Post/Author/DateTime	Post
breizh23 06-13-06, 09:09 AM	Soon I'll be sitting in to DM for a friend that's been dying to play an artificer (in his own Eberron campaign). I'm new to item creation, and have been pooring through these forums and the srd/dmg for advice. The more 'how do I price this item' threads I read, the more confused I get. :confused: Right now we're negotiating spell-like effect pricing on items via Craft Wondrous Item. The list he gave me to review covers seven body slots with seventeen spell-like effects, each slot comprising of a different school of magic. :eek: Work Boots Spider Climb (1/day) Expedious Retreat (1/day) Enlarge Person (3/day) Worker's Belt Lesser Restoration (1/day) ? Inexorable Possession (1/day) Traveling Vest Mage Armor (continuous) Protection from Arrows (1/day) Traveling Cloak Sanctuary (1/day) Monacle Detect Gold (continuous) Detect Magic (continuous) Know Protection (3/day) Detect Poison (1/day) Read Magic (1/day) Gauntlets Curse Spewing (?/day) Gauntlet (continuous) Launch Bolt (19/day) Battering Ram (1/day) My impression? Some of these spells I am ignoring until I see the source material. I'm inclined to only allow 3.5 WOTC spells, and restrict *some* non-core spells. Even artificers need to go on mini-quests to find some first-level spells (despite their spellcraft check), as they do not show up by courier the day a new splat-book is published. Spell-effects should be arranged on body-slots by nearest affinity, not by school (or 1.5x for mis-slotted effect). I.E.; Expedious Retreat->Gloves, Enlarge Person->Cloak, Shirt, or Belt. No 30% discount for class/etc. limitation. Charges per-day are up to 5. At will (such as launch bolt) may be umlimited use, but follow the (SL x CL x 2,000gp *minimum* guideline), my discretion (I.E. no unlimited cures). His impression? Use any printed spell including some 2nd/3rd Edition and 3rd-Party. Spell-effects stack by school spell. 30% discount because it's 'easier to make a short-cut' for his own class. Charges per day up to 20, but instantaneous-effect spells cannot be made unlimited. All pricing follows 100%/75%/50%/50%... as staff, per crafting session, treating as 100-charge staff, or 10/charge per day (which I do not understand). He's also leveraging for staff-like charge use of 'higher abilities'. I'm familiar with the 'compare to published items' idea; but the list he gave me has pushed me to come up with *some* sort of baseline pricing formula to start with first. Any valid assistance would be greatly appreciated.
tarkin 06-13-06, 10:23 AM	As a DM, your first job is to tell players that: Designing new magic items takes time and effort there is no guarantee that you can get what you want, EVEN if you follow the rules. Not all magic items are possible. The rules in the DMG explicitedly state they are guidelines and the DM is required to make judgment calls. Players should not be looking at them at all, except for ideas to ASK the DM about things like "Will doing this decrease the price?" His impressions is very very wrong, yours is the correct way to do it. Now for some specific facts. A) First level spells are often hard to price. B) Spells that create things that have formulas are always priced at that formula. Prime example of this is armor. He wants Mage Armor continuous. That is called a +4 Bracers of Armor, and should be priced at 16,000 gp. The fact that it is a first level spell is irrelevant (see point A above) C) 30% discounts apply to what you pay to BUY/SELL the item, they do NOT apply to what it costs to make the item. In a power game, you might ignore this rule. Otherwise you are giving the player a discount to have somethign that his enemies can not use.
Merestil Haye 06-13-06, 11:01 AM	Soon I'll be sitting in to DM for a friend that's been dying to play an artificer (in his own Eberron campaign). I'm new to item creation, and have been pooring through these forums and the srd/dmg for advice. The more 'how do I price this item' threads I read, the more confused I get. :confused: Right now we're negotiating spell-like effect pricing on items via Craft Wondrous Item. The list he gave me to review covers seven body slots with seventeen spell-like effects, each slot comprising of a different school of magic. :eek: The first rule of item pricing is this :- If a proposed item mimics an item with an existing effect priced by a formula, use that formula. The second rule is : If the item does not follow a formula, but mimics an existing item, use the pricing for that item. The third rule is : If neither of the above rules apply, and the price derived from continuous or use activated formulae appear unbalanced, increase the price accordingly. As a bit of personal advice, always err on the side of high pricing when valuing a permanent magic item. So lets have a think about these items. Work Boots Spider Climb (1/day) Expedious Retreat (1/day) Enlarge Person (3/day)I'd be happy to use the pricing for use activated items on this one, given the precedent of the Cloak of Arachnida and Boots of Springing and Sriding, both of which provide continuous powers based on one of the spells. All powers should be CL 3 because that's the minimum for Spider Climb. The casting time for Enlarge Person is 1 round; I'd make that power take that long to activate. Worker's Belt Lesser Restoration (1/day)Don't see any problems with this one either; again I would make the activation time based on the spell. ? Inexorable Possession (1/day)Need more details. Traveling Vest Mage Armor (continuous) Protection from Arrows (1/day)Continuous Mage Armour is Bracers of Armour +4 - price 16,000gp. Don't bend on this. Protection from Arrows as the spell with a 50% surcharge. I don't see any problems with body-slot affinity. Traveling Cloak Sanctuary (1/day)[/qote]Don't see problems making this. Remember that the save DC is 11 no matter what his ability is (ie the item is a waste of a slot). Monacle Detect Gold (continuous) Detect Magic (continuous) Know Protection (3/day) Detect Poison (1/day) Read Magic (1/day) Gauntlets Curse Spewing (?/day) Gauntlet (continuous) Launch Bolt (19/day) Battering Ram (1/day)Don't know a couple of these. One thing; any item with > 10 items per day is priced as if it had 10. I'd simply not let him have Launch Bolt unless you specify that (a) he has to supply the bolt and (b) that it does not work if the bolt is enchanted. My impression? Some of these spells I am ignoring until I see the source material. I'm inclined to only allow 3.5 WOTC spells, and restrict *some* non-core spells. Even artificers need to go on mini-quests to find some first-level spells (despite their spellcraft check), as they do not show up by courier the day a new splat-book is published. Spell-effects should be arranged on body-slots by nearest affinity, not by school (or 1.5x for mis-slotted effect). I.E.; Expedious Retreat->Gloves, Enlarge Person->Cloak, Shirt, or Belt. No 30% discount for class/etc. limitation. Charges per-day are up to 5. At will (such as launch bolt) may be umlimited use, but follow the (SL x CL x 2,000gp *minimum* guideline), my discretion (I.E. no unlimited cures). His impression? Use any printed spell including some 2nd/3rd Edition and 3rd-Party. Spell-effects stack by school spell. 30% discount because it's 'easier to make a short-cut' for his own class. Charges per day up to 20, but instantaneous-effect spells cannot be made unlimited. All pricing follows 100%/75%/50%/50%... as staff, per crafting session, treating as 100-charge staff, or 10/charge per day (which I do not understand). He's also leveraging for staff-like charge use of 'higher abilities'. I'm familiar with the 'compare to published items' idea; but the list he gave me has pushed me to come up with *some* sort of baseline pricing formula to start with first. Any valid assistance would be greatly appreciated.The 100% / 75% / 50% discounting is for similar abilites. There is no item on his list with two similar abilites. he has to pay the 50% surcharge for multiple iindependent powers. The 30% discount he is claiming for making things by virtue of being an artificer is not supported. If he takes the relevant Artisan feats from the Eberron book he can reduce his crafting costs by 25%. Remember that by errata he can take these only once each. As for user-limit discounts; I'd say that the core book does not support Tarkin's contention that the discount applies only to the market price; by RAW it reduces the cost to create as well (since it does not say that it doesn't). Ruling that it does not affect the cost to create is therefore a houserule. I don't have any problems with it; indeed I rule the same way in my games. But it is a houserule.
breizh23 06-13-06, 06:21 PM	Hey. Thanks Tarkin and Merestil for your insight. I realize these pricing threads probably get redundant. B) Spells that create things that have formulas are always priced at that formula. I'm reading this essentially as most one-shot items and wands. Everything else seems to have their own quirks. He wants Mage Armor continuous. That is called a +4 Bracers of Armor, and should be priced at 16,000 gp. The fact that it is a first level spell is irrelevant Well noted. If he decided he still wanted to make 'Vest of Armor +2' (minimum CL 4 to create), would that knock down the minimum CL7 crafting requisite? C) 30% discounts apply to what you pay to BUY/SELL the item, they do NOT apply to what it costs to make the item. In a power game, you might ignore this rule. Otherwise you are giving the player a discount to have somethign that his enemies can not use. I generally agree with that, houserule or not. I'm undecided on whether or not he can make items this way at all (but worth 30% less to sell).
breizh23 06-13-06, 07:10 PM	Okay Work Boots Spider Climb (1/day) Expedious Retreat (1/day) Enlarge Person (3/day) I'd be happy to use the pricing for use activated items on this one, given the precedent of the Cloak of Arachnida and Boots of Springing and Sriding, both of which provide continuous powers based on one of the spells. All powers should be CL 3 because that's the minimum for Spider Climb. The casting time for Enlarge Person is 1 round; I'd make that power take that long to activate. Using the Boots of Springing and Striding: 5,500gp, +10 comp. to base speed on land, as 'longstrider' spell (Drd 1, Rgr 1), +5 comp. to Jump skill. 5 (skill bonus) x 5 (squared) x 100gp (competence) = 2,500gp 1 (CL as Drd) x 1 (SL) x 2,000gp (continual) = 2,000gp x 1.5 (lesser different ability) = 3,000gp Combined = 5,500gp market price. So if I extracted that correctly, and using highest mimimum CL for all components, and ignoring body-slot affinity: Enlarge Person (3/day, activates on command full-round action, 3 minutes) 3 (CL) x 1 (SL) x 1,800gp (command) = 5,400gp, /1.66[repeat] (3/day) = 3,240gp (base price) Spider Climb (1/day, activates on command as standard action, 30 minute duration) 3 (CL) x 2 (SL) x 1,800gp (command) = 10800gp, /5 (1/day) = 2,160gp x 1.5 (lesser different ability) = 3,240gp (base price) Expeditious Retreat (1/day, activates on command as standard action, 3 minutes) 3 (CL) x 1 (SL) x 1,800gp (command) = 5,400gp, /5 (1/day) = 1,080gp x 1.5 (lesser different ability) = 1,620gp (base price) Combined = 8,100gp market price. x .5, /25 (item creation cost and xp respectively) = 4,050gp, 162XP, x .75 (Extraordinary Artisan feat, 25% gp discount) = 3037.5gp, 162XP. Does that seem appropriate?
Merestil Haye 06-13-06, 07:23 PM	Combined = 8,100gp market price. x .5, /25 (item creation cost and xp respectively) = 4,050gp, 162XP, x .75 (Extraordinary Artisan feat, 25% gp discount) = 3037.5gp, 162XP.This last is slightly out. I agree the 8,100 market price, and the calculation of gp cost to create. However, the xp cost to create is calculated incorrectly. Cost to create is 1/25th the market price in xp, not 1/25th of the gp cost to create. It would therefore be 8,100/25 = 324xp.
Nom 06-13-06, 07:39 PM	Cost to create is 1/25th the market price in xp, not 1/25th of the gp cost to create.Actually, it's 1/25th of the base price. Market price includes base price, but also includes expensive material components and the cost of the basic (mwk) item, neither of which affect the XP cost.
breizh23 06-13-06, 08:38 PM	Oh, I think something flipped in my head when I attempted the feat and xp math. Thanks for noticing that. Even so, 3,040gp would consume most of his 5,400gp (4th level) and 324xp is beyond his 80 or 100 craft reserve (for artificer 3 and 4). Therefore I'm not going to bother calculating specific items until he agrees to honor my pricing. The Inexorable Possession (1/day); His notation was "Move to recall dagger to hand". I'm unsure of source. From SRD regarding saving throws vs. magical items: "...the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell. So the Traveling cloak (Sanctuary 1/day) is Will save DC 12? (10 +1 +1) Monacle Detect Gold (continuous) Detect Magic (continuous) Know Protection (3/day) Detect Poison (1/day) Read Magic (1/day) Detect Gold is from FR (I think). I'm not sure how to adjucate that (along with Detect Magic) in play, especially if he had either continuous. I'm guessing Know Protection = Know Vulnerability but I'll ask him. Gauntlets Curse Spewing (?/day) Gauntlet (continuous) Launch Bolt (19/day) Battering Ram (1/day) In my trial run with him, this was the most confusing thing. He was treating the combo as, "first round, spew curse (3rd party, will save or -4 morale penalties similar to shaken state for 1 minute), second round, draw three poisoned bolts as ammo (at once) and shoot up to 110ft. with three charges of the launch bolt ability, which apparently stacked with a force effect :confused: for enhanced damage. I think the wolverine took 28 damage, half of which was poison. ("..........umm...what???") One thing; any item with > 10 items per day is priced as if it had 10. I'd simply not let him have Launch Bolt unless you specify that (a) he has to supply the bolt and (b) that it does not work if the bolt is enchanted. Anyway, I'm considering that _broken_, but I am still confused about the >10/day issue. 19/day for a 'vanilla' launch bolt seems like it would be fairly cheap, but I don't recall anything beyond 5/day. Would you mind citing a wondrous item example with math (even if it's approximate)? Thanks again for the info. I'm approaching this cautiously but I'm a slow learner.
Merestil Haye 06-14-06, 04:38 AM	Firstly, Nom is correct in noting that the gold and xp to create are calculated from the base rather than the market price. That's not often a concern for wondrous items but the distinction should be borne in mind and the correct term used for the avoidance of doubt and ambiguity (if possible).Oh, I think something flipped in my head when I attempted the feat and xp math. Thanks for noticing that. Even so, 3,040gp would consume most of his 5,400gp (4th level) and 324xp is beyond his 80 or 100 craft reserve (for artificer 3 and 4). Therefore I'm not going to bother calculating specific items until he agrees to honor my pricing. The Inexorable Possession (1/day); His notation was "Move to recall dagger to hand". I'm unsure of source.This is very problematic. Recall from where? If he means that he wants to be able to draw the dagger without moving his hand that's a minor power. If he wants to summon it from range, the best bet is to look for a spell that calls an item to hand from a distance and price it on that basis. Unfortunately I've come up blank for comparators. So the Traveling cloak (Sanctuary 1/day) is Will save DC 12? (10 +1 +1)Sanctuary is a 1st level spell; you need Wis 11 to cast it, which is a +0 modifier. The DC is 11. Monacle Detect Gold (continuous) Detect Magic (continuous) Know Protection (3/day) Detect Poison (1/day) Read Magic (1/day) Detect Gold is from FR (I think). I'm not sure how to adjucate that (along with Detect Magic) in play, especially if he had either continuous. I'm guessing Know Protection = Know Vulnerability but I'll ask him.Neither Detect Magic, Detect Gold nor Read Magic are particular worries. I'd adjudicate a continuous Detect Magic as the character able to cast the spell at will without having to spend an action to do so; is nshort, if he thinks about it he can learn what he would learn on the round he cast the spell. To get further information he must concentrate to maintain the spell. Gauntlets Curse Spewing (?/day) Gauntlet (continuous) Launch Bolt (19/day) Battering Ram (1/day) In my trial run with him, this was the most confusing thing. He was treating the combo as, "first round, spew curse (3rd party, will save or -4 morale penalties similar to shaken state for 1 minute), second round, draw three poisoned bolts as ammo (at once) and shoot up to 110ft. with three charges of the launch bolt ability, which apparently stacked with a force effect :confused: for enhanced damage. I think the wolverine took 28 damage, half of which was poison. ("..........umm...what???") Anyway, I'm considering that _broken_, but I am still confused about the >10/day issue. 19/day for a 'vanilla' launch bolt seems like it would be fairly cheap, but I don't recall anything beyond 5/day. Would you mind citing a wondrous item example with math (even if it's approximate)? Thanks again for the info. I'm approaching this cautiously but I'm a slow learner.First off, launch Bolt is a spell with a casting time of 1 standard action. It works on one bolt at a time; that's why it is a cantrip. He cannot fire three bolts at once and claiming he can iswell outside the power of the spell. Secondly, I'd make he curse function a Bestow Curse spell (which he has to activate in combat) and limit the number of daily uses. Let me think about that last question of yours and look for an example.
Mr. Twist 06-15-06, 09:37 AM	I thought "curse spewing" as an item ability, like flaming? Do flaming weapons (weapon bonus +1) require uses per day or activation? Or do you mean the [50] charge add-on from Dragon Magazine (last year, I think) for a 50% discount?
breizh23 06-15-06, 07:43 PM	I wasn't sure how you were applying spew cursing (thus the ?/day). It seems like that type of enchantment should fall under the Craft Magic Arms & Armor feat on a mw gauntlet. From SRD: CRAFT MAGIC ARMS AND ARMOR [ITEM CREATION] Prerequisite: Caster level 5th. Benefit: You can create any magic weapon, armor, or shield whose prerequisites you meet. Enhancing a weapon, suit of armor, or shield takes one day for each 1,000 gp in the price of its magical features. To enhance a weapon, suit of armor, or shield, you must spend 1/25 of its features’ total price in XP and use up raw materials costing one-half of this total price. The weapon, armor, or shield to be enhanced must be a masterwork item that you provide. Its cost is not included in the above cost. You can also mend a broken magic weapon, suit of armor, or shield if it is one that you could make. Doing so costs half the XP, half the raw materials, and half the time it would take to craft that item in the first place.
RavenDrake 06-15-06, 08:06 PM	If you mean "Cursespewing" weapon enhancement, that's in the Book of Vile Darkness (I forget the exact specifics[which I couldn't print anyway] but it imposes a penalty to attacks, saves and Skills when it hits, and I think it allows a save on the effect, but I'm not positive). As for Launch Bolt, you can only activate a Magic Item as a standard action. Unless you say he can make it so he can launch 3 at once by spending extra charges, then he only gets to fire them one at a time. (By "half of it poison" on the damage, I'm assuming that he's including the HP lost to Constitution damaging poison, otherwise tell him this is D&D, not Final Fantasy, and Poison is Save versus Ability Damage or Status change[like falling asleep or going unconscious, for some of the more exotic ones]. No 3rd party "acid" poisons)
breizh23 06-15-06, 09:04 PM	I'm fairly sure he has BoVD, so thank you for the reference. To be fair, I was paraphrasing that sample encounter by memory, and I'm not sure what type of poison it was. It is potentially a fantastic combo. I just don't agree that he can make or afford it currently, especially as an artificer/4. Perhaps with Craft Arms', a quest to find the poison (depending on type), and a heck'a'lot more gold and xp/craft reserve. I haven't looked into the x/charges per standard action issue yet.
SalParadise 06-16-06, 04:07 AM	It sounds like the player is trying to make up rules for his own sake, and making you do the legwork. That seems rather unkind of him. Perhaps for future items he wishes to create, you should insist that he must show you the rules that allow him to do what it is he wants to do before you even consider it. That way you won't have to ask the boards about these things, let alone with half-incomplete information. (Not a criticism of you, just a comment that I think may be helpful)
zae 06-16-06, 06:47 AM	I pretty much agree with everything said here (especially that one should never get away with continuous Mage Armour for 2,000 GP), but one minor point: Unlimited-use curing is rarely broken. Consider that a wand of 50 charges of Cure Light is a mere 750 GP. If you need to use a whole wand over the course of one adventure, something weird is going on. At the end, you could easily buy another with spare change. Essentially, it just allows for after-combat healing while cutting out the bother of recording charges, and paying that little extra now to avoid paying another small amount later. I've never seen in broken - just don't make it "Use activated: any action less than standard". For instance, some items activate as "not an action", if you could do that with cure, then every round you'd fully restore all HP. Just saying I doubt you'd actually find that one broken, but that might be different for your campaign. In general, it sounds like he wants a lot more than he should be getting.
Merestil Haye 06-16-06, 07:46 AM	I cannot call to mind an item with any very high (ie >10) uses per day. For use / day items in general, the assumption is that the default number of uses per day is five. If he wants a different number of activations, multiply by that number of activations and divide by 5 to get the price. Launch Bolt, being a cantrip, is treated as a ˝ level spell for this purpose. The caster level could be anything from the minimum to be able to cast all the item prerequisites to the creator's caster level. For an item that can only duplicate this spell the CL is 1, as the spell is not in any way dependent on level. Thus the wondrous item formula is ˝ * 1 * 1,800 = 900gp. This buys you an item that can be activated as a standard action five times per day. For a greater or lesser number of activtations, multiply by that number and divide by 5. The fact is that in practice such an item would almost never be drained of daily uses, which is why I suggested that it should be effectively 10 uses are equivalent to unlimited. Consider how many times a day the character would use this, particularly as it requires the user to supply the crossbow bolt. Another issue is that it might be one of a number of powers. If it is, then the caster level of the Launch Bolt power has to be set to the CL of the item as a whole and then (probably) the price is multiplied by 1˝ for being a second unrelated power. For example, if the item had a 5th level spell as a prerequisite, the CL of the item has to be at least 9. Therefore instead of costing 900gp for 5 uses per day the cost of the Launch Bolt power goes up to 12,150gp. Again, this is simply scaled to the number of uses he actually wants. Activation as a swift action may be allowable, if you are so minded. I would allow it, but the item's price would be based on a Quickened Launch Bolt spell. Since Quicken adds four levels this becomes a 4th level spell, with a minimum CL of 7. The price then becomes 50,400gp for five uses per day, or 10,080 per daily use. If the item was at CL9 (owing to a prerequisite 5th level spell) the cost goes up to 12,960 per daily use. It may also be scaled up by by the 1˝ multiplier to 19,440 per use if this is not the most expensive power. I hope this helps a little.
Merestil Haye 06-16-06, 07:54 AM	I'm fairly sure he has BoVD, so thank you for the reference.And, from that comment, I assume that you do not? This opens up another can of worms. Access to rulebooks. If a player wants a particular item or spell from a rulebook that he owns but the DM does not, it's up to the two of them to hammer out a way to ensure that the rules are fair and available. Firstly, you don't have to let anything in sight unseen. It's unreasonable of the player to insist on anything he wants, as it may contradict some basic assumption of your worldsetting that he does not know about. This leads to my first recommendation : insist that prior to approving anything from any sourcebook, that you read the book. If you can not buy it (no funds, for example) then ask to borrow his copy for a week or so, and read the whole book. Lending you the book does not guarantee that approval will be forthcoming. Declining to make the loan, however, is grounds for refusal. Make this clear. Seccondly, if you do agree to allow the thing he wants, make its function conditional on his bringing the book to sessions. No book; the item inexplicably does not work and nothing can be done about it. Allowing the player to copy the bit he's using out and bringing just that may be acceptable, but you proofread the copy first, with the original to hand, before allowing it. You should either hold the excerpt between sessions or keep a copy (in case the original gets lost or becomes unreadable).
breizh23 06-16-06, 01:20 PM	It sounds like the player is trying to make up rules for his own sake, and making you do the legwork. That seems rather unkind of him. Perhaps for future items he wishes to create, you should insist that he must show you the rules that allow him to do what it is he wants to do before you even consider it. That way you won't have to ask the boards about these things, let alone with half-incomplete information. (Not a criticism of you, just a comment that I think may be helpful) Its Mr. Twist's campaign, which I've enjoyed as a player for the past year (with no previous D&D experience). Any initial legwork was a nod to his veteral status (10+ years I think), and to figure out why other people's pricing seemed so erratic. After all, my Shaper has his eyes on Craft Universal as well. And, from that comment, I assume that you do not? This opens up another can of worms. Access to rulebooks. This has been a blunder going both ways. We both keep busy schedules, often in different towns, so I was pleased when he let me run my Shaper without seeing much of the source. Of course the DM gets final say after reviewing the source, but this *is* something we need to work on. Unlimited-use curing is rarely broken. This may be true for us, sans-cleric. Maybe that wasn't the best example. :D I've also read that fresh wands are usually cheaper than other alternatives (eternal wands/etc.), but I'm too new to gauge this for this campaign. Heck, I'm probably only running a few sessions. Merestil, regarding the launch bolt calculation: That sounds about right to me, and greatly clarifies the >10/day idea. I'm not really sure how grabbing a bolt as ammo and releasing it as an attack can get whittled down to a swift action, but I guess suspension of disbelief gets left at the door for this game sometimes. ;) I'm inclined to allow the minimum CL for different abilities. Still +50% for other abilities, but we shall see how that debacle plays out. Thanks again for your help! I'm archiving the above posts for reference.
Merestil Haye 06-16-06, 01:43 PM	Merestil, regarding the launch bolt calculation: That sounds about right to me, and greatly clarifies the >10/day idea. I'm not really sure how grabbing a bolt as ammo and releasing it as an attack can get whittled down to a swift action, but I guess suspension of disbelief gets left at the door for this game sometimes. ;) I'm inclined to allow the minimum CL for different abilities. Still +50% for other abilities, but we shall see how that debacle plays out. Thanks again for your help! I'm archiving the above posts for reference.On the suspension of disbelief here, a couple of things that might help. Firstly, an archer can draw as many arrows as he can fire in a round. If he can fire 6 arrows, he can draw them. That rather suggests drawing an arrow is a free action or not an action at all, but rather subsumed into the act of firing the bow. Secondly, Launch Bolt has a target of "one crossbow bolt in your possession." I'd rule that drawing the bolt is part of the spellcasting, just as retrieving low-cost material components from a spell component pouch is part of the spellcasting action.