [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Thelon Fairblade
05-09-05, 10:11 AM I want to simulate a reduced "tech level" available in a new homebrew world. I have "heard" argued before that the reason certain armors are better than certain others is because they are the best refinements created so far. I.e. a Breastplate is better than Chainmail because of improvements in armorer techniques and skills. Or, going the other way, a Chainshirt is more efficient than chainmail, and flat better than scalemail. and of course, just about everything is better than Hide armor.

So, where would you draw the line, or separate the armor table into something akin to "tech levels"?

Right now, for example, I have the humans able to make leather, studded leather, scalemail, and chainmail. the elves can make leather, chainshirts, a special kind of ironleaf scalemail, and a darkwood "breastplate". the dwarves can make chainmail, breastplates, splintmail, and half-plate. No one knows how to make Full Plate at this time...
tarkin
05-09-05, 11:12 AM I would rate it as follows: (Ordered even within category, Hide is the most primitive, Padded Armor is the most advanced of the "primitive" class.)

Primitive
Hide armor
Tower Shield
Leather Armor
Padded Armor

Bronze Age
Studded Leather
Heavy Shield
Breast Plate
Light Shield
Shield spikes

Iron Age
Chain Shirt
Buckler Shield
Chain Mail
Splint Mail
Scale Mail

Middle Ages
Banded Mail
1/2 Plate
Full Plate

Remember, Breast Plate is fairly primitive - the Romans had it before Chain became common.
Wolf72
05-09-05, 11:13 AM get a list of the armors (which you have) and then start seperating them by categories:

common: the not very good stuff, don't want the common folk getting anything to useful. Padded, hide,

uncommon: the okay stuff. leather, studded leather, scale mail, splint mail

hard to get: need to be part of militia/army. chain sirts, 1/2plate, chain mail, 1/2 plate

rare: with noble permission only ... full plate, breast plate,

just some ideas ... basically have an availability rating and try to stick to it for PC's, NPC's and mosnters (hobgoblins, bugbears, etc)
Thelon Fairblade
05-09-05, 01:01 PM Thanks to both of you!
Silimaure
05-10-05, 02:06 AM Arms and Equipment Guide has a table suggesting what weapons and armors fit a certain situation, much like you are talking about, I highly suggest picking that book up.
Vahenir
05-10-05, 02:26 AM What tech level are you trying to simulate? It's usually just a matter of dropping Plate (full and half) off the list.

Most other armour types were around for quite awhile, in one form or another.

For example.. are you playing a Roman-era Tech Level? If so, you only need to ditch three kinds of armour:

Full Plate, Half Plate, Chainmail (chain shirt stays, though).

Everything else was perfectly available. Banded Armour and Chain Shirts were a common soldier's armour in Roman days, for example.

So unless you're going Pre-Rome type of Tech Level.. there's only three armour styles you need to take off the list.
Thelon Fairblade
05-10-05, 10:08 AM (I don't have the Arms & Equipment Guide, and I'd prefer not to purchase yet another supplement that I would rarely refer to. I thank you for the suggestion of existing rules, though... I will see if one of my players has it.)

The chain shirt is superior in almost every way to a chainmail hauberk, so why would I want to remove chainmail (in the Roman-era example) as "too high-tech"?

I am not aiming for a certain "era", since my own knowledge of historical specifics is limited to what I have seen in movies or played in games - not especially accurate source mediums! I just want to reorganize the armor charts to give in-game reasons for certain types of armor to be in play, and to emphasize that this particular world is not as advanced socially or metallurgicaly as, say, the Forgotten Realms.
Vahenir
05-10-05, 04:28 PM The chain shirt is superior in almost every way to a chainmail hauberk, so why would I want to remove chainmail (in the Roman-era example) as "too high-tech"?

No, the chain shirt is superior in the game - statistically.

Realistically, it's not.

Chainmail represents a more complete covering - while the chain shirt is just that - a simple shirt of mail. Mail shirts have been around since the Roman era. But fuller hauberks didn't come to be until the Dark Ages - and longer hauberks and chausses weren't invented until even later (around the Crusading era, the late Dark Ages/Early Medieval period).

So if you're trying to make it sensible and not just "what is statistically better" - then chainmail is an ADVANCEMENT of a simple mail shirt.

So, for example, if you were playing a Roman-era game.. you could keep the chain shirt - because mail corselets existed back then. But you'd have to get rid of 'chainmail' because long, heavy hauberks and chausses did -not- exist at that time. Regardless of which one is statistically superior in the game.
Vahenir
05-10-05, 04:44 PM By the way.. if you compare the chain shirt to chainmail for your average soldier - it's easy to see how they would view chainmail as an advancement - it's more protective.

Remember that the PCs are special. Dex bonuses, lots of money to blow, etc. Remember also that NPCs are the opposite. Your average soldier is probably equipped by his lord, not to mention he has mundane stats. 8s, 9s, 10s, maybe a 12 here or there. Let's be liberal and make your average soldier's stats:

Strength: 12
Dexterity: 12
Wisdom: 10
Intelligence: 9
Charisma: 9
Constitution: 10

Those are -really- good stats for your basic NPC soldier (1st level Warrior).

Now let's compare the two kinds of armour

Chain Shirt: +4 AC, 4 Max Dex, ACP -2, ASF 20%, Normal Speed
Chainmail: +5 AC, 2 Max Dex, ACP -5, ASF 30%, 10-feet reduction in Speed

Here's the comparison:

ASF: Doesn't matter to a 1st level Warrior. He can't cast spells anyway.
Max Dex: With either armour - it doesn't matter to him since his Dex is only 12.
Speed: A reduction in speed doesn't matter either. In the press of combat, he's not going to be moving too far -anyway-, so moving 10 feet less in a round is fairly meaningless to him.
ACP: Also meaningless. Your average soldier isn't going to be climbing mountains, swimming, or otherwise doing anything in his armour except for fighting. He's not an adventurer, he's a soldier - ACP means nothing to most soldiers.
AC Bonus: Chainmail's is better.

Winner: Chainmail. It has one point more AC bonus and that's all that matters to your average soldier.

Now do the same comparison with a PC and you'll see that things change. An adventurer PC has to care about things like reduced movement, ACP, and Max Dex. But you have to remember that the average soldier just doesn't have any reason to care about these things.

So for your average soldier.. chainmail is flat out better.

Personally, though, I think chainmail should be a little better than it is.. maybe another point of AC bonus and a slightly higher Max Dex or something. Chainmail was very effective for a long time. But that is neither here nor there. Statistically, a 1st level Warrior is better off in chainmail than he is in a chain shirt.
tarkin
05-10-05, 05:00 PM Also, not all "advancements" result in more effective items.

Sometimes it takes more advanced knowledge to make something, but it is just cheaper.
Vahenir
05-10-05, 06:10 PM Absolutely.

Or, conversely, you have to 'advance' to something that's not as good as what you already had - in order to advance further itno something that's better.

But in the case of mail shirt/mail hauberk.. the hauberk is by far superior (historically speaking).. it's just a shame that its stats don't reflect how good it was (I'm not saying it was the best armour -ever-, but it was, in my opinion, better than its stats seem to say).
Dire Celestial Bonobo
05-10-05, 08:14 PM But in the case of mail shirt/mail hauberk.. the hauberk is by far superior (historically speaking).. it's just a shame that its stats don't reflect how good it was (I'm not saying it was the best armour -ever-, but it was, in my opinion, better than its stats seem to say).

Was it better, or was a mail shirt worse?

It seems like there's a very small different between light and medium armours, especially considering the significant increase in penalties. My intuition is that that's because D&D makes light armours better than they should be---is a simple chain shirt really twice as protective as a heavy shield?---but I can't say for sure. Thoughts?
Vahenir
05-10-05, 08:32 PM I agree.. D&D puts too much emphasis on Light Armour. In my opinion - it shouldn't be as good as anything else.. it's not as protective, period. But then.. D&D's armour classifications are really.. really weird.

Armour doesn't really slow you down very much. And the check penalties and Max Dex seem to lack any real logic to them.

I imagine it's all a balance consideration. But if you want to get technical - light armour is way too good. I'd rather have a shield than a chain shirt. In D&D.. that's totally illogical for most characters. Aside from that.. the medium armour category pretty much sucks.

It's all difficult to remedy, however, without messing with 'balance.'
IceFractal
05-11-05, 03:33 AM AU has a pretty interesting armor setup. Not that realisic maybe, but there's a much wider spread of armors, going up to ones that provide significantly higher protection (and higher cost), than in D&D.
Thelon Fairblade
05-11-05, 08:55 AM AU? Arcana Unearthed?

Re: Chain Shirt vs Chainmail. I accept your arguments of reality. I was stating only the mechanics of the D&D armors. And I also valued the speed of the Chain Shirt over the +1 AC and 33% speed reduction of Chainmail. (I realize the DEX won't matter, although I humbly suggest that a human warrior might use the 13,12,11 array, like all humanoid warriors do in the MM.)

All of you bring up some good points about "Advancement", though. I think what I really want to do is just use a new Armor Table for my campaign, rebalanced so each class of armors is worth the trade offs (and the proficiency to use them). I'm thinking Light Armor is +1 to +3, Medium is +3 (Hide) to +6 (Banded), and Heavy is +6 (splint) to +9 ("dwarven plate")....
Vahenir
05-11-05, 03:31 PM although I humbly suggest that a human warrior might use the 13,12,11 array, like all humanoid warriors do in the MM.)

Good point. Though, either way, it still becomes an issue of "Speed Reduction vs. Armour Bonus" - and for a simple soldier on the battlefield, I know what I'd choose.

All of you bring up some good points about "Advancement", though. I think what I really want to do is just use a new Armor Table for my campaign, rebalanced so each class of armors is worth the trade offs (and the proficiency to use them). I'm thinking Light Armor is +1 to +3, Medium is +3 (Hide) to +6 (Banded), and Heavy is +6 (splint) to +9 ("dwarven plate")....

It's an excellent goal, to be sure.

But you might find it a tad difficult to make -all- the armour styles different in a system where they're all equally worth taking.

For example, unless you make the Chain Shirt kind of suck, there's really no reason for anyone to choose studded leather. And so on.

Have any ideas on how you plan to make all armour types good at once without having to nerf any of them?
Thelon Fairblade
05-12-05, 10:57 AM In my not-thought-out plan, you would take Studded Leather because it is the "best" of the Light Armors (+3 AC). The Chain Shirt "slot" on the armor table would either be removed, or bumped up to Medium Armors.

I'm even thinking of borrowing some ideas I gave to another DM's campaign, and having "armor templates" to apply generically. Specifically "shoddy/lowtech" and "excellent/highquality"... so generic Chainmail might be +5 AC, +2 max Dex, while "Shoddy Chainmail" would be +5 / +1, and "Excellent" would be +5/+3 (replacing the breastplate). Chainmail would be the "+5 AC" armor, period. barbarous hobgoblins making their lowtech chainmail from iron would have +5/+1 chainmail, and dwarven mastersmiths with special alloys would have +5/+3 chainmail... just as protective, but far more flexible.

Just thoughts as I type them, though....
Silimaure
05-12-05, 03:30 PM (I don't have the Arms & Equipment Guide, and I'd prefer not to purchase yet another supplement that I would rarely refer to. I thank you for the suggestion of existing rules, though... I will see if one of my players has it.)

I wouldn't highly suggest a book unless I myself, along with many others I know, refer to this book quite often. Browse through it at a local gaming store, and see if you like it (which I think you will).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thelon Fairblade 05-09-05, 10:11 AM	I want to simulate a reduced "tech level" available in a new homebrew world. I have "heard" argued before that the reason certain armors are better than certain others is because they are the best refinements created so far. I.e. a Breastplate is better than Chainmail because of improvements in armorer techniques and skills. Or, going the other way, a Chainshirt is more efficient than chainmail, and flat better than scalemail. and of course, just about everything is better than Hide armor. So, where would you draw the line, or separate the armor table into something akin to "tech levels"? Right now, for example, I have the humans able to make leather, studded leather, scalemail, and chainmail. the elves can make leather, chainshirts, a special kind of ironleaf scalemail, and a darkwood "breastplate". the dwarves can make chainmail, breastplates, splintmail, and half-plate. No one knows how to make Full Plate at this time...
tarkin 05-09-05, 11:12 AM	I would rate it as follows: (Ordered even within category, Hide is the most primitive, Padded Armor is the most advanced of the "primitive" class.) Primitive Hide armor Tower Shield Leather Armor Padded Armor Bronze Age Studded Leather Heavy Shield Breast Plate Light Shield Shield spikes Iron Age Chain Shirt Buckler Shield Chain Mail Splint Mail Scale Mail Middle Ages Banded Mail 1/2 Plate Full Plate Remember, Breast Plate is fairly primitive - the Romans had it before Chain became common.
Wolf72 05-09-05, 11:13 AM	get a list of the armors (which you have) and then start seperating them by categories: common: the not very good stuff, don't want the common folk getting anything to useful. Padded, hide, uncommon: the okay stuff. leather, studded leather, scale mail, splint mail hard to get: need to be part of militia/army. chain sirts, 1/2plate, chain mail, 1/2 plate rare: with noble permission only ... full plate, breast plate, just some ideas ... basically have an availability rating and try to stick to it for PC's, NPC's and mosnters (hobgoblins, bugbears, etc)
Thelon Fairblade 05-09-05, 01:01 PM	Thanks to both of you!
Silimaure 05-10-05, 02:06 AM	Arms and Equipment Guide has a table suggesting what weapons and armors fit a certain situation, much like you are talking about, I highly suggest picking that book up.
Vahenir 05-10-05, 02:26 AM	What tech level are you trying to simulate? It's usually just a matter of dropping Plate (full and half) off the list. Most other armour types were around for quite awhile, in one form or another. For example.. are you playing a Roman-era Tech Level? If so, you only need to ditch three kinds of armour: Full Plate, Half Plate, Chainmail (chain shirt stays, though). Everything else was perfectly available. Banded Armour and Chain Shirts were a common soldier's armour in Roman days, for example. So unless you're going Pre-Rome type of Tech Level.. there's only three armour styles you need to take off the list.
Thelon Fairblade 05-10-05, 10:08 AM	(I don't have the Arms & Equipment Guide, and I'd prefer not to purchase yet another supplement that I would rarely refer to. I thank you for the suggestion of existing rules, though... I will see if one of my players has it.) The chain shirt is superior in almost every way to a chainmail hauberk, so why would I want to remove chainmail (in the Roman-era example) as "too high-tech"? I am not aiming for a certain "era", since my own knowledge of historical specifics is limited to what I have seen in movies or played in games - not especially accurate source mediums! I just want to reorganize the armor charts to give in-game reasons for certain types of armor to be in play, and to emphasize that this particular world is not as advanced socially or metallurgicaly as, say, the Forgotten Realms.
Vahenir 05-10-05, 04:28 PM	The chain shirt is superior in almost every way to a chainmail hauberk, so why would I want to remove chainmail (in the Roman-era example) as "too high-tech"? No, the chain shirt is superior in the game - statistically. Realistically, it's not. Chainmail represents a more complete covering - while the chain shirt is just that - a simple shirt of mail. Mail shirts have been around since the Roman era. But fuller hauberks didn't come to be until the Dark Ages - and longer hauberks and chausses weren't invented until even later (around the Crusading era, the late Dark Ages/Early Medieval period). So if you're trying to make it sensible and not just "what is statistically better" - then chainmail is an ADVANCEMENT of a simple mail shirt. So, for example, if you were playing a Roman-era game.. you could keep the chain shirt - because mail corselets existed back then. But you'd have to get rid of 'chainmail' because long, heavy hauberks and chausses did -not- exist at that time. Regardless of which one is statistically superior in the game.
Vahenir 05-10-05, 04:44 PM	By the way.. if you compare the chain shirt to chainmail for your average soldier - it's easy to see how they would view chainmail as an advancement - it's more protective. Remember that the PCs are special. Dex bonuses, lots of money to blow, etc. Remember also that NPCs are the opposite. Your average soldier is probably equipped by his lord, not to mention he has mundane stats. 8s, 9s, 10s, maybe a 12 here or there. Let's be liberal and make your average soldier's stats: Strength: 12 Dexterity: 12 Wisdom: 10 Intelligence: 9 Charisma: 9 Constitution: 10 Those are -really- good stats for your basic NPC soldier (1st level Warrior). Now let's compare the two kinds of armour Chain Shirt: +4 AC, 4 Max Dex, ACP -2, ASF 20%, Normal Speed Chainmail: +5 AC, 2 Max Dex, ACP -5, ASF 30%, 10-feet reduction in Speed Here's the comparison: ASF: Doesn't matter to a 1st level Warrior. He can't cast spells anyway. Max Dex: With either armour - it doesn't matter to him since his Dex is only 12. Speed: A reduction in speed doesn't matter either. In the press of combat, he's not going to be moving too far -anyway-, so moving 10 feet less in a round is fairly meaningless to him. ACP: Also meaningless. Your average soldier isn't going to be climbing mountains, swimming, or otherwise doing anything in his armour except for fighting. He's not an adventurer, he's a soldier - ACP means nothing to most soldiers. AC Bonus: Chainmail's is better. Winner: Chainmail. It has one point more AC bonus and that's all that matters to your average soldier. Now do the same comparison with a PC and you'll see that things change. An adventurer PC has to care about things like reduced movement, ACP, and Max Dex. But you have to remember that the average soldier just doesn't have any reason to care about these things. So for your average soldier.. chainmail is flat out better. Personally, though, I think chainmail should be a little better than it is.. maybe another point of AC bonus and a slightly higher Max Dex or something. Chainmail was very effective for a long time. But that is neither here nor there. Statistically, a 1st level Warrior is better off in chainmail than he is in a chain shirt.
tarkin 05-10-05, 05:00 PM	Also, not all "advancements" result in more effective items. Sometimes it takes more advanced knowledge to make something, but it is just cheaper.
Vahenir 05-10-05, 06:10 PM	Absolutely. Or, conversely, you have to 'advance' to something that's not as good as what you already had - in order to advance further itno something that's better. But in the case of mail shirt/mail hauberk.. the hauberk is by far superior (historically speaking).. it's just a shame that its stats don't reflect how good it was (I'm not saying it was the best armour -ever-, but it was, in my opinion, better than its stats seem to say).
Dire Celestial Bonobo 05-10-05, 08:14 PM	But in the case of mail shirt/mail hauberk.. the hauberk is by far superior (historically speaking).. it's just a shame that its stats don't reflect how good it was (I'm not saying it was the best armour -ever-, but it was, in my opinion, better than its stats seem to say). Was it better, or was a mail shirt worse? It seems like there's a very small different between light and medium armours, especially considering the significant increase in penalties. My intuition is that that's because D&D makes light armours better than they should be---is a simple chain shirt really twice as protective as a heavy shield?---but I can't say for sure. Thoughts?
Vahenir 05-10-05, 08:32 PM	I agree.. D&D puts too much emphasis on Light Armour. In my opinion - it shouldn't be as good as anything else.. it's not as protective, period. But then.. D&D's armour classifications are really.. really weird. Armour doesn't really slow you down very much. And the check penalties and Max Dex seem to lack any real logic to them. I imagine it's all a balance consideration. But if you want to get technical - light armour is way too good. I'd rather have a shield than a chain shirt. In D&D.. that's totally illogical for most characters. Aside from that.. the medium armour category pretty much sucks. It's all difficult to remedy, however, without messing with 'balance.'
IceFractal 05-11-05, 03:33 AM	AU has a pretty interesting armor setup. Not that realisic maybe, but there's a much wider spread of armors, going up to ones that provide significantly higher protection (and higher cost), than in D&D.
Thelon Fairblade 05-11-05, 08:55 AM	AU? Arcana Unearthed? Re: Chain Shirt vs Chainmail. I accept your arguments of reality. I was stating only the mechanics of the D&D armors. And I also valued the speed of the Chain Shirt over the +1 AC and 33% speed reduction of Chainmail. (I realize the DEX won't matter, although I humbly suggest that a human warrior might use the 13,12,11 array, like all humanoid warriors do in the MM.) All of you bring up some good points about "Advancement", though. I think what I really want to do is just use a new Armor Table for my campaign, rebalanced so each class of armors is worth the trade offs (and the proficiency to use them). I'm thinking Light Armor is +1 to +3, Medium is +3 (Hide) to +6 (Banded), and Heavy is +6 (splint) to +9 ("dwarven plate")....
Vahenir 05-11-05, 03:31 PM	although I humbly suggest that a human warrior might use the 13,12,11 array, like all humanoid warriors do in the MM.) Good point. Though, either way, it still becomes an issue of "Speed Reduction vs. Armour Bonus" - and for a simple soldier on the battlefield, I know what I'd choose. All of you bring up some good points about "Advancement", though. I think what I really want to do is just use a new Armor Table for my campaign, rebalanced so each class of armors is worth the trade offs (and the proficiency to use them). I'm thinking Light Armor is +1 to +3, Medium is +3 (Hide) to +6 (Banded), and Heavy is +6 (splint) to +9 ("dwarven plate").... It's an excellent goal, to be sure. But you might find it a tad difficult to make -all- the armour styles different in a system where they're all equally worth taking. For example, unless you make the Chain Shirt kind of suck, there's really no reason for anyone to choose studded leather. And so on. Have any ideas on how you plan to make all armour types good at once without having to nerf any of them?
Thelon Fairblade 05-12-05, 10:57 AM	In my not-thought-out plan, you would take Studded Leather because it is the "best" of the Light Armors (+3 AC). The Chain Shirt "slot" on the armor table would either be removed, or bumped up to Medium Armors. I'm even thinking of borrowing some ideas I gave to another DM's campaign, and having "armor templates" to apply generically. Specifically "shoddy/lowtech" and "excellent/highquality"... so generic Chainmail might be +5 AC, +2 max Dex, while "Shoddy Chainmail" would be +5 / +1, and "Excellent" would be +5/+3 (replacing the breastplate). Chainmail would be the "+5 AC" armor, period. barbarous hobgoblins making their lowtech chainmail from iron would have +5/+1 chainmail, and dwarven mastersmiths with special alloys would have +5/+3 chainmail... just as protective, but far more flexible. Just thoughts as I type them, though....
Silimaure 05-12-05, 03:30 PM	(I don't have the Arms & Equipment Guide, and I'd prefer not to purchase yet another supplement that I would rarely refer to. I thank you for the suggestion of existing rules, though... I will see if one of my players has it.) I wouldn't highly suggest a book unless I myself, along with many others I know, refer to this book quite often. Browse through it at a local gaming store, and see if you like it (which I think you will).