Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aryxbez 08-14-07, 06:03 AM	This is my small collection of masterwork ideas I will be using in my games. Also these work well since my campaign is low-magic right now, someday might become low-medium magic again. Otherwise it works with magic,read the rules in the sblock. Also if someone could come up with a word better than Masterworktude (yes I know it is not a word) Feel free to say so. I will be considering to get that one issue of Dragon with the masterwork stuff they included. So, what do you guys think of it? Masterwork Additions are no longer called Enhancement/Enchantment, it is now called Masterwork, Which all stack with magical enchantments, except for "Masterworktude" Upgrade. Also non-magical bonus, so it cannot be detected, dispelled or otherwise negated by magical means. WHY A NEW RULE? Because I merely felt like it, so I could call weapons a mastework bonus instead of a Enhancement bonus for the non-magical upgrades. Feel free to change it back to Enhancement if you really want to. Also since it is a new bonus They do stack as said above Following can be given to any type of weapon unless specified otherwise Masterworktude:weapon gains a Masterwork Bonus of +1-5 depending on the Price below, to attack and damage rolls. This also applies to any saves the weapon must make. Bonus Price +1 3000gp +2 9000gp +3 21,000gp +4 40,000gp +5 65,000gp Craft DC:adds +2 to the craft DC of the weapon per bonus, so a +3 masterwork weapon has a bonus DC of +6. Excessive Sharpening Edge:Makes Crit range of weapon up by +1, so 19-20 becomes 18-20, 18-20 becomes 17-20. However weapon becomes more prone to break, thus -2 hardness and -5 hp or 1/2 hp, which ever makes it end up with more HP. However extra crit range only lasts for so many swings as it gets dull. This applies when the weapon hits a target, and they have armor made of hard substance, Natural armor, otherwise a DM call on what wastes a use. Weapon Gains an amount of uses equal to it's original hardness penalized by this upgrade. So a weapon that Originally had hardness 5, now 3, will lose the sharpness after 3 truly blade dulling hits. Craft DC:+2 to the craft DC of the weapon. Price:+500 gp, 50gp per bolt or arrow being 500gp for 10 sharp arrows/bolts Cannot be applied to Bludgeoning weapons. Weighted:By adding weight to a weapon, cause it to deal more damage, however it causes the weapon to become more inaccurate. For every 5lbs added to the weapon, it gains +1 to damage, but -1 to attack. However light weapons have their weight x2 cannot be applied more than once to a light weapon. Craft DC:+1 per 5lbs added Price: Depends on metal, normal iron/steel:+100gp per uprgrade, Mithril:+250gp per upgrade, Cold Iron:+250gp per upgrade, and Admantine +500gp per upgrade any other metals I would say 300-500gp range would do depending on how rare and exotic it is. Applied only to melee weapons,Throwing weapons, and slings. Following can be given to any type of armor unless specified otherwise Masterworktude:Armor gains a Masterwork Bonus of +1-5 depending on the Price below, to AC. This also applies to any saves the armor must make. Bonus Price +1 2000gp +2 5000gp +3 10,000gp +4 28,000gp +5 32,000gp Craft DC:adds +2 to the craft DC of the armor per bonus, so a +3 masterwork armor has a bonus DC of +6. Fortification:Armor gains Light Fortification, 25% to negate critical hits. Craft DC:+5 to the armors DC Price:3000gp, can only be applied to Half Plate,Splint Mail, Stone Plate, and Mountain Plate.
tarkin 08-14-07, 11:22 AM	First, let me congratulate you for an intelligent, well thought out set of general principles. I was expecting cheap things, based on the low price of WOTC's stuff, which ignored the clear fact that bonuses like you suggest that are non-magical are of course superior to magical version. Sharp: I would not let Keen/Improved Crit stack with sharpened. You can use them both, but the keen/IC only works when the weapon becomes dull. I also think you meant (and would like it to be clarified) that while the sharpness is lost after so many hits, they can regain the sharpness by spending a full round action with a whetstone working on the blade. Weight: Nice effect, but you do realize it is a fools game? Power Attack would be a better choice than paying for this. I might consider reversing it, instead making it lighter than normal and allowing Weapon Finesse with any one handed weapon, at the cost of a reduction in damage. ------ Armor: Basic concept: I would not do this here. Core D20 rules give no benefit to AC for being masterwork, and I think that is reasonable and fair. How does more finely done armor increase general AC? Instead consider working with Max Dex and ACP. Like this: +1 to the Max Dex and -1 to the armor check penalty: 500 gp +2 to Max Dex and -2 to ACP: 2,000 gp +3 to Max Dex and -3 to ACP: 8,000 gp +4 to Max Dex and -4 to ACP: 32,000 gp +5 to Max Dex and -4 to ACP: 128,000 gp These affects would stack with the benefits from Mithral. Fortification: I like this concept a lot. But it is priced badly. The cheapest cost for magical fortification is 4,000 gp, while you have the non-magical version costing 3,000 gp. I would offer the non-magical for 5,000 gp.
Aryxbez 08-14-07, 06:29 PM	First, let me congratulate you for an intelligent, well thought out set of general principles. I was expecting cheap things, based on the low price of WOTC's stuff, which ignored the clear fact that bonuses like you suggest that are non-magical are of course superior to magical version. I thank you for the compliment, Thing was that I was going for stuff that had some balance, however being more Impractical to use over magic. Thus why Masterworktude +1 are more expensive than a magical +1. Sharp: I would not let Keen/Improved Crit stack with sharpened. You can use them both, but the keen/IC only works when the weapon becomes dull. I also think you meant (and would like it to be clarified) that while the sharpness is lost after so many hits, they can regain the sharpness by spending a full round action with a whetstone working on the blade. Well it is either Keen or Improved Crit, also the most that is going to be is a 14-20, on a scimitar or such. Also let us not forget it has limited use. Regaining the sharpness I was thinking about Whetstones, however unsure whether or not to make the wielder pay the price over and over again or to use like 2 whetstones to get it back. Also I would think it would take longer than 6 sec to sharpen back a blade. Weight: Nice effect, but you do realize it is a fools game? Power Attack would be a better choice than paying for this. I might consider reversing it, instead making it lighter than normal and allowing Weapon Finesse with any one handed weapon, at the cost of a reduction in damage. I am aware, and realized that a 2nd time when you just told me. I merely like the idea of a weapon becoming heavier and thus hurting more, but making it harder to wield. Do you have any ideas to make the Weighted better? I was thinking of making it +2 damage so that non 2-handers can have something. I'm not too sure on the weighted upgrade, mostly an idea I recalled from the Starwars RPG, with the whole damage for Accuracy. As far as the Armor thing goes, yes I know it is against the rules, I mean my weapons masterworktude bonus gives damage. Also I turned the Armor check Penalty into something else. I am pretty much using stuff from here, with stuff from this one small book called Heroes of High Favor: Dwarves (http://www.badaxegames.com/html/products.html#dwarves), Made by Badaxe games. So I mostly doone the armor thing as a Balance for lack of magical armor. Fortification: I like this concept a lot. But it is priced badly. The cheapest cost for magical fortification is 4,000 gp, while you have the non-magical version costing 3,000 gp. I would offer the non-magical for 5,000 gp. Actually According to the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#fortification) Fortification is a +1 bonus, since +1 is 1000 for armor, pricing it at 3000 is actually more, which I will likely change it to 2000gp so that it is still more expensive than Magical Fortification.
Waterhammer 08-15-07, 01:16 AM	You might try quality level, or just plain quality, in place of Masterworktude. Just a thought there is probably something even better.
Aryxbez 08-15-07, 05:22 PM	1st Quality weapon,2nd Quality etc doesn't really ring a good sound to me. 1st Degree, 2nd Degree, maybe but not quite. I like the suggestion, got any others?
SolenVlos 08-15-07, 07:11 PM	What if you create different names for each bonus? something like: seasoned weapon mastercrafted weapon flawless weapon perfect weapon legendary weapon something like that, but with cool names.
Aryxbez 08-15-07, 07:23 PM	You mean with weapon names like Spine slicer? Yea, that sounds like a good idea. Things like that I usually forget, which can be a bad thing as I am the DM. Then once the weapon is at it's pinnacle, I could call the weapon the Ultimate Devastator of Spine Dismembering! Which I could also see on a magical Item as well.
Aryxbez 08-16-07, 04:52 PM	I have come up with a flawed, yet another idea to make Weighted work a bit more. Make the Damage Die of the Weapon deal +2 more to it's damage, changing the die at a crappy pace. so 1d8 becomes 1d10, 1d10 becomes 1d12, then I thought after that it would be 14, so I thought make it round down to the nearest die, so once you get 16, I would guess 2d8 (-4 to hit). So after awhile, you would have to make the weapon have extra heaviness just to have the desired die of damage. Flawed, very much so, also another Flawed idea of mine is thus: gives a extra die of damage, starting at 1d4, and then that die advances by 1d6,1d8,1d10,1d12,2d6? make the Maximum something like 5 steps, however then that is an extra average of 7 damage for only -5 attack, crappy, yet a decent trade off I'm sure for non 2-handers. So, anyone else have anything to say about Weighted or about any other Masterwork upgrades or want to suggest I add to the Aryx Arsenal?
Waterhammer 08-17-07, 02:13 AM	Degrees of Quality: -1 Shoddy 0 Standard Grade +1 Improved +2 Superior +3 Masterwork +4 Legendary +5 Supreme I dunno, where's my thesaurus?
Aryxbez 08-25-07, 03:37 AM	come on guys, I know 4th edition is coming, but that is no reason to get into a apathetic like state, other people still play the game and otherwise need help too ya know. Remember, I can keep putting this thread back at the top every week or so for years to come. So, any further comments on my new Weighted ideas? I have come up with a flawed, yet another idea to make Weighted work a bit more. Make the Damage Die of the Weapon deal +2 more to it's damage, changing the die at a crappy pace. so 1d8 becomes 1d10, 1d10 becomes 1d12, then I thought after that it would be 14, so I thought make it round down to the nearest die, so once you get 16, I would guess 2d8 (-4 to hit). So after awhile, you would have to make the weapon have extra heaviness just to have the desired die of damage. Flawed, very much so, also another Flawed idea of mine is thus: gives a extra die of damage, starting at 1d4, and then that die advances by 1d6,1d8,1d10,1d12,2d6? make the Maximum something like 5 steps, however then that is an extra average of 7 damage for only -5 attack, crappy, yet a decent trade off I'm sure for non 2-handers.
Aryxbez 09-04-07, 01:21 AM	Once more I update this thread. I will likely go with the idea that when weighted is applied, it deals a extra die of damage. starting at 1d4 and progressing onward. Otherwise follows the rules I have set for Weighted, especially the penalties to attack. So, please, anymore comments would be appreciated. If need be I could change the title if it sounds too arrogant. which Is what I am not trying to sound like. I have come up with a flawed, yet another idea to make Weighted work a bit more. Make the Damage Die of the Weapon deal +2 more to it's damage, changing the die at a crappy pace. so 1d8 becomes 1d10, 1d10 becomes 1d12, then I thought after that it would be 14, so I thought make it round down to the nearest die, so once you get 16, I would guess 2d8 (-4 to hit). So after awhile, you would have to make the weapon have extra heaviness just to have the desired die of damage. Flawed, very much so, also another Flawed idea of mine is thus: gives a extra die of damage, starting at 1d4, and then that die advances by 1d6,1d8,1d10,1d12,2d6? make the Maximum something like 5 steps, however then that is an extra average of 7 damage for only -5 attack, crappy, yet a decent trade off I'm sure for non 2-handers.
Dog_O_War 09-04-07, 01:52 AM	I don't like what you've got laid out as examples, but I do like your idea (one I've been toying with myself, actually). The problem I see with masterworktude is that you are just pumping money into a weapon with no magical justification; the craft DC isn't that much higher (less than a MW mighty+4 composite bow infact for a +5 dagger) which means even a level one NPC craftsman can make +5 weapons. Also, you need to review the craft rules because with the prices you have listed, it would take a person who could achieve a 40 check result (really high) just over 14 years to make that +5 masterworktude dagger; definately not a capitol venture (damn me with my rules and my logic, eh?). I am more of a fan of what I like to call, craft "styles" - where with the proper knowledge and skill you can add additional unique properties to a weapon during (and sometimes after) the crafting process. To justify an increase in cost, you would be paying for the craftsmans' knowledge. When crafting yourself, the risk is in an increased craft DC. These styles modify the basic weapon itself and thus do not conflict with magical enhancement. Such and example would be: Serrated edge(MW): a property that can be applied to any slashing or piercing weapon at a +5 to the craft DC (both the weapon and the masterwork component). This adds one to the base damage of the weapon, but the owner of the weapon takes a -2 penalty to sunder checks, and the weapon itself has one less hit point than normal. What do you think of that?
Aryxbez 09-04-07, 05:21 PM	Serrated is okay I suppose, However I always viewed it as something that deals extra damage on a critical. Examples are not good enough? well if you have an idea for better ones, feel free to offer them to me. Also as far as DC's go, I use days for crafting, and not weeks, as I had found that stupid in my eyes. I think I will add that in the rules sblock.
Dog_O_War 09-04-07, 08:25 PM	Even in days that would still make crafting that +5 dagger two years at a check result of 40. I do like your ideas though. Perhaps I'll put out my own Arsenal of Masterwork Upgrades...
Aryxbez 09-04-07, 10:26 PM	Well, I had never said my idea was perfect, now I shall do what I always do when confronted with something flawed, test it out and analyze the conclusion. DC 12, +10(+5 mswk) =22 DC costs 65,000gp=650,000sp 1st lv expert +1 13 int, +3 Skill focus,+2 artisans tools mswk, +4 max ranks =+10 Gets someone to give him aid another for +2 and take 10=22 22x22=484sp 650,000sp Divided by 484= 1342.9 days?! 365 days in year =3 yrs 6-7 months? Sure the 1st level guy is looking pretty bad, but he is 1st level! He has to have guts to try to pull something like this. 10th Expert, +13 ranks,+3 Skill focus,+2 15 int, +2 tools, +2 Aid another action=+22 or +42 with the +20 smithy magical item in Races of Stone. Taking 10=32, 32x22=704sp supersmithy, 52x22=1144sp /650,000sp=568 days =1.5 years 650,000sp Divided 704=923 days =2.5 years? 20th Expert, +23 ranks,+3 Skill focus,+4 18 int, +2 tools, +2 Aid another action=+34 or +54 with the +20 smithy magical item in Races of Stone. taking 10= 64x22=1408sp 650,000sp=461.6 days =1 year, 3 months, 6 days Seems my work is messy and flawed. Yet I believe I have found an easy solution to this, just make it crafted in form of Gold. so that way the time is not as bad. If done so, a 1st level crafter could craft one in 4 months. Which again is then flawed as masterwork items are then easy to make. So really what is your solution Dog_O_War? I also thank you for pointing this out to me.
Dog_O_War 09-05-07, 12:58 PM	The only real problem is the masterworktude. My solution for what you currently have would be for the bonuses to be altered slightly, giving it a more reasonable price. What I will offer is a model based off of the magic weapon chart. Bonus Price: +1 300gp +2 1200gp +3 2700gp +4 4800gp +5 7500gp This would start at the base masterwork check of 20 for +1 and add triple the enhancement to the DC (+2 is 6 to the DC, +3 is 9, etc...). This keeps it in the realm of possible to craft, but it severely limits the the unskilled's ability to make such items (the armour prices would be these numbers cut in half but would keep the same DC). This gives a person with a +10 to his check a limited 25% chance per week to succeed, making it a foolish option. (the math for a person who can achieve a thirty average roll) dagger +1; 20sp DC: 12x30 = 360 (completed in 1/3 week) masterwork component; 3000sp DC: 20x30 = 600 (completed in 5 weeks) - just over one month dagger +2; 20sp DC: 12x30 = 360 (completed in 1/3 week) masterwork component; 12000sp DC: 26x30 = 780 (completed in just under 15 and 1/2 weeks) - about 4 months Dagger +3; masterwork component; 27000sp DC: 29x30 = 870 (completed in 31 weeks) - about 8 months Dagger +4; masterwork component; 48000sp DC: 32x30 = 960 (completed in 50 weeks) - just under 1 year - This can't be created by this person with an average roll! Dagger +5; masterwork component; 75000sp DC: 35x30 = 1050 (completed in just under 71 and 1/2 weeks) - 1 year and about 5 months. - This can't be created by this person with an average roll! This is the math on the above solution, which (for me) seems fitting given the idea; what is done here is you have replaced magic and price for creation time. The other suggestion I will make regarding this is an additional, "craftsman's costs" with the DC increase I listed above Bonus Price: +1 300gp +2 600gp plus 1000gp CC +3 900gp plus 4000gp CC +4 1200gp plus 12000gp CC +5 1500gp plus 30000gp CC This would make crafting a +5 dagger a mere 3 and 1/2 months, but it would cost you 31502gp. This would give you the faster craft time you desire, and make the weapon cost alot, but it still bugs me that you are making weapons "+5" from mundane crafters (I know they don't cut through magic DR or have the increased hardness, but at the relatively low cost of +2000 gp, you could have the +5 weapon cut through magic DR for a much cheaper cost. Not to mention the added bonus of making it a "+14" weapon without breaking the rules. all at the cost of some hardness [which is solved again by making it adamantine]). This is the best I can offer without hours of number crunching and research. I hope this is helpful. Also, I will make a different thread detailing my pros/cons masterwork weapons thread soon.
Aryxbez 09-05-07, 05:26 PM	Interesting, however my masterwork ideas are mostly pretty specific. That it is Supposed to be more expensive than magic as it is impractical compared to magic. Also gives PC's to spend their money on, as well as any NPC's that might own them. Also the +1-5 bonus does NOT stack with the magical bonus. However things like weighted and such do. Since my game is low-magic, means people are not generating Magical weapons all about, although some Cities still have magical items since they were likely not as harmed as the other civilizations were back in the last campaign. As I run the same world and such like in a series. Also I had figured a solution, although not a solid one. That when crafting, use gold instead of silver for crafting time, and cut the masterworktude price in half for time so 65,000gp=32500gp for time purposes only. So that way a 10th level craftsman could craft it in a months and a half or so. Base DC being 20? I think I might go with 15=simple weapons 20=Martial 25-30 for Exotic Although I do like your idea as well. If need be, I might just use your idea. This Masterwork Thread should be interesting read I'm sure. Post me the link and any more comments of my stuff here once you set that thread up. Also I need to know, what is your idea for Weighted? here is my ideas. I have come up with a flawed, yet another idea to make Weighted work a bit more. Make the Damage Die of the Weapon deal +2 more to it's damage, changing the die at a crappy pace. so 1d8 becomes 1d10, 1d10 becomes 1d12, then I thought after that it would be 14, so I thought make it round down to the nearest die, so once you get 16, I would guess 2d8 (-4 to hit). So after awhile, you would have to make the weapon have extra heaviness just to have the desired die of damage. Flawed, very much so, also another Flawed idea of mine is thus: gives a extra die of damage, starting at 1d4, and then that die advances by 1d6,1d8,1d10,1d12,2d6? make the Maximum something like 5 steps, however then that is an extra average of 7 damage for only -5 attack, crappy, yet a decent trade off I'm sure for non 2-handers.
Dog_O_War 09-05-07, 06:42 PM	I am writing the ideas I have for masterwork weapons and such down on paper before I post, so I can better sort them out (rather than posting a jumbled mess of words like I usually do when I get long-winded). As for wieghted... hows about; Weighted weapons have higher average damage, and are more effectively power-attacked with. such a weapon sould look like, Warhammer: 2d4 instead of 1d8, or Falchion: 2d3+2 instead of 2d4. Weighted weapons used for power attacking add 1 to the damage total for one handed, and two for two handed. (the power attack bonus helps make it so that light weapons do not gain as much of a bonus [as they can't be power attacked with] which is what I think the spirit of what you had in mind was). this would cost an additional amount equal to the weapon (including masterwork). Or, perhaps weighted weapons have a higher critical multiplier (or maybe just do bonus damge on a critical hit), at the cost of -2 to attack rolls.
Aryxbez 09-05-07, 11:41 PM	My whole weighted idea was from the idea that medieval warriors had made their weapons heavier so that they could kill their foes easier. As I was told that warriors could and did had 40lb like weapons. However this is also so I could literally have a 40lb sword, which is always cool. Making the damage a higher average might work, however starts to look to iffy once random +2 and such come around. Amplify powerattack? or Crits? I hand not thought of these, however I am considering going with this idea. that it deals extra damage, in these steps 1d4,1d6,1d8,1d10,1d12(max?) if not then 2d6 at the most. While giving -1 attack for each advancement, will likely go with up to 5 steps or +25lbs for most weapons. Only problem with this is that Powerattack does do better. As you can by comparing below. However as you know by reading the 1st post, this can be applied to sling bullets! so you can be packing 20lb spheres. Also one-handed characters or two-weapon fighters got something I'm sure. Also don't talk about TWF penalties as I got me fixes for that stuff. 1d4=2.5, -1, Pow=+2 1d6=3.5, -2, Pow=+4 1d8=4.5, -3, Pow=+6 1d10=5.5, -4, Pow=+8 1d12=6.5, -5, Pow=+10