Artifact CL?? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Artifact CL?? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
HairyApe
04-13-07, 09:51 AM What is the caster level on artifacts that have spells? For instance, the Sword of Kas has Blasphemy 1/day (?), and the caster level is not listed, but it does say Vecna created it, IIRC. Would it be the minimum for casting blasphemy, or Vecna's CL, or the CL to theoretically create an equivalent to the SoK?

I ask because in a game last night, where we may or may not have the Sword of Kas, we tried to Blasphemy a BBEG. Well, THE BBEG. I understand why it didn't work, but I would like to know how it should work. Any ideas are appreciated, and thanks in advance for your input and help!
RavenDrake
04-13-07, 10:11 AM Hmm.... it dosen't list it, but it does list the weapon components of the blade, I would take the highest required caster level of the enhancement bonus(which is three times the enhancement bonus, or 3x6=18 in this case) or the highest Caster level of the special properties(CL 7th for Unholy, CL 10th for Keen, and CL 18th for Vorpal).

So basically caster level 18th....
HairyApe
04-13-07, 10:31 AM But, in order to create a +6 weapon don't you have to have the Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor feat?? That requires a spellcraft of 28 ranks, putting you at 25th level.
RavenDrake
04-13-07, 11:06 AM But, in order to create a +6 weapon don't you have to have the Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor feat?? That requires a spellcraft of 28 ranks, putting you at 25th level.

True, but the caster level of the Item is NOT always the same as the caster level of it's creator. While I'm not fully conversant with Epic rules(having never used them) my scans of the epic magic items creation rules don't have anything that contradicts the basic magic item creation rules about setting caster level.... at least not that I could find.

While you'd have to be 25th level to make it, that won't necessarily affect the item's caster level.
Zuractai
04-13-07, 12:25 PM The Sword of Kas wasn't made by Vecna, it is Kas, the guy that cut off his hand and eye. But yea, unless it says otherwise the caster level is normal concidered the lowest needed to cast the spell. It costs more to make it at a higher caster level, which explains why it normaly isn't, not that Kas had to realy pay anything...
HairyApe
04-13-07, 12:37 PM Well, normally I'd agree. But, without getting into to many details (its not on SRD), one of the spells does NOT normally allow for 10d6 damage. Which is confusing.
RavenDrake
04-13-07, 02:47 PM That is odd..... it lets you Call Lighting for 10d6.... which flat out isn't possible in 3.5... or 3.0 for that matter.

Either that means it was supposed to be Lightning Bolt, or it's simply a very special property of a very special weapon. Either way the caster level of the item wouldn't have any effect on the Call Lighting ability.
tarkin
04-13-07, 03:44 PM It's an artifact.

It does a 10d6 Call Lightning. I.E. Call Lightning, but artifact-ly improved upto 10d6.
steventirey1985
04-13-07, 06:21 PM The Sword of Kas wasn't made by Vecna, it is Kas, the guy that cut off his hand and eye.

Not to get picky (ok, maybe just a little picky) the Sword of Kas WAS made by Vecna. It says so right in the items description.
Dheran
04-14-07, 10:03 PM Major Artifacts are, by definition, things you can't create using the rules. The caster level should be the maximum that could possibly apply (Vecna's, with all possible enhancements: Candle of Invocation, Bead of Karma, Ankh of Ascension, The Tome of the Stilled Tongue, domain bonus, and an Orange Ioun stone) or about 36.
RavenDrake
04-15-07, 12:10 AM Major Artifacts are, by definition, things you can't create using the rules. The caster level should be the maximum that could possibly apply (Vecna's, with all possible enhancements: Candle of Invocation, Bead of Karma, Ankh of Ascension, The Tome of the Stilled Tongue, domain bonus, and an Orange Ioun stone) or about 36.

While interesting, it's largely irrelevent. The creator's caster level has absolutely nothing, NOTHING, to do with the caster level of the item. If an 88th level God-mage crafted a +1 Longsword the sword's effective caster level is 3rd, period.

Nothing in the item's description seems to indicate that it's spell-like abilities would be of a higher caster level than the base item's CL equivilancies, so you take the highest of them (18th) as the weapon's effective caster level unless the item would specifiy otherwise(which it dosen't, in this particular case.)
Mrloki
04-15-07, 12:45 AM Well you don't really create artifacts, so much as you make a powerful item, then through various things. I.E. the attempted assassination of Vecna! So its making would have been beyond normal Caster level and such. Now granted that a diety could make such a weapon. But this is just my insight. Also for the noted extra dmg on call lightning. Might I point you to the fact that one of higher devils has a flame blade that does more then normal dmg.
RavenDrake
04-15-07, 02:12 AM The point I'm making is that, artifact or not, if it had a higher than normal Caster Level it would have pointed it out. I mean, it's all well and good to say "OOh, Vecna touched it, it must be caster level 9,000!" but just pulling a random number out of thin air is kind of a silly way to handle it. You're free to houserule whatever you want, though, but unless it states otherwise it should follow the rules for determining caster level for Epic magic items.

Which are EXACTLY the same as determining caster level for Core magic items with the exception of items which make use of 10th level magic(minimum item caster level of 21 I believe).
Aktariel
04-15-07, 04:45 AM I always thought that artifact powers were all CL 20.. but I don't remember where I read that, and I could be totally wrong.

[I'm just waiting for someone to say "You are."]
Ashen_Child
04-15-07, 07:38 AM I thought that too, at least for major artifacts.

DMG maybe??
Witch
04-15-07, 07:46 AM No, it's not true. Artifacts specify their caster level in the DMG, and it's variable, both for minor and major artifacts.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
HairyApe 04-13-07, 09:51 AM	What is the caster level on artifacts that have spells? For instance, the Sword of Kas has Blasphemy 1/day (?), and the caster level is not listed, but it does say Vecna created it, IIRC. Would it be the minimum for casting blasphemy, or Vecna's CL, or the CL to theoretically create an equivalent to the SoK? I ask because in a game last night, where we may or may not have the Sword of Kas, we tried to Blasphemy a BBEG. Well, THE BBEG. I understand why it didn't work, but I would like to know how it should work. Any ideas are appreciated, and thanks in advance for your input and help!
RavenDrake 04-13-07, 10:11 AM	Hmm.... it dosen't list it, but it does list the weapon components of the blade, I would take the highest required caster level of the enhancement bonus(which is three times the enhancement bonus, or 3x6=18 in this case) or the highest Caster level of the special properties(CL 7th for Unholy, CL 10th for Keen, and CL 18th for Vorpal). So basically caster level 18th....
HairyApe 04-13-07, 10:31 AM	But, in order to create a +6 weapon don't you have to have the Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor feat?? That requires a spellcraft of 28 ranks, putting you at 25th level.
RavenDrake 04-13-07, 11:06 AM	But, in order to create a +6 weapon don't you have to have the Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor feat?? That requires a spellcraft of 28 ranks, putting you at 25th level. True, but the caster level of the Item is NOT always the same as the caster level of it's creator. While I'm not fully conversant with Epic rules(having never used them) my scans of the epic magic items creation rules don't have anything that contradicts the basic magic item creation rules about setting caster level.... at least not that I could find. While you'd have to be 25th level to make it, that won't necessarily affect the item's caster level.
Zuractai 04-13-07, 12:25 PM	The Sword of Kas wasn't made by Vecna, it is Kas, the guy that cut off his hand and eye. But yea, unless it says otherwise the caster level is normal concidered the lowest needed to cast the spell. It costs more to make it at a higher caster level, which explains why it normaly isn't, not that Kas had to realy pay anything...
HairyApe 04-13-07, 12:37 PM	Well, normally I'd agree. But, without getting into to many details (its not on SRD), one of the spells does NOT normally allow for 10d6 damage. Which is confusing.
RavenDrake 04-13-07, 02:47 PM	That is odd..... it lets you Call Lighting for 10d6.... which flat out isn't possible in 3.5... or 3.0 for that matter. Either that means it was supposed to be Lightning Bolt, or it's simply a very special property of a very special weapon. Either way the caster level of the item wouldn't have any effect on the Call Lighting ability.
tarkin 04-13-07, 03:44 PM	It's an artifact. It does a 10d6 Call Lightning. I.E. Call Lightning, but artifact-ly improved upto 10d6.
steventirey1985 04-13-07, 06:21 PM	The Sword of Kas wasn't made by Vecna, it is Kas, the guy that cut off his hand and eye. Not to get picky (ok, maybe just a little picky) the Sword of Kas WAS made by Vecna. It says so right in the items description.
Dheran 04-14-07, 10:03 PM	Major Artifacts are, by definition, things you can't create using the rules. The caster level should be the maximum that could possibly apply (Vecna's, with all possible enhancements: Candle of Invocation, Bead of Karma, Ankh of Ascension, The Tome of the Stilled Tongue, domain bonus, and an Orange Ioun stone) or about 36.
RavenDrake 04-15-07, 12:10 AM	Major Artifacts are, by definition, things you can't create using the rules. The caster level should be the maximum that could possibly apply (Vecna's, with all possible enhancements: Candle of Invocation, Bead of Karma, Ankh of Ascension, The Tome of the Stilled Tongue, domain bonus, and an Orange Ioun stone) or about 36. While interesting, it's largely irrelevent. The creator's caster level has absolutely nothing, NOTHING, to do with the caster level of the item. If an 88th level God-mage crafted a +1 Longsword the sword's effective caster level is 3rd, period. Nothing in the item's description seems to indicate that it's spell-like abilities would be of a higher caster level than the base item's CL equivilancies, so you take the highest of them (18th) as the weapon's effective caster level unless the item would specifiy otherwise(which it dosen't, in this particular case.)
Mrloki 04-15-07, 12:45 AM	Well you don't really create artifacts, so much as you make a powerful item, then through various things. I.E. the attempted assassination of Vecna! So its making would have been beyond normal Caster level and such. Now granted that a diety could make such a weapon. But this is just my insight. Also for the noted extra dmg on call lightning. Might I point you to the fact that one of higher devils has a flame blade that does more then normal dmg.
RavenDrake 04-15-07, 02:12 AM	The point I'm making is that, artifact or not, if it had a higher than normal Caster Level it would have pointed it out. I mean, it's all well and good to say "OOh, Vecna touched it, it must be caster level 9,000!" but just pulling a random number out of thin air is kind of a silly way to handle it. You're free to houserule whatever you want, though, but unless it states otherwise it should follow the rules for determining caster level for Epic magic items. Which are EXACTLY the same as determining caster level for Core magic items with the exception of items which make use of 10th level magic(minimum item caster level of 21 I believe).
Aktariel 04-15-07, 04:45 AM	I always thought that artifact powers were all CL 20.. but I don't remember where I read that, and I could be totally wrong. [I'm just waiting for someone to say "You are."]
Ashen_Child 04-15-07, 07:38 AM	I thought that too, at least for major artifacts. DMG maybe??
Witch 04-15-07, 07:46 AM	No, it's not true. Artifacts specify their caster level in the DMG, and it's variable, both for minor and major artifacts.