Post/Author/DateTime	Post
paulb104 12-23-07, 03:30 PM	Hey :) RE: armor Masterwork states mw items functions like the normal version, except that its armor check penalty is lessened by 1. Greater Masterwork states gmw armor function exactly like their normal versions except that their armor check penalties are reduced by 2. The gmw bonus does not stack with the masterwork bonus. Mithral states that armor made from mithral have their armor check penalty lessened by 3 (to a minimum of 0). Now to the question: Full plate has an armor check penalty of -10. Does Mithral full plate have an armor check penalty of -7 or -5? Thanks and Merry Holidays!
sapient 12-23-07, 04:05 PM	Well, a mithral armor have to be masterwork to begin with. So the masterwork-bonus is included in the benefit stated for mithral objects. That means a mihtral full plate has an ACP of 7 and counts as masterwork. Greater Masterwork are third party rules. I don't know about how it would work. You'll probably have to reference the rules you are using, since I understand that there are several different sources that offer different mechanics for it. .
Tema69 12-23-07, 04:23 PM	Well, since the mithral bonuses already include the Masterwork ACP reduction, Greater Masterwork would probably reduce it by an additional point. Thus, a Greater Masterwork Mithral Fullplate Armor would have an ACP of -6... Except that the Full Plate has an original ACP of -6 (look in the SRD), so it'd go from -6 to -2. Where did you find anything stating a -10 ACP? And where did you find the Greater Masterwork thing? ;)
paulb104 12-23-07, 06:40 PM	Well, since the mithral bonuses already include the Masterwork ACP reduction, Greater Masterwork would probably reduce it by an additional point.) The -10 was obviously an error. Full plate, -6, is at the bottom of the heavy armor list, whereas the tower shield, -10, is at the bottom of the shield list. I simply looked at the bottom of the wrong section of the list. I play a Living Campaign at cons called Legend of the Shining Jewel, and they have greater masterwork in the rules. I recall someone mentioning that thing itself is from Living Arcanis, which I do not play. Why would gmw reduce it by one point? Where is the mathematical justification? The original question should have been this: Full plate has an armor check penalty of -6. Does Mithral full plate have an armor check penalty of -3 or -1? Read another away, if mithral includes the bonus of masterwork, does mithral also include the bonus of greater masterwork? The more I read the last sentence, the more inclined I am to think that mithral includes the greater masterwork bonus (though I'd much rather have them both!)
dawnbringer 12-23-07, 06:43 PM	What book is greater masterwork from?
WhiteHarness 12-23-07, 07:14 PM	I like the Masterwork rules from one of the final print issues of Dragon magazine.
sapient 12-24-07, 12:25 AM	It does not include the effects of greater masterwork, if you ask for the official rules - since greater masterwork isn't part of the official rules. Only masterwork is, as stated before, necessarily part of a mithral full plate per tjhe WotC rules. Whether whatever third party rules you use, state that it is included in the mithral I cannot tell - but I would guess not. Partly because they are third party rules and as such would have to try to interface "gently" with the existing rules. Changeing the properties of existing stuff in the original rules without option would not be "gentle". Partly because, as I take if from googling the concept, most of the results hint that greater masterwork (in different forms from different companies) is used to add on different properties that are also not accessible in the original rules. It wouldn't make much sense to me, if you spent a lot of time and effort constructing such rules and then sort of "gave them away for free" by stating that they are included in the price for something that is already in the rules. .
Zog_Jakome 12-24-07, 01:15 AM	oh crap here comes someone who thinks someone is wrong. The way I do it is tack on the masterwork part on top of the mithral part. it says it is only included in the cost but it doesn't say it is included in the benefits of mithral. I do understand where you are coming from since mithral is always made masterwork it would make sense for them to include the masterwork bonus in the benefits of using mithral but it doesn't say they did. so your mithral full plate would have a -2 armor check penalty.
groveborn 12-24-07, 02:44 PM	oh crap here comes someone who thinks someone is wrong. The way I do it is tack on the masterwork part on top of the mithral part. it says it is only included in the cost but it doesn't say it is included in the benefits of mithral. I do understand where you are coming from since mithral is always made masterwork it would make sense for them to include the masterwork bonus in the benefits of using mithral but it doesn't say they did. so your mithral full plate would have a -2 armor check penalty. Mithral counts as masterwork, you need not add any further bonuses to your armor to account for it. If you wanted a Greater masterwork armor from mithral, you'd ask someone capable of creating it to do so. Normally, the mithral would simply be regular masterwork. Do no add more bonuses above and beyond what is mentioned in the DMG unless you're doing something special to it. Something for the poster I quoted: Your bunny is 3 feet high, has long ears and teeth. It eats vegetables and never eats meat. It counts as pink. Would you say the bunny is pink, or some other random color?
Zog_Jakome 12-25-07, 07:11 AM	Something for the poster I quoted: Your bunny is 3 feet high, has long ears and teeth. It eats vegetables and never eats meat. It counts as pink. Would you say the bunny is pink, or some other random color? what???
Axiomatic_vampire 12-26-07, 01:49 AM	I find the bunny question...disturbing.