Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Timzc1 11-06-06, 03:12 AM	Hello all: Some help: 1. I would like a ranger character of mine to craft some arrows that I have never heard of in the game. They would be "armour piercing" arrows. I was thinking the craft DC and the cost would be the same as master work arrows, but instead of them having an all round +1 to hit, these arrows would have the effect of reducing a target's armour bonus (or thing's hardness) by 2. I thought such an invention might be intriguing and, story-wise, plausible. Also, the idea could be extended: perhaps, for more cost and a higher craft DC, the arrow's effect could be to reduce the target's armour bonus by 3 or even more (perhaps). 2. The DMG has rules for spending a full round action for "taking aim" at an unmoving target--and receiving a bonus to hit the object on the following round. does / could there exist a feat that could permit character's to sacrifice quantity of arrows for an accurate shot? let's call the feat "Snipe". e.g. spend a move action "aiming" and then a a standard action to fire the shot, and, say receive some kind of bonus to hit the target (say a flat +4 bonus, or perhaps a bonus = to 1/2 one's base attack bonus) obviously some pre-requisites for the snipe feat would exist (PBshot, precise shot jump to mind). Thanks in advance, --tc
Watchman 11-06-06, 03:21 AM	If the game-world has armour around, then it'll also have had specialized arrowheads designed to defeat that armour around for almost as long. I'd say that's abstracted to the MW arrow mechanic, myself - consider that to represent having a good arrow for every situation, as most archers actually sought to.
Timzc1 11-06-06, 03:32 AM	ty for the reply... I see your logic... is what you are saying, then, that my idea is not a good one? that it is not 'balanced'? or just MW arrows ARE what I am talking about...? is there a way to make it balanced? (e.g. perhaps the price is higher, and/or the craft DC is higher and or other limitations?) --tc
Watchman 11-06-06, 03:49 AM	I figure D&D has way too much gear already, and MW missiles can be considered to cover what you're looking for (plus a couple of other related aspects) as is. More to the point, introducing the concept of "armour piercing" would really be opening a troublesome can of worms as quite a few melee weapons - starting with the humble maces - were notoriously good at that...
runestar 11-06-06, 04:10 AM	Armour piercing arrows? Try the brilliant energy weapon enhancement...:D
Timzc1 11-06-06, 04:13 AM	no magic, though... I want something that craft could produce... --tc
tarkin 11-06-06, 12:06 PM	Non-magical eh? Well, looks at real world. Real world, there are armor piercing ammo. Usually they do less damage then regular ammo, because they deform less. I.E. Armor piercing bullets go in straight like a needle, while regular bullets deform into a mushroom, doing more damage, but not going through the armor. (Note, there is special advance bullets that go in like a needle then explode, but that is higher tech) ---------------- You could use this basic relationship and make "armor piercing arrows" Masterwork items that are +2 to hit against someone that has an armor bonus to AC, but -2 to damage, minimum of 1 point of damage done. Price them at say 400 gp/50 = 8 gp/arrow.
draconic_swine 11-06-06, 04:35 PM	Your idea of armour-piercing arrows that cost the same as masterwork arrows but ignore 2 points of AC rather than gaining a straight +1 to attack is interesting, but maybe just slightly overpowered. What you're suggesting is essentially double the attack bonus for the same price. That this only affects armoured targets is pretty much a moot point, since if you had the choice you wouldn't use them against non-armoured targets anyway. I like Tarkin's idea, but personally I'd drop the damage dice down one instead of making it a straight -2 to damage. As to your Sniper feat idea, I think taking a full round to aim and gain a +4 bonus to attack on your next shot is a pretty good idea. I would definitely make it a flat +4 instead of half your BAB, since there's not much (if anything) that changes based on your BAB, AFAIK. I'd make only Point Blank Shot a prerequisite; this is fairly comprable to feinting.
Timzc1 11-06-06, 06:13 PM	I really like the idea of keeping the price and craft DC for armour piercing arrows as it is for masterwork arrows, but then the arrows drop to a lower die for damage--because, the arrow head has been hardened and thus creates a much smaller wound (as per the replyer above). w/ regard to the "snipe" feat... one thought I have is that if this feat basically takes a full round to use, then at the lower levels, not as much is being given up for it... and a +4 to hit at the lower levels is big. but at the higher levels you'd almost never use this feat, as you'd be sacrificing several attacks for 1 extra attack that is (just) a +4 to hit. that is why I considered making the bonus to hit go up at higher levels... do you see what I mean? any suggestions? --tc
bruiserdeck 11-06-06, 06:55 PM	consider the following. My DM and I worked out the following arrows that we find fun and ballanced. Armor Piercing arrows - lower effective AC by 2 but only deal d6 damage (long bow) or D6 -1 (shortbow). (in real life AP ammow generly does less damage but pierce armor.) Broad Head arrows - these arrows raise the effective AC of armor by 2 but deal 1 die higher of damage. thus d8 shortbow or d10 longbow mostly effective vs casters and any one in non metal equivilant armor. other ideas we had but were either not effective or simply annoying... Barbed arrows - deal normal damage when fired but d4+1 damage when removed. useless because generaly ... the plaers are not around when ever an enemy goes about removing arrows if they survive the battle. although it really sucked when hobgoblin assasins used them against the party. Serrated Arrows - short bow damage was 2d3 instead of D6. and long bow damage was 2d4 instead of d8. was just a bit annoying because we usually roll hit and damage dice at the same time. thus if my ranger shoots 3 shots i will roll 3 d20 and 3 color coordinated d8s. shooting 3 serated arrows ment 3 d20 and 6 d4. other arrows for your enjoyment. use a craft check to reverse engenier dragon breath arrows. then craft dragon breath arrows that use alchemist shock or alchemist frost. dragon breath frost is just like dragon breath fire but cold damage. dragon breath shock arrows delt 2d4 additional damage if the save was failed (instead of 1d4 for 1d4 rounds like frost and fire) course we also modified the save DC to scale better but thats a totaly differnt issue.
SirCaran 11-06-06, 08:59 PM	there is a phased enchantment in one of the books that ignores armor not sure which book though
flipoflak92 11-06-06, 09:30 PM	How about if you make it so the explodes after it hits them, and does additional damage? I'm not sure if that exists, but it came to mind when i saw this thread
Timzc1 11-07-06, 03:22 AM	...explode? sounds like you would have to use craft AND archemy for that, and the DC's would have to be VERY high, and expensive... has a 'modern' feel to it... I don't like the flavor of it, personally, but... what kind of rules / mechanics do you suggest? --tc
altec_seeker 11-07-06, 09:50 AM	Well R.A. Salvatore wrote about one of his char. making these kinda arrows but they were bolts.... hallow tip with a vial of Oil of Impact placed in the tip. Don't know if that helps or not :)
Errean 11-07-06, 10:20 AM	Hello all: Some help: 1. I would like a ranger character of mine to craft some arrows that I have never heard of in the game. They would be "armour piercing" arrows. I was thinking the craft DC and the cost would be the same as master work arrows, but instead of them having an all round +1 to hit, these arrows would have the effect of reducing a target's armour bonus (or thing's hardness) by 2. I thought such an invention might be intriguing and, story-wise, plausible. Also, the idea could be extended: perhaps, for more cost and a higher craft DC, the arrow's effect could be to reduce the target's armour bonus by 3 or even more (perhaps). What you're talking about here is a little weird. Not just in D&D mechanics but also in how arrows work. First thing, the arrows that D&D has stated out ARE armor piercing arrows. There wasn't ever such a thing as "armor-piercing" arrows historically, there were broadheads and such that were made to punch through armor and maintain damaging potential once they made it through. If you look at a target arrow and compare it to a D&D arrow, as per the picture in the PHB, you'll see that the real target arrow would do a lot less damage but not really be that much better at piercing metal armor. Second point, I can't think of an arrow head that I've seen that should/would/could help you cut through a door. Fire a bow into a 2x4 some time and see what happens. (I strongly suggest that you don't actually do this, you could get seriously hurt.) Third point, D&D doesn't normally have you adjust other peoples equipment. Sometimes, it does. But what you're discribing normally shows up as a "+2 to hit" not a "Their armor bonus is reduced by two". Note, what you're talking about is a +2 non-magical enhancement bonus to hit. That's pretty damn powerful. As a DM, I wouldn't let you do it, let alone at the same rate as Masterwork. P.S. I've been shooting archery for 13 years. I haven't seen it all but I have seen some pretty crazy stuff. And using arrows to damage inanimate objects is NOT one of them.
Errean 11-07-06, 10:22 AM	Well R.A. Salvatore wrote about one of his char. making these kinda arrows but they were bolts.... hallow tip with a vial of Oil of Impact placed in the tip. Don't know if that helps or not :) Caderly (sp?) put the vials in the SHAFT of the bolt in the Cleric's Quintet. They were meant to clear away rubble and what not and he hated shooting people with them...but he did... a lot.
Watchman 11-07-06, 03:59 PM	Specialized armour-piercing arrowheads are historical enough. Out East where everyone and their dog seems to have had a composite bow and accordingly everyone who could decked himself out in as much protective ironmongery as possible as a counter many more permutations no doubt existed, but of European history I know around two main types. One is some variation of a long, fairly thin "needle" or spike meant to slip between the rings of mail and sink right through flexible nonmetallic armour. Another is a rather massive-looking, sharp squat "pyramid" tip for punching through various types of metal plate armour, although even heavy crossbows and good recurve composite bows couldn't be expected to defeat good monolith steel plate except at rather short ranges. Did these armour-piercing "spikes" lose out on the actual tissue damage potential ? Heck yes, although some had small barbs and/or cutting edges for that extra bit of hurt. But they had a decent chance of hurting well-armoured opponents, which arrowheads better suited to cutting flesh and blood vessels and generally causing grievous bodily harm lacked. Besides, having a pointy thing inserted into your inner organs is bad news regardless of the exact tip shape in any case. Just ask all those people who died of rapier and smallsword wounds. Archers in general tended to have lots of different types of arrows and -heads for different ranges and purposes, even "civilian" hunters (although they normally had fewer uses for the armour-piercing kind, obviously). The broad-bladed type wont to cause severe internal bleeding was mainly employed against "soft" targets not decked out in serious protective gear; barbed variations of the design were particularly popular against unarmoured horses, and simple poisons and other further nastiness (hint: particles of earth and/or excrement are *not* healthy in a wound...) were commonly added to further ruin the target's day.
bruiserdeck 11-07-06, 04:26 PM	Third point, D&D doesn't normally have you adjust other peoples equipment. Sometimes, it does. But what you're discribing normally shows up as a "+2 to hit" not a "Their armor bonus is reduced by two". while your right that D&D general gives +x to hit rather than -x to opponents armor. the idea behind the AP arrows is to reduece the effectiveness of the opponents armor.. thus it would be kind of silly to apply a +3 bonus when the opponents armor only provides +2 protection. thats why its suggested that the arrows reduece the opponents effective AC bonus. rather than simply adding bonuses to the shot. also to note... your correct the whole idea of the arrow is to provide a better chance to hit and the bonus to hit is signifignt, this isbalanced by dealing less damage. the signifigance of the damage reduction is up for interpertation.
MogliGrimTooth 11-07-06, 04:50 PM	Check out the enchant "explosive" from Complete Warrior..... 2d4 damage to all targets in a 5ft radius,including the inital target Reflex dc15 halves... this is on top of arrow damage to target. +3 enchant on a ragned weapon or +2 on a Melee weapon.
somogyi 11-07-06, 04:56 PM	i saw armor piercing arrows in a mongoose book. they gave +1 atk and dmg vs tagets wearing metal armor. most of my dms have let me use them if i was playing an archer. they were 5g for 20.
Timzc1 11-07-06, 05:24 PM	First thing, the arrows that D&D has stated out ARE armor piercing arrows. There wasn't ever such a thing as "armor-piercing" arrows historically, there were broadheads and such that were made to punch through armor and maintain damaging potential once they made it through. If you look at a target arrow and compare it to a D&D arrow, as per the picture in the PHB, you'll see that the real target arrow would do a lot less damage but not really be that much better at piercing metal armor. Second point, I can't think of an arrow head that I've seen that should/would/could help you cut through a door. Fire a bow into a 2x4 some time and see what happens. (I strongly suggest that you don't actually do this, you could get seriously hurt.) Third point, D&D doesn't normally have you adjust other peoples equipment. Sometimes, it does. But what you're discribing normally shows up as a "+2 to hit" not a "Their armor bonus is reduced by two". Note, what you're talking about is a +2 non-magical enhancement bonus to hit. That's pretty damn powerful. As a DM, I wouldn't let you do it, let alone at the same rate as Masterwork. ________ With regard to arrows (piercing!) harming objects, yes I agree -- somewhat ridiculous on my behalf! With regards to the mechanics of armour piercing, I LIKED the general novelty of reducing someone's effective armour class... sure the idea might be somewhat new / different, but so what? (also, against e.g. a mage with no armour bonus, then these arrows are no benefit...). w/ re to the realism... well, this is up to the DM and players. e.g. the people who like forgotten realms (where every farmer has a +3 Plow, and commoners frequently trip over Rods of Power Word Kill on the way to market), where 'realism' is out the window, I am sure they wont care much. In Iron heros, sure, maybe these players care far more about the historical accuracy of ideas about weapons, etc For me, the key is variety, balance and storyline. So long as there is a somewhat pluasible story to tell... that's all I want. But each to their own! --tc