Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Squidmaster 09-23-05, 03:10 PM	I'm running an ancient-styled game with several cultures (Egyptian, Norse-but-ancient, Celtic, and an elven culture in-line with D&D standard but tweaked a bit to fit with the others), and have made a few tweaks. Fighters lose heavy armor and tower shield proficiencies and gain combat expertise instead plus improved use of a spear, which at the moment could take two forms. My current ruling is that fighters add 1 to the threat range of the shortspear, which puts it on par with other martial weapons, having a smaller damage range, equal crit range, throwing range, and the setting against charge quality. Alternatively, I could rule that the spear could be used one-handed, which would be more on par with an exotic weapon. What seems fair to you? I also have compiled a weapon list for my game that I'll list here for comments. You'll need a few notes here... Egyptian realm = Atepesh (humans and dwarves) Norse realm = Halmland (dwarves) Celtic realm = Tuireadh (humans) Elven realm = not named in my weapon list, but clearly elven sounding weapons fit that realm. I think you'll know which ones. Simple Weapons Light Melee Weapons Cestus (spiked gauntlet) Dagger Mace, light One-Handed Melee Weapons Club Mace, heavy Shortspear Two-Handed Melee Weapons Quarterstaff Spear Longspear Ranged Weapons Dart Javelin Sling Martial Weapons Light Melee Weapons Axe, throwing (Halmland and Tuireadh) Hammer, light (Halmland) Handaxe Pick, light (light piercing axe in Atepesh) Sap Shield, light Sword, short One-Handed Melee Weapons Battleaxe Leafblade (rapier) Flail (Atepesh) Longsword Pick, heavy (heavy piercing axe in Atepesh) Shield, heavy Warhammer (Halmland) Two-Handed Melee Weapons Flail, heavy (Atepesh) Greataxe (piercing or slashing in Atepesh, slashing only north) Greatclub Greatsword (Halmland, Tuireadh) ?? Ranged Weapons Longbow, elven (1d8, 19-20/x2, 110 ft.) Shortbow Shortbow, elven (1d6, 19-20/x2, 70 ft.) Shortbow, composite * all bows may be built to account for strength ratings * Exotic Weapons Light Melee Weapons Lightblade, elven One-Handed Melee Weapons Maul (Halmland, Tuireadh) Khopesh (Atepesh only, 1d8, 19-20/x2, may make trip attacks) Thinblade, elven Urgrosh Waraxe, dwarven Warmace Warpick, Halmar Two-Handed Melee Weapons Axe, orc double Falx (Tuireadh, 2d6, x4) Ranged Weapons Skiprock, halfling Throwing stick, Atepeshite (1d4, x2, 20ft.) Warbow, elven (1d8, 18-20/x2, 110 ft.) Warsling, halfling As you can see, I wanted to preserve a sense of the time period but also allow for some fantasy elements. I didn't feel like the longspear would fit the time period all that well, but realized my list was very short on reach weapons. Thoughts? Should the falx be one or two handed? Should I include a greatsword at all? I know it wouldn't exist per se, but it fits the theme of the Celtic or Nordic folk I think. I'd love better names for the lightblade and thinblade that fit an elven natural theme (like my leafblade) I'm also considering changing the stats on the composite shortbow to increase damage and possibly range to match the longbow. Otherwise the elves may have to great of an archery advantage. What do you think? Any comments or suggestions are welcome. Thanks!
Tony Vargas 09-23-05, 04:17 PM	Fighters lose heavy armor and tower shield proficiencies Ancients used some pretty huge shields. and gain combat expertise instead plus improved use of a spear, which at the moment could take two forms. My current ruling is that fighters add 1 to the threat range of the shortspear, Alternatively, I could rule that the spear could be used one-handed, which would be more on par with an exotic weapon. The spear and shortspear are already on par with martial weapons. One-handed spear use would be very apropriate, though. Reducing the crit multiplier (basically making it a trident) would be reasonable, or simply removing the throwing range would work. I didn't feel like the longspear would fit the time period all that well, but realized my list was very short on reach weapons. Thoughts?The longspear is very apropriate. Spears were heavily used, and some of them, like the sarissa, got very long indeed. The longspear is balanced as a simple weapon (because it can't be thrown, unlike the spear), and allowing it to be used one-handed as an exotic weapon, or (with a reduced crit) as a martial one would not be unreasonable. Alternately, you could add a feat that allowed a fighter to use a longspear two-handed in conjunction with a light shield (a light shield normally just lets you hold an item, not wield a weapon) or buckler (though D&D bucklers probably didn't exist) while retaining the shield's AC bonus. Should the falx be one or two handed? Should I include a greatsword at all? The falx could be larger or smaller, so either is possible. x3 crit would probably be fine for it, though. The D&D greatsword would be pretty inapropriate to the period. I know it wouldn't exist per se, but it fits the theme of the Celtic or Nordic folk I think. A 'long' or 'broad' sword would be about as far as I'd go with that.
Squidmaster 09-23-05, 05:42 PM	I'm not convinced the spears are on par with martial weapons as written. After all, they're classified as simple, and the stats reflect that. They do gain a bit more flexibility than some other simple weapons, but stat for stat they still don't totally equate for most folks in my book. My two options essentially give the spear punch on two different levels. My questions regarding which to choose have more to do with which balances better with the armor restriction and lack of the tower shield. Your point about shields is of course a good one. I know the Egyptians had no tower shields, but a case could be made for the Celtic shield being a tower shield. I already have one area retaining the tower shield and losing the spear bonuses, so I might do it with the Celtic region as well. Greatsword - yeah, you're totally right on that. The falx could replace the greatsword statwise probably, but I felt that an exotic weapon was not out of the question, and the nature of the falx lends well to an increased critical damage multiplier. If you think about it, most increased multiplier weapons translate into real-world weapons with armor breaching ability, and the falx certainly had that. What I could do is stat the falx thusly: 1d8/x4, one handed with exotic feat, two-handed without. What do you think? I realize the longspear fits for a greek setting or later, but mine is somewhat earlier than that, minus the cultural clashes I've created of course. I don't recall any mention of longspears in Egyptian times at all for instance, and I don't believe the longspear is really a signature of the Celts or Norse either. That said, my game is certainly not intended to be 100% historically accurate.
ScipioX 09-23-05, 06:11 PM	Looks interesting. Might want to remove composite bows though. Not positive, but pretty sure those were not around in the ancient era. Earliest I've heard of them was the Mongols.
Tony Vargas 09-23-05, 06:36 PM	I'm not convinced the spears are on par with martial weapons as written. They are 'by the numbers' - that is, reverse engineering the weapon tables. You may have heard this before, but... If you compare some of the one-handed martial weapons, say the hand ax, throwing ax, & light hammer, you can tell that 10' or range increment is valued equal to a +x1 crit, to a +1 average damage. The Trident, and, indeed, all the one-handed martial weapons fit these numbers. If you compare the trident to the shortspear, it has +1 avg damage, and 10' less range - it's numericaly balanced with the shortspear, and with other martial weapons. Same goes for the spear - it's damage, crit and throwing range add up to the equivalent of a martial weapon. For that matter, the same is true of the dagger, FWTW. My questions regarding which to choose have more to do with which balances better with the armor restriction and lack of the tower shield.Allowing the spear one-handed, which would encourage the use of shields, and thus tend to help make up for the lack of heavy armor, would probably be the better choice by that criterion. Even if you couldn't throw it at all, a one-handed spear would be the equal of other one-handed melee-only weapons. If you think about it, most increased multiplier weapons translate into real-world weapons with armor breaching ability, and the falx certainly had that. True (and to a small extent, it even works out, mechanically - if your chances of hitting are poor, high crit multipliers work a little better than broad threat ranges), but the falx would probably closer to an an axe (x3) than a pick (x4), in that sense. What I could do is stat the falx thusly: 1d8/x4, one handed with exotic feat, two-handed without. What do you think?That actually looks pretty good. I realize the longspear fits for a greek setting or later, but mine is somewhat earlier than that, minus the cultural clashes I've created of course. I don't recall any mention of longspears in Egyptian times at all for instance, and I don't believe the longspear is really a signature of the Celts or Norse either. That said, my game is certainly not intended to be 100% historically accurate. Spears were used in virtually every culture, and often for the reach advantage. A 'longspear' in your setting might not have to be as long as a 'longspear' (pike) in a setting where it has to compete with the reach of long-bladed greatswords and the like.
NeueRegel 09-23-05, 06:54 PM	What a total kick-in-the-butt. For the first time, in my year of playing 3.5 (and first D&D since AD&D, years ago), somebody actually posts about the falx; after a curious google-image search, I finally understand exactly what the designers meant by calling the two-handed scimitar a "falchion". Falx sounding like falch... but the designers prolly decided that "falx" would sound too much like a cuss word, to younger players or listening parents. Right when I found out that I'll never get to play the game again. :( Falx!
Squidmaster 09-23-05, 09:53 PM	Ha, that is an interesting theory about the falx compared to the falchion. That could well be it, though we'll never know for sure of course. If you compare some of the one-handed martial weapons, say the hand ax, throwing ax, & light hammer, you can tell that 10' or range increment is valued equal to a +x1 crit, to a +1 average damage. The Trident, and, indeed, all the one-handed martial weapons fit these numbers. If you compare the trident to the shortspear, it has +1 avg damage, and 10' less range - it's numericaly balanced with the shortspear, and with other martial weapons. Same goes for the spear - it's damage, crit and throwing range add up to the equivalent of a martial weapon. For that matter, the same is true of the dagger, FWTW. Yes, you're absolutely right about this, but I think the range issues usually have less impact than critical ranges or damage, particularly when it comes to a weapon that only gets thrown some of the time. You can only carry so many spears, so that extra 10' of range is probably not as big a deal to you as an extra point or two of damage. I also think some of the simple weapons were slapped together with slightly less thought regarding balance. They're all "close enough" in that sense, and I actually think they're basically right. I'll also point you to a conversation I had on Sean's boards with Mr. Reynolds. I hadn't thought of it before my post, but I think he's right that justifying a martial weapon version of a spear doesn't make a great deal of sense. That's why I'm leaning toward feats to improve spear use. http://p082.ezboard.com/fseankreynoldsboardsfrm21.showMessage?to picID=82.topic Allowing the spear one-handed, which would encourage the use of shields, and thus tend to help make up for the lack of heavy armor, would probably be the better choice by that criterion. Even if you couldn't throw it at all, a one-handed spear would be the equal of other one-handed melee-only weapons. I think I may have described what my plans are poorly as to this issue. Both of my options deal with using spears one-handed. It's just that one beefs up the shortspear by increasing the crit multiplier, and the other allows the normal spear to be used one handed, which is the more powerful of the two options. It works out thusly: beefed-up shortspear: 1d6/x3 with 20' range one-handed spear: 1d8/x3 with 20' range. Option two is clearly superior to option one, but maybe not to a degree that is imbalancing given the armor restrictions. It's the difference between a martial and exotic weapon proficiency to me, and both wind up with a similar type result flavor-wise. I'll keep the longspear. You make a good argument about the variability of that, and besides, a reach weapon could be an issue for people at some point. I'm also increasingly liking the idea of giving the celtic people the tower shield instead of the spear enhancements, and I plan to allow the tower shield to bash just like a heavy shield. You had to be able to bash with those big legionary-type shields, right? I can't imagine this would cause any balance issues. Looks interesting. Might want to remove composite bows though. Not positive, but pretty sure those were not around in the ancient era. Earliest I've heard of them was the Mongols. Composite bows were around in Egyptian times. I *believe* they actually had different strengths in combat, but don't quote me on that part. I do know that some pharaohs took pride in their ability to use the old style, non-composite bows, as they took greater skill and strength to use properly. Now, here's a new question... Players will have the option to play chariot-warriors in my game, but the lance is clearly inappropriate for the era. Should I allow spears to multiply charging damage when used from a chariot? I am not certain what I want to do here, because the real "punch" of cavalry didn't come into play until somewhat later (particularly with stirrups, but to a degree before their advent.) I know some versions of chariots acted in that capacity, but it might be the trampling ability that provides the punch, not increased weapon damage. Given that the spirited charge feat will be available for chariot-riders, should I also tweak the spear to allow an extra multiplier? I also intend to rule that a weapon may be dropped into an accessible place in a chariot for later use, which would allow those with quick draw to switch between a melee weapon and a bow, which I think makes up for the weaknesses of chariot turning rates. Make sense? Any weapons I should add to my list, exotic or not? Any I should clearly remove? I realize I forgot to include whip on this list, and that should obviously be available. Not whip dagger, just whip.
Squidmaster 09-24-05, 04:48 PM	I may as well tack my armor list on here too and see what anyone has to say about it. If an armor type has no region next to it, that means it applies to all the regions not already tackled on that line. Light Armor +2 AC: Banded Leather (Atepesh), Leafweave (Tanglewood Forest), Leather +3 AC: Rawhide Scale (Atepesh), Embossed Leafweave (Tanglewood Forest), Studded leather Medium Armor +3 AC: Hide (not available in the Tanglewood Forest) +4 AC: Composite Scale +5 AC: Scale All types of shields will be available (not sure about spikes though), with tower shields only employed by the Upper Atepeshite dwarves and the Tuireadhans. Of course, characters may take feats to learn the use of a tower shield when appropriate.