Arrow Enchantments [Archive] - Wizards Community

Arrow Enchantments [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ClementWillowbreaker
04-15-06, 10:04 PM So I was thinking about magical ammunition, and looking careful at weapon special ability properties, and I came across a number of abilities that either say they can be placed on ranged weapons/make no mention of specific weapons, and don't have the magical, "...bestow this property on their ammunition" tag at the end. So what are your thoughts about placing them on arrows?

DMG
Distance (obviously ranged, but valid for ammo?)
Ghost Touch (doesn't work directly on bow, like Brilliant Energy)
Keen
Seeking (obviously ranged, but valid for ammo?)
Speed (requiring all arrows that round to function?)
Spell-storing

CW
Disarming
Bloodseeking (obviously ranged, but valid for ammo?)

CV
Deadly Precision
risner
04-15-06, 11:02 PM Other than arrows are always destroyed when they hit and 50 percent of the time when they miss?
draconic_swine
04-16-06, 11:50 AM Distance, ghost touch, keen, seeking, and spell storing I see absolutely no problem in placing them on ammunition. I wouldn't allow speed. I don't know exactly what the others do, but if their names relate to their functions (which is likely), they sound like they would be fine on ammunition as well.

A quick look through the properties shows the "bestow this property on their ammunition" line seems to be added to abilities that increase damage dealt, such as shocking or holy. I don't take this line to mean that only these abilities are able to be added to ammunition (and not other ranged special abilities), but to mean that a shocking longbow can't be used in a melee attack to deal electricity damage.
Rulebook
04-16-06, 04:41 PM okay, firstly, spell storing CANT be placed on a ranged weapon.

nice try in getting the board to admit do it so you can use it!
ClementWillowbreaker
04-16-06, 09:18 PM First of all, Rulebook, screw you. Second, I'm the DM. Spell-storing doesn't say one way or the other, like a lot of abilities. I know it does not appear on the random ranged-weapon chart, but neither do a lot of abilities. Third, if you would care to articulate yourself, I would gladly listen to why you think it cannot be placed on ranged weapons/arrows.
Mitchell
04-17-06, 02:46 AM First of all, Rulebook, screw you. Second, I'm the DM. Spell-storing doesn't say one way or the other, like a lot of abilities. I know it does not appear on the random ranged-weapon chart, but neither do a lot of abilities. Third, if you would care to articulate yourself, I would gladly listen to why you think it cannot be placed on ranged weapons/arrows.

I love it when someone comes on, asks a question, and gets all bent out of shape if they read an answer that they don't like.
On to the point.

From the SRD:
Spell Storing: A spell storing weapon allows a spellcaster to store a single targeted spell of up to 3rd level in the weapon. (The spell must have a casting time of 1 standard action.) Any time the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature as a free action if the wielder desires. (This special ability is an exception to the general rule that casting a spell from an item takes at least as long as casting that spell normally.) Once the spell has been cast from the weapon, a spellcaster can cast any other targeted spell of up to 3rd level into it. The weapon magically imparts to the wielder the name of the spell currently stored within it. A randomly rolled spell storing weapon has a 50% chance to have a spell stored in it already.

Strong evocation (plus aura of stored spell); CL 12th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, creator must be a caster of at least 12th level; Price +1 bonus.

You don't wield ranged weapons. You stop wielding them when you let go of them.
RaspK FOG
04-17-06, 03:46 AM You don't wield ranged weapons. You stop wielding them when you let go of them.
Just so that someone does not try to dilute your point, you meant ammunition for projectile weapons; but, yes, your assessment is correct.
mvincent
04-17-06, 01:57 PM okay, firstly, spell storing CANT be placed on a ranged weapon.You appear to be incorrect: spell-storing can certainly be placed on say, a dagger, and a dagger can be used as a ranged weapon.
mvincent
04-17-06, 02:03 PM You don't wield ranged weapons. You stop wielding them when you let go of them.I agree. However it is still within reason to interpret the line as simply being generic, rather than specifically intended to disallow say, a spell-storing dagger from functioning if thrown.

Again, you are correct: a literal interpretion would disallow it, and that is probably even recommended for most play balance reasons, but a DM could still reasonably rule that thrown spell-storing daggers work.
mvincent
04-17-06, 02:08 PM Just so that someone does not try to dilute your point, you meant ammunition for projectile weaponsIn regard to the text he is quoting, how is that different from thrown weapons? (Or were your referring merely to the wielding of a bow when an arrow is launched, in which case I see your point).
mvincent
04-17-06, 02:15 PM I know it does not appear on the random ranged-weapon chart, but neither do a lot of abilities.Correct. The random weapon charts are not exhaustive. Example: the throwing axe is listed as a melee weapon on the equipment table, but as a ranged weapon on the random magic weapon charts. The latter fact does not prevent normal melee enhancements from being placed on the throwing axe.
ClementWillowbreaker
04-17-06, 02:21 PM I love it when someone comes on, asks a question, and gets all bent out of shape if they read an answer that they don't like.
On to the point.

I'm not bent out of shape because he "disagreed." He can't disagree with me, because I posted this thread because I don't have a clear opinion on any of them being applied to ammunition. I am "bent out of shape" because he implied that I posted in order to get a stupid DM to see the board saying, "spell-storing arrows are ok", so he would allow me to use them in a game. I know a number of people consider it abusive, like apparently Rulebook. Balance isn't my immediate concern, but what the rules actually are, so I know when I am changing them to be balanced.
tarkin
04-17-06, 02:27 PM The problems with Spell storing on ammo are many.

Spell Storing works fine for a bow, but it incredibally abusive for ammunition. The key thing is that only one spell may be stored in the bow at a time, while you could store 50 spells in 50 arrows for the same price.

A simple comparison of pricing for 50 3rd level potion and 50 +1 spell storing Arrows shows it to be ridiculous. This is even WITHOUT considering the ability to fire 2,3,4, or even 5 arrows a round. 3 Fireballs a round is NASTY NASTY NASTY.

Yes, the DMG does not make it obvious that it illegal to apply to arrows. That is because ALL the core books are written poorly. Their grammer sucks.

D20 is nice because of the IDEAS behind it, not the actual words used.

If you play in a game that allows Spell Storing arrows, then there is NO reason to ever:

1) Play a melee attacker
2) Use any arrow enchantment except Spell Storing
3) worry about being killed by monsters that can't use arrows. You will kill them before they get close enough to hit you.

So go ahead, think that it is OK to make spell storing arrows. But you will be laughed at by any DM that has thought about it for more than a couple of seconds.
Keenath
04-17-06, 02:35 PM I personally wouldn't allow spell storing arrows; the intent of the thing seems to be that when you make a hit, you can "will" it to release the stored spell. If you aren't touching it, seems like you couldn't really will it.

With a dagger or somesuch, well... if you throw it, you can't trigger the spell, that's all... And remember that you can nonproficiently throw ANY weapon.

That's just how I read it, with the concept I have of "weilder". YMMV. As far as I see it, you wield a bow or a sling or a sword, but not an arrow or a sling-stone or whatever. Unless you're using an arrow as an improvised weapon, but still...
mvincent
04-17-06, 02:44 PM I would gladly listen to why you think it cannot be placed on ranged weapons/arrows.As mentioned, there is the wielding issue (which is still subject to some interpretation though). Also, there is a balance issue. Spell-storing ammunition would be very inexpensive compared to other one-shot items, and are considerably more powerful than comparatively priced magical ammo.

However, in my own longer running games I've found that magical ammo and some other expendables can be far too expensive (for what they give you) to use on a regular basis. Archers with multiple attacks can easily deplete huge amounts of their wealth every single session with only slight combat benefits... eventually handicapping themselves severely in regard to gear as the campaign progresses.

In such games, I allowed spell-storing arrows and encountered few balance problems. In fact, the archers still avoided using them because they knew it would later make them behind the other players in wealth.
narukagami
04-17-06, 02:45 PM I've allowed spell storing ammo in my games, but with some major considerations.
I made their cost to make and market price apply to a single, individual arrow, not a batch of 50. Thus making them a rare and expensive thing because few are willing to make them, and even fewer are willing to just fire them off willy-nilly.

Even if its not mechanically balanced, the fact they cost thousands of gold pieces per arrow in my game makes the party archer think twice before pulling one out of his quiver.
ClementWillowbreaker
04-17-06, 02:50 PM Ok, spell-storing is definitely becoming a hassle, and a lot to think about. But for scope in impact, I would interested in opinions on the other eight abilities I listed. Thoughts on those?
mvincent
04-17-06, 03:28 PM So go ahead, think that it is OK to make spell storing arrows. But you will be laughed at by any DM that has thought about it for more than a couple of seconds.That sounds a bit rude (and is evidently incorrect, as I know several DM's that are not laughing). But still, let's think about it for more than a few seconds (I'm almost certain I've discussed this with you before though).

Spell storing arrows cost 160 gp each (8,000 for 50), not including the cost of the spells being put in them (we'll assume that you have a spell-caster ally and a lot of downtime).

A midlevel (say 10th) archer will be firing about 3-4 arrows a round, and each combat lasts maybe 3 rounds (let's say 10 arrows). You generally have 10 such encounters per level, so that is about 16,000 gp in arrows each level... to defeat things which you are normally expected to defeat anyway. That can often be more than you'll expect to earn each level, and can be crippling in the long term.

Also, many view archers as unpowered anyway (compared to the damage an optimized melee build can dish out). Additionally, the types of spells than can be put into a spell-storing weapon is fairly limited: cause serious wounds seems to be the best (3d8+7... decent, but similar in damage to most melee builds), and it still allows for spell-resistance and a saving throw, and isn't useful on undead.

That said, I still agree that they are likely too powerful, but even a balanced minded DM that wants to introduce a few nifty arrows (like healing arrows, capture arrows, love arrows, etc.) at least has an option to do so via the core rules.
mvincent
04-17-06, 03:35 PM for scope in impact, I would interested in opinions on the other eight abilities I listed. Thoughts on those?Those seem fine to me.
Mitchell
04-18-06, 12:46 AM Oh yeah, the others seem pretty okay.
I'm sort of in the same place you are. I'm not hard-core RAW is LAW or anything, but I do like to know what the rules are before I break them. :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ClementWillowbreaker 04-15-06, 10:04 PM	So I was thinking about magical ammunition, and looking careful at weapon special ability properties, and I came across a number of abilities that either say they can be placed on ranged weapons/make no mention of specific weapons, and don't have the magical, "...bestow this property on their ammunition" tag at the end. So what are your thoughts about placing them on arrows? DMG Distance (obviously ranged, but valid for ammo?) Ghost Touch (doesn't work directly on bow, like Brilliant Energy) Keen Seeking (obviously ranged, but valid for ammo?) Speed (requiring all arrows that round to function?) Spell-storing CW Disarming Bloodseeking (obviously ranged, but valid for ammo?) CV Deadly Precision
risner 04-15-06, 11:02 PM	Other than arrows are always destroyed when they hit and 50 percent of the time when they miss?
draconic_swine 04-16-06, 11:50 AM	Distance, ghost touch, keen, seeking, and spell storing I see absolutely no problem in placing them on ammunition. I wouldn't allow speed. I don't know exactly what the others do, but if their names relate to their functions (which is likely), they sound like they would be fine on ammunition as well. A quick look through the properties shows the "bestow this property on their ammunition" line seems to be added to abilities that increase damage dealt, such as shocking or holy. I don't take this line to mean that only these abilities are able to be added to ammunition (and not other ranged special abilities), but to mean that a shocking longbow can't be used in a melee attack to deal electricity damage.
Rulebook 04-16-06, 04:41 PM	okay, firstly, spell storing CANT be placed on a ranged weapon. nice try in getting the board to admit do it so you can use it!
ClementWillowbreaker 04-16-06, 09:18 PM	First of all, Rulebook, screw you. Second, I'm the DM. Spell-storing doesn't say one way or the other, like a lot of abilities. I know it does not appear on the random ranged-weapon chart, but neither do a lot of abilities. Third, if you would care to articulate yourself, I would gladly listen to why you think it cannot be placed on ranged weapons/arrows.
Mitchell 04-17-06, 02:46 AM	First of all, Rulebook, screw you. Second, I'm the DM. Spell-storing doesn't say one way or the other, like a lot of abilities. I know it does not appear on the random ranged-weapon chart, but neither do a lot of abilities. Third, if you would care to articulate yourself, I would gladly listen to why you think it cannot be placed on ranged weapons/arrows. I love it when someone comes on, asks a question, and gets all bent out of shape if they read an answer that they don't like. On to the point. From the SRD: Spell Storing: A spell storing weapon allows a spellcaster to store a single targeted spell of up to 3rd level in the weapon. (The spell must have a casting time of 1 standard action.) Any time the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature as a free action if the wielder desires. (This special ability is an exception to the general rule that casting a spell from an item takes at least as long as casting that spell normally.) Once the spell has been cast from the weapon, a spellcaster can cast any other targeted spell of up to 3rd level into it. The weapon magically imparts to the wielder the name of the spell currently stored within it. A randomly rolled spell storing weapon has a 50% chance to have a spell stored in it already. Strong evocation (plus aura of stored spell); CL 12th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, creator must be a caster of at least 12th level; Price +1 bonus. You don't wield ranged weapons. You stop wielding them when you let go of them.
RaspK FOG 04-17-06, 03:46 AM	You don't wield ranged weapons. You stop wielding them when you let go of them. Just so that someone does not try to dilute your point, you meant ammunition for projectile weapons; but, yes, your assessment is correct.
mvincent 04-17-06, 01:57 PM	okay, firstly, spell storing CANT be placed on a ranged weapon.You appear to be incorrect: spell-storing can certainly be placed on say, a dagger, and a dagger can be used as a ranged weapon.
mvincent 04-17-06, 02:03 PM	You don't wield ranged weapons. You stop wielding them when you let go of them.I agree. However it is still within reason to interpret the line as simply being generic, rather than specifically intended to disallow say, a spell-storing dagger from functioning if thrown. Again, you are correct: a literal interpretion would disallow it, and that is probably even recommended for most play balance reasons, but a DM could still reasonably rule that thrown spell-storing daggers work.
mvincent 04-17-06, 02:08 PM	Just so that someone does not try to dilute your point, you meant ammunition for projectile weaponsIn regard to the text he is quoting, how is that different from thrown weapons? (Or were your referring merely to the wielding of a bow when an arrow is launched, in which case I see your point).
mvincent 04-17-06, 02:15 PM	I know it does not appear on the random ranged-weapon chart, but neither do a lot of abilities.Correct. The random weapon charts are not exhaustive. Example: the throwing axe is listed as a melee weapon on the equipment table, but as a ranged weapon on the random magic weapon charts. The latter fact does not prevent normal melee enhancements from being placed on the throwing axe.
ClementWillowbreaker 04-17-06, 02:21 PM	I love it when someone comes on, asks a question, and gets all bent out of shape if they read an answer that they don't like. On to the point. I'm not bent out of shape because he "disagreed." He can't disagree with me, because I posted this thread because I don't have a clear opinion on any of them being applied to ammunition. I am "bent out of shape" because he implied that I posted in order to get a stupid DM to see the board saying, "spell-storing arrows are ok", so he would allow me to use them in a game. I know a number of people consider it abusive, like apparently Rulebook. Balance isn't my immediate concern, but what the rules actually are, so I know when I am changing them to be balanced.
tarkin 04-17-06, 02:27 PM	The problems with Spell storing on ammo are many. Spell Storing works fine for a bow, but it incredibally abusive for ammunition. The key thing is that only one spell may be stored in the bow at a time, while you could store 50 spells in 50 arrows for the same price. A simple comparison of pricing for 50 3rd level potion and 50 +1 spell storing Arrows shows it to be ridiculous. This is even WITHOUT considering the ability to fire 2,3,4, or even 5 arrows a round. 3 Fireballs a round is NASTY NASTY NASTY. Yes, the DMG does not make it obvious that it illegal to apply to arrows. That is because ALL the core books are written poorly. Their grammer sucks. D20 is nice because of the IDEAS behind it, not the actual words used. If you play in a game that allows Spell Storing arrows, then there is NO reason to ever: 1) Play a melee attacker 2) Use any arrow enchantment except Spell Storing 3) worry about being killed by monsters that can't use arrows. You will kill them before they get close enough to hit you. So go ahead, think that it is OK to make spell storing arrows. But you will be laughed at by any DM that has thought about it for more than a couple of seconds.
Keenath 04-17-06, 02:35 PM	I personally wouldn't allow spell storing arrows; the intent of the thing seems to be that when you make a hit, you can "will" it to release the stored spell. If you aren't touching it, seems like you couldn't really will it. With a dagger or somesuch, well... if you throw it, you can't trigger the spell, that's all... And remember that you can nonproficiently throw ANY weapon. That's just how I read it, with the concept I have of "weilder". YMMV. As far as I see it, you wield a bow or a sling or a sword, but not an arrow or a sling-stone or whatever. Unless you're using an arrow as an improvised weapon, but still...
mvincent 04-17-06, 02:44 PM	I would gladly listen to why you think it cannot be placed on ranged weapons/arrows.As mentioned, there is the wielding issue (which is still subject to some interpretation though). Also, there is a balance issue. Spell-storing ammunition would be very inexpensive compared to other one-shot items, and are considerably more powerful than comparatively priced magical ammo. However, in my own longer running games I've found that magical ammo and some other expendables can be far too expensive (for what they give you) to use on a regular basis. Archers with multiple attacks can easily deplete huge amounts of their wealth every single session with only slight combat benefits... eventually handicapping themselves severely in regard to gear as the campaign progresses. In such games, I allowed spell-storing arrows and encountered few balance problems. In fact, the archers still avoided using them because they knew it would later make them behind the other players in wealth.
narukagami 04-17-06, 02:45 PM	I've allowed spell storing ammo in my games, but with some major considerations. I made their cost to make and market price apply to a single, individual arrow, not a batch of 50. Thus making them a rare and expensive thing because few are willing to make them, and even fewer are willing to just fire them off willy-nilly. Even if its not mechanically balanced, the fact they cost thousands of gold pieces per arrow in my game makes the party archer think twice before pulling one out of his quiver.
ClementWillowbreaker 04-17-06, 02:50 PM	Ok, spell-storing is definitely becoming a hassle, and a lot to think about. But for scope in impact, I would interested in opinions on the other eight abilities I listed. Thoughts on those?
mvincent 04-17-06, 03:28 PM	So go ahead, think that it is OK to make spell storing arrows. But you will be laughed at by any DM that has thought about it for more than a couple of seconds.That sounds a bit rude (and is evidently incorrect, as I know several DM's that are not laughing). But still, let's think about it for more than a few seconds (I'm almost certain I've discussed this with you before though). Spell storing arrows cost 160 gp each (8,000 for 50), not including the cost of the spells being put in them (we'll assume that you have a spell-caster ally and a lot of downtime). A midlevel (say 10th) archer will be firing about 3-4 arrows a round, and each combat lasts maybe 3 rounds (let's say 10 arrows). You generally have 10 such encounters per level, so that is about 16,000 gp in arrows each level... to defeat things which you are normally expected to defeat anyway. That can often be more than you'll expect to earn each level, and can be crippling in the long term. Also, many view archers as unpowered anyway (compared to the damage an optimized melee build can dish out). Additionally, the types of spells than can be put into a spell-storing weapon is fairly limited: cause serious wounds seems to be the best (3d8+7... decent, but similar in damage to most melee builds), and it still allows for spell-resistance and a saving throw, and isn't useful on undead. That said, I still agree that they are likely too powerful, but even a balanced minded DM that wants to introduce a few nifty arrows (like healing arrows, capture arrows, love arrows, etc.) at least has an option to do so via the core rules.
mvincent 04-17-06, 03:35 PM	for scope in impact, I would interested in opinions on the other eight abilities I listed. Thoughts on those?Those seem fine to me.
Mitchell 04-18-06, 12:46 AM	Oh yeah, the others seem pretty okay. I'm sort of in the same place you are. I'm not hard-core RAW is LAW or anything, but I do like to know what the rules are before I break them. :)