Artificer wants to create this item! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Artificer wants to create this item! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Belfur
11-10-06, 04:39 PM Hi,
In my game one of my players (artificer) came to me last session and wanted to create a magic item, which gives him a bonus to Use Magic Device. He is 2nd level and wants to create a CL3 item. He refered to goggles of minuite seeing and boots and cloak of elvenkind, which are around CL 3 and give a +5 to search, hide or move silent. Now he was arguing, that a UMD+5 item would be the same, I said I will think about it, but as UMD is a lot more powerful than these other skills, I would only give him a +2 bonus.
Something like this:
CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Items; some spell or inspire competence, Price 2500gp,
He also wants to implant it as a warforged.
What do think about this? Am I too strict or too lenient?
Thanks for your coments.
DarkRhystar
11-10-06, 05:18 PM First of all, using the formula is the last option a DM should choose when pricing items. It's usually far better to consider what the value of the item really is and price it that way.

To see what others have done, look at this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=382714). Some have chosen to make it much more restrictive and while I'm not sold on such, it's an option.
tarkin
11-10-06, 05:41 PM I don't object to the price he wants.

I strongly object to "some spell or inspire competence" as the pre-req.

He wants to make a +5 UMD item?

Fine.

His Pre-req is 5 ranks in UMD.

Anything else looks abusive to me.
supernerd8916
11-10-06, 06:07 PM I don't object to the price he wants.

I strongly object to "some spell or inspire competence" as the pre-req.

He wants to make a +5 UMD item?

Fine.

His Pre-req is 5 ranks in UMD.

Anything else looks abusive to me.

As a second level artificer, if he doesn't have +5 ranks in UMD he should be slapped :P :) :rimshot:
Belfur
11-10-06, 06:46 PM Actually what I wrote above is my proposition for the item and the "any spell or inspire competence" should mean, that I do not want to make it to be too easy for him, so it is not "any" but should be a specific spell (I thought about Imbue with spell ability, but that is level 4), but 5 ranks UMD sounds fine. Do you really think he should get +5? That would nearly double his UMD skill.
Revised:
CL 3; Craft Wondrous Items; UMD 5 ranks; Price 2500gp;
Gives +2 competence bonus to UMD.
Deep Blue 9000
11-10-06, 06:51 PM The formula in the DMG says a competence bonus to a skill should be 100xbonus squared. So that's 2500 for a +5. If you think UMD is better than other skills, try adding a multiplier to the price, a 50% increase sounds about right. That would mean 3750 +2 for +5 or 600 gp for a +2.

If you make a +2 item cost 2500 you are increasing it from a DMG suggested price of 400 gp by almost 6 times.
Belfur
11-10-06, 07:30 PM Good point Deep Blue 9000. I think I will give him the item with +5 for 150%, so 3750gp (he has to get the gps, in the first place). And tell him that I might take it away from him (or reduce the bonus if necessary).
Thanks for your help
Forged_Fury
11-10-06, 07:33 PM Have him check out Spellsight Spectacles from Complete Adventurer (or Arcane, maybe). They basically give you a +5 UMD check to scroll activation and scroll deciphering without casting read magic. Limited as such, I don't think anyone would argue they're overpowered. Scrolls are one of the few items that you probably are going to need a consistently high UMD check to succesfully activate (as the DC climbs with the caster level of the spell).

-FF
Voldar_Mecorthio
11-11-06, 01:10 AM if you'll look at the magic item pricing charts, the price of a skill boosting magic item (for a competence boost) is bonus squared time 100gp. So +5 woulc cost 2500gp.
TrackStar
11-11-06, 01:48 AM How do people end up making +30 skill items over on the artificer threads? Thats 9 million gold isnt it?
Neutronium_Dragon
11-11-06, 02:10 AM 30 x 30 = 900.
900 x 100 = 90000.

Well within normal price range.
TrackStar
11-11-06, 02:35 AM oh ok, I missread the above mentioned formula
aelryinth
11-11-06, 04:46 AM Step 1: Find a magic item that grants a +competence bonus to UMD and compare the price.

Guess what? There are no magic items that grant named bonuses to UMD. That should set off alarm bells.

Step 2: Find ANY item that grants a bonus to UMD.

There's the circlet of Persuasion and the Admiral's Tricorn, which grant unnamed bonuses to all Charisma checks, of which UMD is one, oddly enough. Bonus of +2 and +4.

Hrn! So there is NOTHING out there which grants direct, named bonuses to UMD. Which should be making those bells GONGS.

Reasonable assumption: You can't make a magic item with a bonus directly to UMD.

II: Realize, that if his widdle artificer can make this Competence item, then he can later use infusions to change the bonuses to Insight, sacred, enhancement, whatever....for no additional cost. Can you say, +60 to UMD check? That's right, make multiple competence items, change the bonuses, and they stack.

III. Balance is probably more important then your player thinks it is. Tell him to make a circlet of persuasion and get skill focus (UMD), and maybe he'll realize how important the skill is and how powerful it can be. Kindly note to him that if you allow him to make the UMD device so readily, that any level 12 adventurer could make a +30 UMD toy, use it untrainined, and use almost any magic item in the DMG freely without a rank of UMD?

IV> when he whines about burning a feat on Skill Focus of all things, note that when he gets his rank and charisma up (oh, you mean he wanted to dump Charisma too? silly artificer), you'll let him retrain it.

Until then, you probably shouldn't allow a +competence item for UMD. It's a copout for character builds, in the end.

===Aelryinth
Maxxx
11-11-06, 07:26 AM There's the circlet of Persuasion and the Admiral's Tricorn, which grant unnamed bonuses to all Charisma checks, of which UMD is one, oddly enough. Bonus of +2 and +4.

Hrn! So there is NOTHING out there which grants direct, named bonuses to UMD. Which should be making those bells GONGS.

Sorry to disagree, but the circlet of Persuasion gives a +3 Competence bonus to all Charisma-based skills, not a +2 unnamed one.
Forged_Fury
11-11-06, 10:23 AM Step 1: Find a magic item that grants a +competence bonus to UMD and compare the price.

Guess what? There are no magic items that grant named bonuses to UMD. That should set off alarm bells.
Spellsight Spectacles from Complete Adventurer provide a +5 competence bonus to Spellcraft checks to decipher scrolls and a +5 competence bonus to activate scrolls through UMD. Market Price is 2500 gp. Granted, this item provides bonuses to skill checks on a limited basis.

-Forged_Fury
DarkRhystar
11-11-06, 12:13 PM Step 1: Find a magic item that grants a +competence bonus to UMD and compare the price.

Step 2: Find ANY item that grants a bonus to UMD.

I don't buy this logic as it basically infers that anything not already published by WotC must be broken by default.
ravenshrike
11-11-06, 03:24 PM Spellsight Spectacles from Complete Adventurer provide a +5 competence bonus to Spellcraft checks to decipher scrolls and a +5 competence bonus to activate scrolls through UMD. Market Price is 2500 gp. Granted, this item provides bonuses to skill checks on a limited basis.

-Forged_Fury
True, but that's mainly because it's providing 2 skill check bonuses for the price of one.
CryoSilver
11-11-06, 03:47 PM I once petitioned my DM for a +5 UMD item formy rogue, whose main focus was using magic items and passing himself off as a low-level sorcerer.

He charged me 5000 gp for it (double the price) and I was cool with that.
aelryinth
11-11-06, 05:24 PM I don't buy this logic as it basically infers that anything not already published by WotC must be broken by default.
No, it infers that WoTC hasn't put such an item out from a point of game balance. The spectacles are an extremely limited form of UMD buff...shows you how seriously they take the UMD skill. Just allowing a +competence item for UMD because the Item creation rules say its possible is ignoring precedence, and precedence is more important then the item creation rules...they come in LAST.

Oops on the Circlet. The Tricorn is twice as strong as the Circlet, as I recall.

==Aelryinth
DrMorganes
11-11-06, 05:50 PM Only issue I see with this is that, as a Level 2 PC, he does not possess the feat required to craft said item. Craft Wondrous Item has a Caster Level prereq of 3. No using UMD to get around that!

Also, when pricing items, one must consider the utility of the item in question. The classic example of this is, of course, the Ring of True Strike, which, by the guidelines would cost a mere 2,000gp! (Continuous use item, Level 1 spell, Level 1 Caster Level = 1x1x2000) This, obviously, is far, far too affordable for a constant +20 to all your attack rolls.

Likewise, +5 to UMD is NOT the same as a +5 to Hide. Hide (and most other skills) have a limited sphere of usefulness. Use Magic Device, however, allows one to do stuff. A LOT of stuff. A LOT of stuff not part of one's normal class abilities. This is at least DOUBLELY true for artificers, who use the skill to BYPASS prerequisites for the creation of magic items that will further enhance his own abilities and the abilities of the rest of the party. 2,500gp just is NOT enough for such an item. 5,000gp is not enough for such an item. 50,000 might be getting close.

If by chance you decide to allow such a thing for such a bargain-basement price, at a bare minimum keep in mind the Character Wealth by Level chart and ENFORCE IT. Use purchase price - not creation price - when determining character wealth, and remember that the rules say that no more than 50% of the wealth limit should be spent on any one item. By those rules, he'll need to be Level 6 at a minimum before acquiring or creating such an item.
DarkRhystar
11-11-06, 05:52 PM No, it infers that WoTC hasn't put such an item out from a point of game balance.

The key point I am trying to make is that being published by WotC does not in any way, shape, or form infer balance and that vice versa is true--not being published by WotC does not infer an imbalance.

Case and point is the Warlock class. Before the class was published, how many people would have had a knee-jerk reaction to a class with unlimited blasting and minor spells and screamed "UNBALANCED!!!!" do you think? (Heck, how many still do...) It wasn't that the class was unbalanced, but rather many were not open to the idea until WotC shoved in their face.

Turn that around and look at all the material published in books that you feel is broken. I would make an example but what I may perceive as broken may not be the same as what you do. :) However, you need only check all the errata WotC has published to notice that they make mistakes... plenty of them.

Really, being published in a WotC means very little in terms of balance or imbalance. With this realization, it's not logical to conclude that something is not balanced since it hasn't been published as there is no correlation between the two (direct or otherwise).

If you wish to argue that an item giving a bonus to UMD is unbalanced, you should do so on the merits of the power of the bonus... not on the case that it is unbalanced because WotC hasn't published it.
Vaelan
11-12-06, 05:46 AM No, it infers that WoTC hasn't put such an item out from a point of game balance.
The premise is unquestionably false and your conclusion is not logically sound, even given your premise. You could not come up with a weaker argument if you tried.

The fact that WotC has not published it means absolutely nothing in the absence of other factors.
ravenshrike
11-12-06, 12:07 PM If by chance you decide to allow such a thing for such a bargain-basement price, at a bare minimum keep in mind the Character Wealth by Level chart and ENFORCE IT. Use purchase price - not creation price - when determining character wealth, and remember that the rules say that no more than 50% of the wealth limit should be spent on any one item. By those rules, he'll need to be Level 6 at a minimum before acquiring or creating such an item.
That chart applies only at character creation thank you. Assuming the person in question has in the game managed to save up that money, then he can buy it if he damn well pleases.
Azdraugnor
11-12-06, 03:10 PM No, it infers that WoTC hasn't put such an item out from a point of game balance.

Shard of Use Magic Device +5
:P
Thiez
11-12-06, 03:49 PM "and remember that the rules say that no more than 50% of the wealth limit should be spent on any one item."

That's for character creation. If a player wants to save money for a really expensive item, he should be able to do it. After all, is there any logical explanation why he can't have it, in-game?

"Sir, can I buy that item?"
"Eerh, depends, can I have your name, please?"
"It's Morgan the Terrible."
"According to my archive, you're only level 2. That means that, according to the wealth-by-level guidelines, you may have the item to buy this item, but you can't have it."
"Why? What are you talking about? What is level? What are wealth-by-level guidelines?!"
"Look, don't pretend you don't know. You're trying to cheat! I'm onto you!"
"I kill him."
"Ha! I kill you first! POWER WORD KILL!"
"Screw you, DM, you suck. I'm off."
DracoPhoenix
11-13-06, 07:50 AM Im pretty much going with the above posters:

The formula you want is the bonus x bonus x 100 mentioned above.

a UMD bonus in the hands of an Artificer is dangerous. Consider a sharp price cost rise (x2, x3+). Or, a moderate cost (+50%) in addition to making the bonus apply only to USING the device, not crafting (possibly allow potions & scrolls).

If the play is not happy with it or wants justification, point out that it bolsters one of his main abilities, which also happens to allow him to cast pretty much ANY spell in game. +5 to a DC 20 check is a 25% bonus to the chance of success. Also as mentioned, this isn't really a situational dependent skill - unlike hide, or open locks which tend to only work in certain circumstances.

(I may have just repeated everything above, but that's my �0.49 (exchange rate & inflation suck) on the matter)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Belfur 11-10-06, 04:39 PM	Hi, In my game one of my players (artificer) came to me last session and wanted to create a magic item, which gives him a bonus to Use Magic Device. He is 2nd level and wants to create a CL3 item. He refered to goggles of minuite seeing and boots and cloak of elvenkind, which are around CL 3 and give a +5 to search, hide or move silent. Now he was arguing, that a UMD+5 item would be the same, I said I will think about it, but as UMD is a lot more powerful than these other skills, I would only give him a +2 bonus. Something like this: CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Items; some spell or inspire competence, Price 2500gp, He also wants to implant it as a warforged. What do think about this? Am I too strict or too lenient? Thanks for your coments.
DarkRhystar 11-10-06, 05:18 PM	First of all, using the formula is the last option a DM should choose when pricing items. It's usually far better to consider what the value of the item really is and price it that way. To see what others have done, look at this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=382714). Some have chosen to make it much more restrictive and while I'm not sold on such, it's an option.
tarkin 11-10-06, 05:41 PM	I don't object to the price he wants. I strongly object to "some spell or inspire competence" as the pre-req. He wants to make a +5 UMD item? Fine. His Pre-req is 5 ranks in UMD. Anything else looks abusive to me.
supernerd8916 11-10-06, 06:07 PM	I don't object to the price he wants. I strongly object to "some spell or inspire competence" as the pre-req. He wants to make a +5 UMD item? Fine. His Pre-req is 5 ranks in UMD. Anything else looks abusive to me. As a second level artificer, if he doesn't have +5 ranks in UMD he should be slapped :P :) :rimshot:
Belfur 11-10-06, 06:46 PM	Actually what I wrote above is my proposition for the item and the "any spell or inspire competence" should mean, that I do not want to make it to be too easy for him, so it is not "any" but should be a specific spell (I thought about Imbue with spell ability, but that is level 4), but 5 ranks UMD sounds fine. Do you really think he should get +5? That would nearly double his UMD skill. Revised: CL 3; Craft Wondrous Items; UMD 5 ranks; Price 2500gp; Gives +2 competence bonus to UMD.
Deep Blue 9000 11-10-06, 06:51 PM	The formula in the DMG says a competence bonus to a skill should be 100xbonus squared. So that's 2500 for a +5. If you think UMD is better than other skills, try adding a multiplier to the price, a 50% increase sounds about right. That would mean 3750 +2 for +5 or 600 gp for a +2. If you make a +2 item cost 2500 you are increasing it from a DMG suggested price of 400 gp by almost 6 times.
Belfur 11-10-06, 07:30 PM	Good point Deep Blue 9000. I think I will give him the item with +5 for 150%, so 3750gp (he has to get the gps, in the first place). And tell him that I might take it away from him (or reduce the bonus if necessary). Thanks for your help
Forged_Fury 11-10-06, 07:33 PM	Have him check out Spellsight Spectacles from Complete Adventurer (or Arcane, maybe). They basically give you a +5 UMD check to scroll activation and scroll deciphering without casting read magic. Limited as such, I don't think anyone would argue they're overpowered. Scrolls are one of the few items that you probably are going to need a consistently high UMD check to succesfully activate (as the DC climbs with the caster level of the spell). -FF
Voldar_Mecorthio 11-11-06, 01:10 AM	if you'll look at the magic item pricing charts, the price of a skill boosting magic item (for a competence boost) is bonus squared time 100gp. So +5 woulc cost 2500gp.
TrackStar 11-11-06, 01:48 AM	How do people end up making +30 skill items over on the artificer threads? Thats 9 million gold isnt it?
Neutronium_Dragon 11-11-06, 02:10 AM	30 x 30 = 900. 900 x 100 = 90000. Well within normal price range.
TrackStar 11-11-06, 02:35 AM	oh ok, I missread the above mentioned formula
aelryinth 11-11-06, 04:46 AM	Step 1: Find a magic item that grants a +competence bonus to UMD and compare the price. Guess what? There are no magic items that grant named bonuses to UMD. That should set off alarm bells. Step 2: Find ANY item that grants a bonus to UMD. There's the circlet of Persuasion and the Admiral's Tricorn, which grant unnamed bonuses to all Charisma checks, of which UMD is one, oddly enough. Bonus of +2 and +4. Hrn! So there is NOTHING out there which grants direct, named bonuses to UMD. Which should be making those bells GONGS. Reasonable assumption: You can't make a magic item with a bonus directly to UMD. II: Realize, that if his widdle artificer can make this Competence item, then he can later use infusions to change the bonuses to Insight, sacred, enhancement, whatever....for no additional cost. Can you say, +60 to UMD check? That's right, make multiple competence items, change the bonuses, and they stack. III. Balance is probably more important then your player thinks it is. Tell him to make a circlet of persuasion and get skill focus (UMD), and maybe he'll realize how important the skill is and how powerful it can be. Kindly note to him that if you allow him to make the UMD device so readily, that any level 12 adventurer could make a +30 UMD toy, use it untrainined, and use almost any magic item in the DMG freely without a rank of UMD? IV> when he whines about burning a feat on Skill Focus of all things, note that when he gets his rank and charisma up (oh, you mean he wanted to dump Charisma too? silly artificer), you'll let him retrain it. Until then, you probably shouldn't allow a +competence item for UMD. It's a copout for character builds, in the end. ===Aelryinth
Maxxx 11-11-06, 07:26 AM	There's the circlet of Persuasion and the Admiral's Tricorn, which grant unnamed bonuses to all Charisma checks, of which UMD is one, oddly enough. Bonus of +2 and +4. Hrn! So there is NOTHING out there which grants direct, named bonuses to UMD. Which should be making those bells GONGS. Sorry to disagree, but the circlet of Persuasion gives a +3 Competence bonus to all Charisma-based skills, not a +2 unnamed one.
Forged_Fury 11-11-06, 10:23 AM	Step 1: Find a magic item that grants a +competence bonus to UMD and compare the price. Guess what? There are no magic items that grant named bonuses to UMD. That should set off alarm bells. Spellsight Spectacles from Complete Adventurer provide a +5 competence bonus to Spellcraft checks to decipher scrolls and a +5 competence bonus to activate scrolls through UMD. Market Price is 2500 gp. Granted, this item provides bonuses to skill checks on a limited basis. -Forged_Fury
DarkRhystar 11-11-06, 12:13 PM	Step 1: Find a magic item that grants a +competence bonus to UMD and compare the price. Step 2: Find ANY item that grants a bonus to UMD. I don't buy this logic as it basically infers that anything not already published by WotC must be broken by default.
ravenshrike 11-11-06, 03:24 PM	Spellsight Spectacles from Complete Adventurer provide a +5 competence bonus to Spellcraft checks to decipher scrolls and a +5 competence bonus to activate scrolls through UMD. Market Price is 2500 gp. Granted, this item provides bonuses to skill checks on a limited basis. -Forged_Fury True, but that's mainly because it's providing 2 skill check bonuses for the price of one.
CryoSilver 11-11-06, 03:47 PM	I once petitioned my DM for a +5 UMD item formy rogue, whose main focus was using magic items and passing himself off as a low-level sorcerer. He charged me 5000 gp for it (double the price) and I was cool with that.
aelryinth 11-11-06, 05:24 PM	I don't buy this logic as it basically infers that anything not already published by WotC must be broken by default. No, it infers that WoTC hasn't put such an item out from a point of game balance. The spectacles are an extremely limited form of UMD buff...shows you how seriously they take the UMD skill. Just allowing a +competence item for UMD because the Item creation rules say its possible is ignoring precedence, and precedence is more important then the item creation rules...they come in LAST. Oops on the Circlet. The Tricorn is twice as strong as the Circlet, as I recall. ==Aelryinth
DrMorganes 11-11-06, 05:50 PM	Only issue I see with this is that, as a Level 2 PC, he does not possess the feat required to craft said item. Craft Wondrous Item has a Caster Level prereq of 3. No using UMD to get around that! Also, when pricing items, one must consider the utility of the item in question. The classic example of this is, of course, the Ring of True Strike, which, by the guidelines would cost a mere 2,000gp! (Continuous use item, Level 1 spell, Level 1 Caster Level = 1x1x2000) This, obviously, is far, far too affordable for a constant +20 to all your attack rolls. Likewise, +5 to UMD is NOT the same as a +5 to Hide. Hide (and most other skills) have a limited sphere of usefulness. Use Magic Device, however, allows one to do stuff. A LOT of stuff. A LOT of stuff not part of one's normal class abilities. This is at least DOUBLELY true for artificers, who use the skill to BYPASS prerequisites for the creation of magic items that will further enhance his own abilities and the abilities of the rest of the party. 2,500gp just is NOT enough for such an item. 5,000gp is not enough for such an item. 50,000 might be getting close. If by chance you decide to allow such a thing for such a bargain-basement price, at a bare minimum keep in mind the Character Wealth by Level chart and ENFORCE IT. Use purchase price - not creation price - when determining character wealth, and remember that the rules say that no more than 50% of the wealth limit should be spent on any one item. By those rules, he'll need to be Level 6 at a minimum before acquiring or creating such an item.
DarkRhystar 11-11-06, 05:52 PM	No, it infers that WoTC hasn't put such an item out from a point of game balance. The key point I am trying to make is that being published by WotC does not in any way, shape, or form infer balance and that vice versa is true--not being published by WotC does not infer an imbalance. Case and point is the Warlock class. Before the class was published, how many people would have had a knee-jerk reaction to a class with unlimited blasting and minor spells and screamed "UNBALANCED!!!!" do you think? (Heck, how many still do...) It wasn't that the class was unbalanced, but rather many were not open to the idea until WotC shoved in their face. Turn that around and look at all the material published in books that you feel is broken. I would make an example but what I may perceive as broken may not be the same as what you do. :) However, you need only check all the errata WotC has published to notice that they make mistakes... plenty of them. Really, being published in a WotC means very little in terms of balance or imbalance. With this realization, it's not logical to conclude that something is not balanced since it hasn't been published as there is no correlation between the two (direct or otherwise). If you wish to argue that an item giving a bonus to UMD is unbalanced, you should do so on the merits of the power of the bonus... not on the case that it is unbalanced because WotC hasn't published it.
Vaelan 11-12-06, 05:46 AM	No, it infers that WoTC hasn't put such an item out from a point of game balance. The premise is unquestionably false and your conclusion is not logically sound, even given your premise. You could not come up with a weaker argument if you tried. The fact that WotC has not published it means absolutely nothing in the absence of other factors.
ravenshrike 11-12-06, 12:07 PM	If by chance you decide to allow such a thing for such a bargain-basement price, at a bare minimum keep in mind the Character Wealth by Level chart and ENFORCE IT. Use purchase price - not creation price - when determining character wealth, and remember that the rules say that no more than 50% of the wealth limit should be spent on any one item. By those rules, he'll need to be Level 6 at a minimum before acquiring or creating such an item. That chart applies only at character creation thank you. Assuming the person in question has in the game managed to save up that money, then he can buy it if he damn well pleases.
Azdraugnor 11-12-06, 03:10 PM	No, it infers that WoTC hasn't put such an item out from a point of game balance. Shard of Use Magic Device +5 :P
Thiez 11-12-06, 03:49 PM	"and remember that the rules say that no more than 50% of the wealth limit should be spent on any one item." That's for character creation. If a player wants to save money for a really expensive item, he should be able to do it. After all, is there any logical explanation why he can't have it, in-game? "Sir, can I buy that item?" "Eerh, depends, can I have your name, please?" "It's Morgan the Terrible." "According to my archive, you're only level 2. That means that, according to the wealth-by-level guidelines, you may have the item to buy this item, but you can't have it." "Why? What are you talking about? What is level? What are wealth-by-level guidelines?!" "Look, don't pretend you don't know. You're trying to cheat! I'm onto you!" "I kill him." "Ha! I kill you first! POWER WORD KILL!" "Screw you, DM, you suck. I'm off."
DracoPhoenix 11-13-06, 07:50 AM	Im pretty much going with the above posters: The formula you want is the bonus x bonus x 100 mentioned above. a UMD bonus in the hands of an Artificer is dangerous. Consider a sharp price cost rise (x2, x3+). Or, a moderate cost (+50%) in addition to making the bonus apply only to USING the device, not crafting (possibly allow potions & scrolls). If the play is not happy with it or wants justification, point out that it bolsters one of his main abilities, which also happens to allow him to cast pretty much ANY spell in game. +5 to a DC 20 check is a 25% bonus to the chance of success. Also as mentioned, this isn't really a situational dependent skill - unlike hide, or open locks which tend to only work in certain circumstances. (I may have just repeated everything above, but that's my �0.49 (exchange rate & inflation suck) on the matter)