Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Finarin Panjoro 01-13-05, 05:44 PM	I'm about to have four assassins go after the PCs in my campaign. My question is this what constitutes being aware of the assassins as a threat? Here's the scene: The PCs are in a crowded tavern where four assassins in disguise are stalking them (no chance of being recognized because the PCs have never seen them before and aren't drawing attention to themselves). The assassins study the PCs for three rounds. On the fourth they pull daggers and move close to the PCs. At this point their disguise may be seen through because they're moving closer to the PCs (drawing attention) and did something suspicious (pulling daggers even though they're keeping them hidden). So the PCs should get a chance to spot the daggers (Spot vs. Sleight of Hand) and to see through the disguise (Spot vs. disguise). I'm guessing one spot check against both DCs. If they beat the lower DC (Sleight of hand) they see the daggers, if they beat the higher DC (disguise) they also see through the disguises. Now comes the surprise round. If a PC spotted the assassins in the previous round and wins initiative in the surprise round he can shout a warning to the others. If he shouts Ambush! or Assassins! does this prevent death attacks from functioning agaisnt the other PCs? They know there is danger, but not from where (they have themselves not identified the assassins and so are unaware that they specifically represent a danger). Or am I slicing the bread a too thin here? My current thought is that if they are spotted, initiative is won by a PC, and he warns the others, then all of the death attacks are prevented, though normal sneak attacks would certainly still be possible against flat-footed characters. Does that sound about right?
ClementWillowbreaker 01-13-05, 08:39 PM	For the specific situation you presented, as a DM, I would say that your intepretation is the fair, dramatic, and best solution that does not end with the half of the party with poor Fort save progression dead on a barroom floor. It is, of course, not the one suggested by the RAW :weep: The assassins must have three rounds of study, during which they must be undetected as an enemy. At the end of the three rounds, that requirement ends. They then have three rounds to make a successful sneak attack. If they do, they can use Death Attack. With the RAW and the circumstances you describe, everyone not able to ward off a sneak attack for three rounds from their assassin is vunernable. If you want to give your players more slack and a fighting chance (and since they have gotten into this much trouble already, you don't want to TPK and have to start screwing them all over again from scratch :) ), you can extend the amount of time the assassins need. In a crowded bar, line of sight is constantly broken up, patrons and jostling the assassins, etc. This means for all them to time it right, more than 18 seconds would be required, or perhaps only a few of them manage to prep their death attack correctly, and the others get dragged along by the signal before they are ready. Four people staring intently might warrant Spot/Sense Motive checks, as well. If you give the players a few rounds to sense something is wrong, and they are properly cautious, through their own "skill and sense", they might avoid death, rather than just DM mercy. By rolling secretly, you can induce the stress and danger of an assassin attack, while the players themselves mechanically were never at risk, since you already decided they will notice the assassins. That is always good. Percentile rolls, followed by a drunken orc knocking a drink into the face of an advancing stranger, attracting attention that reveals more dangerous foes causes an equal sense of, "Woah, we just got really lucky, didn't we?"
Finarin Panjoro 01-14-05, 10:11 AM	Thanks ClementWillowbreaker, So by the RAW the spotting would have to take place during the three rounds of study, once that is complete the first successful sneak attack by each assassin against their particular target is a death attack whether they're alerted or not. So in the scenario I just described I still have a very likely TPK, which of course is undesirable for the continuance of my campaign. :D The rules I use for heavy crowds (such as in the bar) provides everyone in the crowd with a +4 cover bonus to AC, a -10 ft speed penalty, and a max sight range of 30 feet. Perhaps I should focus on the detection of the assassins go signal. They would need a signal to indicate readiness to move on their targets. I could have each assassin make a bluff check to transmit a secret message to the others. Normally this would be opposed by a sense motive check (for detecting a secret message in a conversation), but in this case I think I'd use a Spot check just to notice the signal. That gives the PCs four chances to Spot the assassins giving the go signal when they're still 20 feet away. So at the end of the 3 rounds of study it goes like this: Round 1: The go signal is given (4 Bluff vs. Spot checks for PCs, -2 penalty to Spot for distance, -5 for being distracted). PC success initiates a surprise round. Round 2: The assassins all move toward their targets (Spot vs. disguise and Spot vs. Sleight of Hand at this point, no penalties to Spot). PC success initiates a surprise round (meaning anyone aware at this point won't be flat-footed when the assassins reach them next round). I'll also roll a Spot check at +1 for the crowd against their sleight of hand to see if anyone notices their drawn daggers perhaps raising an alarm, "Hey, he's got a knife!". Round 3: If the assassins still haven't been spotted then this is the surprise round and the last round any death attack can be made. Any PC who avoids a sneak attack on this round (with a +4 cover bonus from the crowd) need not fear another death attack. I'll have the assassins taking 10 on all of their checks (except disguise of course) so I'll already know all of the DCs for all of the PCs checks in this case. Does this sound fair and supported by the RAW (I like to manage both if at all possible)?
Gilean 01-14-05, 10:40 AM	Too easy on players. All assassins should have quick draw, so they can just come near and use their surprise round to stab the target. Give sense motive or spot check, depending on player activity (if they are drinking, assassins will likely wait until he is really drunk). Currently your assassins start with slim chance of detection at first round, pretty high at second (if any member of group has good spot, almost assured) and lousy chance of hitting in final round. And be sure not to allow players in full plates in the middle of tavern without activity on their side. Also, no weapons should be drawn.
tarkin 01-14-05, 10:40 AM	The act of studying the party itself can be noticed. It is not ignoring the person, it is staring at them. Anyone being studied by an Assasin should get a Spot check to realize that someone is staring at them. The DM should not tell them it is an assasin studying them for three rounds, just that some creep is staring at them. Also note, victims still have a chance of 'spotting' invisible creatures - it is just -20 to the spot. The best way to do the study thing is from inside a leomund's hut. The people inside can see outside, but no one can see inside. This lets an assasin study without being spotted. Of course, the hut it itself may arouse suspicion.
ClementWillowbreaker 01-14-05, 11:09 AM	Finarin, that breakdown is nice. I might not even mind dying after my DM showed me that little sequence of events, to stop my wailing. I would just make a better Spotter next time. Good job!
Finarin Panjoro 01-14-05, 12:19 PM	Too easy on players. All assassins should have quick draw, so they can just come near and use their surprise round to stab the target. However these assassins don't have quickdraw so they don't have that option. They do however have maxed ranks in Sleight of Hand and Disguise. It would be easy to plan the assassination attempt so that the PCs have no chance of survival, but that wouldn't be much fun. Tarkin, Okay, if they get a Spot check to realize someone is staring at them and they succeed what are the consequences of this? Does this prevent the death attack? It doesn't seem like it would from the RAW. I suppose the consequences are that it would be much harder to succeed in a sneak attack now. The assassin would have to close the distance, pull his dagger undetected while being observed (another spot check), and then win initiative to catch his target flat-footed. Should the PC get a Sense Motive check to realize the guy is about to attack? Would it be opposed by Bluff or use the DC 20 check for a hunch? If no Sense Motive check is allowed then if the assassin did have quickdraw (which eliminates the second spot check for the PC) how would you ever detect an assassin that's about to kill you? If you notice the guy is staring at you should you get a chance to peirce his disguise and realize he's an assassin? That doesn't seem to make sense. If you peirce his disguise it seems like all you'd realize is 'he's in disguise'. Perhaps I'll handle it like this: Study Phase: Spot checks by PCs to notice an assassin staring at them (one check per PC to detect the particular assassin studying them) opposed by Hide. Spot checks have a -2 for distance and -5 for distraction (the crowd). May be an impossible check for many of the players if the assassins take 10 which they will. Round 1: Go signal given by assassins. Spot check only for PCs who noticed they were being stared at. Opposed by Bluff. -2 to Spot for distance. Success allows that PC to identify the other three assassins (but not that they are assassins). Round 2: Assassins move in, drawing daggers. Spot checks for all PCs opposed by Sleight of Hand (-5 penalty for distraction). Those who previously noticed their assassin are not considered distracted (no penalty). If they also noticed the go sign they only have to beat the lowest Sleight of Hand DC of all four assassins to realize the danger and get a +2 circumstance bonus to the Spot check (they're definitely suspicious at this point). Any PC success initiates the surprise round now (assassins are not in range to strike and must use the surprise round to close to melee range). Round 3: Assassins strike. Initiative for anyone aware of them, all others surprised. Any successful sneak attack this round is a death attack. No further death attacks are possible after this round. Does that sound better?
Gilean 01-14-05, 01:36 PM	How intelligent are those assassins? 14 at least, I assume. That's not exactly stupid. Give your assassins a fair chance, which you seem to be doing, at another glance. Also, if they can use message or some such spell, make them. Assassins are supposed to be deadly, they are high-level characters and very trained, too. What is their alignment? One of them being chaotic might cause impulsive attacks, if the situation permit. Lawful characters, on the other hand, might not use opportunities for the fear of destroying "grand scheme".
Someone 01-14-05, 01:45 PM	The assassin's death attack only works on a successful sneak attack. There are a two big things that can negate it- the assassin could miss, or the attack isn't counted as a sneak attack. The first isn't too likely (unless the PCs go to the bar with their armor on), and the second is either from uncanny dodge or beating the assassins on initiative during the surprise round. Even then, its still a sneak attack, 4d6 (or whatever d6) can still do a lot of damage. Not to mention the assassins likely poisoned their daggers. Oh, and where are the PCs standing/ sitting? If they are all looking a particular direction (an assassin accomplice could create a diversion), then the PCs wouldn't get a chance to spot the assassins behind them. Though they might get a listen check (opposed by sleight of hand, and hefty penalties for the crowd) to hear the "shink" of the daggers being drawn.
tarkin 01-14-05, 02:40 PM	If someone is trying to create a diversion, that is a Bluff check opposed by either Sense Motive or Spot. Nothing I have seen here indicates the players were given a reasonable chance to recognize what was going on in time. The 3 rounds study time is the assasins' main weakness, anything that "counters" it, must be rigorously checked for problems. No matter how crowded the bar/what diversion is done, the PC's have to fail a check to not notice the assasins' studying them. A super crowded bar/really good diversion (nudity...) is worth no more than a +4 circumstance bonus to that check.
Finarin Panjoro 01-14-05, 03:40 PM	Nothing I have seen here indicates the players were given a reasonable chance to recognize what was going on in time. What would you recommend? I figured the Spot during the study phase, the Spot for the go signal, and the Spot for the daggers was significant warning. Though I agree none of them outright prevents the death attack from being possible. But how do you recognize from someone staring at you that they intend to kill you? Perhaps a Sense Motive check if they're spotted during the study phase (opposed by Bluff, attempting to look harmless)? A super crowded bar/really good diversion (nudity...) is worth no more than a +4 circumstance bonus to that check. The PCs have no idea there are any assassins after them at this point. They are in a very crowded bar, so crowded that everyone has cover. They are in the bar looking for a specific person to talk to or will be engaged in talking to that person once they find them. I think this constitutes the spotter being distracted and thus the -5 penalty noted in the Spot skill should apply IMO. If the spotter's attention is drawn to the assassins then all further spot checks would not have this penalty. Someone, My understanding of the death attack is that even if the assassin misses his attack if he succeeds at another sneak attack (by flanking or feinting in combat) before his 3 rounds are up then that attack is still a death attack. Only making the attack and having it successfully saved against prevents trying again within the time limit.
Someone 01-15-05, 12:56 PM	Yes, you are correct that the next sneak attack from the assassin is a death attack. What I was trying to say was that if the assassin doesn't get a sneak attack, they can't use their death attack ability. Things such as not getting hit, or not being in a position to be sneak attacked (not flat-footed or flanked), would prevent the assosiated death attack. If the PCs survive the surprise round (and have a good initiative check), then they are no longer flat-footed, and unless they are tactical idiots (no offense), are unlikely to allow themselves to be flanked by the assassins.
Finarin Panjoro 01-18-05, 09:59 AM	The PCs are very likely not going to get flanked. The encounter is along one wall of the bar and they will likely figure out that they're fighting "sneak attackers" within the first seconds of the fight. Plus one of the PCs has Uncanny Dodge. I think my last posted progression will be acceptable. But if anyone (tarkin?) has another suggestion I'd very much like to here it. Thanks all, Finarin
Rulebook 01-18-05, 09:20 PM	well, unless you have a reason to spot a guy with daggers in a crowded inn, you're not gonna notice. i guarantee you the barmaid has one. next... see through the disguise? do you mean the PC's have seen them before, or do assasins in your world have the word EVIL BASTARD tattoed on thier foreheads and always dressin black with any number of obviously distinguishing marks? and if your pc's do nothing better when they go to a bar then get paranoid about people trying to stab them, then obviously you dont know the function of a bar. and something to remember... "does not detect the assassin or recognise him as an enemy" note the part after "or". yes my friends that means the assassin can carry on a conversation and order drinks for the group, and get all buddy buddy if they want. though the spot check for him drawing the weapon might foil the sneak attack attempt. why on earth you didnt give these assassins quick draw is beyond me. also remember poison use, so even if their death attack dosent work, the poison might.
primemover003 01-18-05, 09:43 PM	You're giving them Three chances to Spot the Assassins. I know if any of my PC's were to notice someone staring intently at them in a tavern (that's not an attractive member of the opposite sex) they'd get mighty suspicious. Assassins are supposed to be deadly. You wouldn't have come up with this encounter if the PC's didn't warrant it somehow within the campaign... let it play out. You might have some PC deaths, you might not. Plan for it if you did have some die... what are they going to do? Do they have allies willing to raise them or are they on their own? After bringing back their fallen comrades I'm sure the party'll be more than eager to find and beat whomever ordered the hit. It's a great way to set a plot hook or give the campaign a needed kick in the pants. Sounds like a great encounter... probably the most difficult of the session (at least it should be).
Finarin Panjoro 01-18-05, 10:12 PM	Thanks for the comments guys, There are very good reasons why these assassins don't have quickdraw or use poison, but they aren't relevant to this scenario or how it would operate. Take my word for it, there are very good reasons. Rulebook, The PCs haven't seen the assassins before, but if they notice that they are wearing armor under their normal clothes then they can reasonably assume that the assassins are more than they appear. They may also realize that they are a threat because of the staring issue. As I've said it would be easy to plan it so that the PCs have no chance of survival, but that won't be much fun for them (which is the point of playing after all). primemover003, I think the three chances are reasonable given the lethality of the situation. Keep in mind the first Spot check is at a -7 penalty, the Sense Motive check is at -7 penalty unless they already made the previous Spot check, and the final Spot check (for seeing the daggers) is at a -5 penalty unless they already succeeded at an earlier check. There is still a high degree of probability that the PCs will fail all of these checks since the assassins are taking 10 and have significant bonuses to the check result from the situation. Failing all of that the only PC likely to avoid a sneak attack in those three rounds is the barbarian with Uncanny Dodge. These assassins have high initiatives, high bluffs for feinting, and high tumbles for moving into flanking. Even the barbarian can be feinted so its possibly even he could recieve a death attack. I suppose I could eliminate the Sense Motive check for the go signal, but then I'll need another method for them to coordinate the strike. More comments would be welcome.
Rulebook 01-19-05, 12:11 AM	3 rounds of observing dosent mean staring intently guys. looking for a few seconds then looking away but keeping sidelong glances every now and then works just as well. and if a PC adventurer sees anything wrong with somebody wearing armor to a tavern, they need to check themselves in the mirror every now and then. lol
The Simbul 01-19-05, 12:38 AM	The Assasins should separate the group and take them out individually. Like one of them diguised as an attractive courtesan who leads him up to a bedroom covered by a silence spell and with the other three assasins hidden within.
Reye 01-19-05, 02:20 AM	So, why are they closing to Melee range? A thrown dagger will kill just as well as a stabbing (if they are within 30 feet) and there's no need to waste a round closing. Granted, the characters will have cover, but at that level even a -8 penalty to the roll isn't a big deal for an decent level assassin with a decent dex.
ClementWillowbreaker 01-19-05, 10:15 AM	Because Death attacks have to be melee attacks, unless they cast that lvl3 or 4 Assassin spell from the CV to allow a ranged one. And the description says "concentrate", not sidelong glances. And everyone, he's not looking for ways to kill all his PCs- that is easy for the "god" of a game world. Quickdraw is optimum for these assassins to wipe out this party in this scenario- that isn't much versimilitude if Deceitful is a better feat for these assassins in general.
Finarin Panjoro 01-19-05, 10:25 AM	Folks, I was hoping to avoid mentioning this because it will just confuse the issue, but the assassins aren't high level. They are a 3rd party created assassin base class and each of them is only 2nd level. They only have 2 feats (improved initiative and weapon finesse). They don't have spells or access to high level magic, they don't have high attack bonuses, they don't have high intelligence scores (they all have Int 10), and they aren't highly experienced. That being said their death attack works exactly the same as a standard PrC assassin (with a much lower save and no paralyzation ability). I appreciate the tactical assistance, but this is how the scene is going to happen. I just need mechanical assistance to figure out what the appropriate checks are to fairly resolve this scenario. Rulebook, I assumed pretty much the same thing, but if you've ever been watched by someone in a crowd or tried doing it yourself even short glances can be noticed by an observant person. It's hard, but that's why I've applied the modifier for being distracted by the crowd. The PCs wouldn't see anything wrong with someone wearing armor in a crowd. However it is concievable that they would be suspicious of someone concealing their armor in a crowd while watching them. This is a bar full of commoners. There's no question the PCs stand out, but if the assassins wore their armor openly they'd stand out as well. Remember the assassins can't be recognized as a threat. Any armored person in that setting could be considered a threat because they'd be the only other armored people in the bar other than the PCs themselves. Thus the assassins try to hide their armor (disguise skill). However I'm not planning to use a disguise check anyway. I agree it doesn't really apply in this case. The Simbul, There's no way the group will separate like that. They're in the bar looking for a bad guy they expect to fight and the assassins know it. That's how they lured the PCs here in the first place, by dangling the prospect of capturing a hated foe. Besides that would be a great way for me to actually kill them all. I need at least a few of them to survive to continue the campaign. The PCs are too low level (4th) to afford multiple raise deads (they could maybe come up with two if they called in a bunch of favors). Reye, Like I said they're low level assassins a -8 penalty to the attack is a virtual certainty that they will miss. Also ClementWillowbreaker is correct, death attacks have to be melee attacks. It also makes follow up attacks more difficult because they can't flank or feint in combat for additional sneak attacks. They'd have to attack at range with a virtual certainty of missing, close the distance (which with the movement penalty for the crowd would require a double move), and then attack on the third round (meaning they can't feint since they don't have improved feint) and at which point the targets will likely have taken a formation that prevents flanking. If they close to melee range they can get a sneak attack in the surprise round, possibly another by winning initiative in the first normal round, and possibly a third by feinting in the first round and attacking in the second. They also have to feint or flank the barbarian to get a sneak attack which requires them to be in melee range. I'm still leaning toward this progression (from my previoius post): Study Phase: Spot checks by PCs to notice an assassin staring at them (one check per PC to detect the particular assassin studying them) opposed by Hide. Spot checks have a -2 for distance and -5 for distraction (the crowd). May be an impossible check for many of the players if the assassins take 10 which they will. Round 1: Go signal given by assassins. Spot check only for PCs who noticed they were being stared at. Opposed by Bluff. -2 to Spot for distance. Success allows that PC to identify the other three assassins (but not that they are assassins). Round 2: Assassins move in, drawing daggers. Spot checks for all PCs opposed by Sleight of Hand (-5 penalty for distraction). Those who previously noticed their assassin are not considered distracted (no penalty). If they also noticed the go sign they only have to beat the lowest Sleight of Hand DC of all four assassins to realize the danger and get a +2 circumstance bonus to the Spot check (they're definitely suspicious at this point). Any PC success initiates the surprise round now (assassins are not in range to strike and must use the surprise round to close to melee range). Round 3: Assassins strike. Initiative for anyone aware of them, all others surprised. Any successful sneak attack this round is a death attack. No further death attacks are possible after this round. Though I could also see them using round 1 as part of the study phase (since they can take other actions while studying) so that they would have Round 2, 3, and 4 to succeed in their death attacks. I wouldn't have them use round 2 to study because if they are noticed pulling their daggers while studying then the death attacks are voided. If they are noticed after the studying is complete they can still make a death attack within the next three rounds. Any thoughts?
tarkin 01-19-05, 11:11 AM	3 rounds of observing is a Full round action. You are not allowed to move during that time. That much concentration is DEFINITELY noticeable. It would not negate the assasin's studing, but it will defintely warn the players - possibly allowing them to : 1) Get up and go away 2) Get up and tell them to stop staring at me. 3) Definitely NOT be flat-footed.
Beamup 01-19-05, 11:12 AM	Well, the opposed roll to intercept a secret message is Bluff vs. Sense Motive, not Spot. Which makes a great deal more sense, too - it's not noticing that the guy just raised his eyebrows (or whatever), which is what Spot would be appropriate for. The point is recognizing that the seemingly innocuous motion was a message - Spot doesn't cover that at all. Also, the assassins should benefit from cover as well as distraction. The former representing the fact that there are people in the way blocking the PCs' view, the latter representing the fact that there are all these other people doing things too. Plus the distance. Additionally, noticing somebody giving a signal is NOT going to let you determine who that signal went to. So I would do it giving a PC a single Spot check, opposed to the assassins' individual Hides, at each step. Any Hide they beat, they become aware of that assassin. Then, at each step, they get another opposed roll vs. each assassin they are aware of to notice what's going on. The PCs can be in any one of three states vs. any assassin: - Unaware. Must succeed on a Spot check or be alerted by another PC to make further rolls. -5 distraction penalty. - Aware but not actively watching. -2 distraction penalty. - Actively watching (i.e. the player has stated their PC is keeping an eye on whoever they noticed - no prompting by DM, since if you ask, they'll certainly say YES!). No distraction penalty. So they're aware of 0-4 assassins and, if aware of 1 or more, can be actively watching or not. Summary: Study Phase Each PC gets one Spot roll at -11 (distraction+cover+distance), opposed by the individual Hide results. Becomes aware of any assassin they beat, as a person watching them. If aware of any assassin, can point him out to the other PCs (all are then aware of that assassin). PCs aware of at least one assassin could choose to actively watch now. Round 1: Go signal Each PC gets one Spot roll at -11 (or -8 if aware of an assassin already), opposed by the individual Hide results of any assassin of whom they are still unaware. Becomes aware of any assassin they beat. Each PC gets one Sense Motive roll at -6 (if actively watching) or -8 (if not), opposed by the individual Bluff results of any assassin of whom they are aware. Knows a "ready" message was passed if they win, but not to who. PCs could now inform others of new assassins spotted and/or message passed. Round 2: Move in Each PC gets one Spot roll at -9 (no more distance) or -6 if aware of an assassin already, opposed by the individual Hide results of any assassin of whom they are still unaware. Becomes aware of any assassin they beat. Each PC gets one Spot roll at -6 (-4 if actively watching or aware a message was passed), opposed by the individual Sleight of Hand results of any assassin of whom they are aware. If one or more PCs succeed, surprise round for assassins and any PC who succeeded. Assassins start 20' away with sheathed daggers. Round 3: Strike If it gets this far, the assassins (only) get a surprise round. They start next to their targets with unsheathed daggers. There's more rolling, but it's more consistent with the written rules in some cases (Sense Motive vs. Bluff instead of Spot, Spot vs. SoH only if closely watching), makes more sense (no auto-aware of all assassins from one), and actually gives them better odds (more rolls to notice them). Additionally, it considers the possibilities that players will think to warn the others or not.
Beamup 01-19-05, 11:14 AM	3 rounds of observing is a Full round action. You are not allowed to move during that time. Incorrect. To quote the Assassin Death Attack description: While studying the victim, the assassin can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the assassin or recognize the assassin as an enemy.
Finarin Panjoro 01-19-05, 01:56 PM	Tarkin and Beamup, Thank you both for your comments. Tarkin, I have to agree with Beamup that the rules make it pretty clear that other actions (such as movement, giving a signal, and drawing weapons) can all be done during the assassin's study phase. I would say any kind of attention intensive action (most full round actions, combat, casting, etc) would not be doable because they'd require removing your attention from the target. Beamup, Your break down makes sense, but I'm not sure where you're getting the cover modifier for the hide check. Isn't cover required to be able to make a hide check at all? I've never seen a cover bonus for hiding mentioned anywhere before. That's why I think the distraction and range penalties are all I would apply (total -7). I agree it would be Bluff vs. Sense Motive to notice the go signal (it would fall under interpreting a secret message). But at the very least it is going to alert the Spotter that he's sending the signal to someone else. So I would say: Round 1: Study phase: Spot vs. Hide (-7 penalty range and distraction). Success prevents death attacks against that character. Round 2: Go Signal: Sense Motive vs. Bluff (-2 penalty for range) only if round 1 check is successful. Otherwise no chance of seeing the signal (the assassins are not being observed so no one can detect their secret message). If the signal is noticed a Spot vs. Hide check (-2 penalty for range) is made to identify the other assassins (who are also giving the ready signal). Last round of study by assassins. Round 3: Approach and draw weapons: Spot vs. Sleight of Hand (-7 penalty for distraction and range) unless Round 1 check was successful. If the Go Signal was also noticed then a +2 bonus is gained on this check. If warned by a PC who did succeed at his first spot check then no penalty for distraction is applied to the other PCs. Success initiates a suprise round with the assassins 20 feet away and weapons sheathed. Round 4: Assassins strike: Surprise round for assassins only if still undetected. Death attacks may be made this round and the next so long as they make a successful sneak attack against their particular target. So the degrees of success would be: 1-Spotting the studying assassins: best outcome, completely prevents death attack and provides a chance to see the go signal and identify the other assassins. 2-Spotting the approaching assassins: initiates the encounter at range preventing flat-footedness on the part of anyone who wins initiative the following round making death attacks difficult but not impossible. 3-Complete surprise: The assassins get to make death attacks against each PC that they can catch flat-footed and may get a second chance if they win initiative the following round. Does that sound fair?
Beamup 01-19-05, 02:20 PM	The "cover" bonus was meant to reflect my feeling that a dense crowd is easier to hide in than normal. Since, as you pointed out, cover or concealment is needed to hide at all, I should really have called it a circumstance bonus. However, I interpret the rules somewhat differently than you, it appears. I believe that, in order to avoid being surprised/death attacked, you not only need to be aware of the enemy's presence, but also aware of their hostile intent. If you see people watching you, or even walking towards you, that doesn't demonstrate that they are hostile, and hence you haven't recognized them as an enemy, so Death Attack is still possible. Now, it would certainly be possible to assume hostile intent. If a player concludes the assassins are enemies and acts (or even prepares to defend himself) initiative would start immediately and there would be no surprise round. But until hostility is established, either by a guess or by an attack, the PCs remain vulnerable to Death Attack. I will, however, certainly agree that this is only an interpretation, and can be read many different ways. So I will agree with your breakdown except that I wouldn't consider spotting them in round 1 to prevent Death Attacks - it just makes it MUCH easier to gather enough information in later rounds to do so.
Finarin Panjoro 01-19-05, 04:20 PM	Thanks Beamup, Here's why I think the first Spot check should spoil the death attack. From the SRD: Death Attack: If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin’s choice). While studying the victim, the assassin can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the assassin OR recognize the assassin as an enemy. If it said "does not detect the assassin AND recognize him as an enemy" then I'd agree that merely spotting him doesn't cut it. I believe this is meant to give the PCs a chance to spot the assassin under any circumstances. If the Assassin is in plain sight, but disguised as a servant, then they would need to peirce his disguise and recognize that he is not what he appears to be. In cases where the assassin is concealing himself (whether in the dark or in a crowd) then a Spot vs. Hide check would provide this result. It seems designed to garauntee the PCs a chance to detect the danger and avoid the death effect, while still leaving them at risk from the sneak attack. Atleast that's how I read it.
Finarin Panjoro 01-20-05, 03:23 PM	So does anyone else think that the rules are intended to insure a chance for a skill check to make death attack impossible?
Beamup 01-21-05, 09:43 AM	Atleast that's how I read it. And that's a fully defensible reading. I'll just go ahead and explain my reasoning in a bit more detail. Essentially, what's the difference between an assassin pretending to be a guard and an assassin pretending to be Joe Random NPC sitting in a bar who happens to be interested in adventurers? Not much. He's in plain sight, but does not appear to be a threat. Saying that the latter case forbids DA while the former does not, simply because in the former case a Disguise check is being made, makes little sense (especially since a Disguise check might NOT be being made!). The only logically consistent way I can see to handle it is to say that the key is awareness of hostile intent. If you spot the guy lurking in the shadows with a crossbow, hostile intent is pretty obvious. If you realize that the "guard" by the door is really an imposter because his uniform tunic isn't buttoned right, again hostile intent can be assumed. But what about the guy who's just casually walking down the street, who whips out a dagger as he passes and stabs you? Clearly a Death Attack should (thematically) be permissible in this case. Yet he's not disguised - so Spot vs. Disguise is inappropriate. He's not hiding - so Spot vs. Hide is inappropriate. Spot can't be used to prevent the Death Attack here. But, this is essentially the same situation as the bar once they have been noticed. Finally, I would also point out that, even in this case, a skill check can be made to forbid the DA. It's even going to be an easier skill check much of the time. The DC 20 Sense Motive check to "get a hunch," to be precise. In such cases, THIS is how you would know the seemingly innocuous fellow is a threat.
Finarin Panjoro 01-21-05, 10:18 AM	Beamup, I certainly can see where you're coming from, let me take a return spin at how I would handle these situations. I agree that it makes little sense to allow a disguise check against an assassin who isn't trying to be something he's not. So yes, an assassin disguised as a guard warrants a Spot vs. Disguise check an assassin dressed as a commoner in a common bar does not. However in both cases I would allow a Spot vs. Hide check to notice the three rounds of studying that the assassin is required to do to prepare the death attack and success would prevent the death attack. I think the studying alone is enough to make the target wary. Not wary to the point of being immune to sneak attack, but wary enough to avoid the death attack. In the case of Joe Average walking down the street wiping out his dagger. He would also get a Hide check to conceal the fact that he's studying you for three rounds. If he failed then he can still sneak attack you, but you are aware that his attention was unusually focused on you and react just enough to disallow the death attack. In the case of someone that you are having a conversation with who suddenly whips out a dagger and stabs you I would allow a Sense Motive vs. Bluff check to realize that they are studying you for more than conversational reasons. I would oppose it by Bluff because you are trying to decieve them into thinking that you are harmless. In all of these cases the assassin's sneak attack is not prevented, but the death attack would be. However note that in every opposed case the skill is a class skill for assassins. I consider the most important skills for assassins to be bluff, disguise, hide, and move silently. Assuming these are maxed out even a character with maxed ranks in Spot and Sense Motive has a decent chance of missing the check and being vulnerable to death attack. If the assassin is particularly smart he'll truly study his opponent to learn his weaknesses and pick an approach that he's weak on. If he's assassinating a paladin with high Sense Motive he'll take an approach which calls for a Spot check. If he's assassinating a ranger with high Spot he'll take an approach which calls for a Sense Motive check and so on. I think an opposed check is always warranted otherwise its not going to be a fun encounter for the PC even if the PC is the assassin. If there's no challenge to doing the assassination what fun is it? It certainly wouldn't seem fun to me to be a PC walking down the street and then hear, "okay make a Fortitude save, you were just stabbed by a passerby. You got a 3. Sorry you're dead." This is a perfect time for the DM to say "Roll a Spot check. You got a 3, hmm not good. Okay roll a Fortitude save, a passerby just slipped a knife between your ribs". You can have them roll the Spot check because in a half second they're going to know they're in danger whether they make the check or not so you're not giving anything away by having them roll it. That way they don't feel like the DM just wasted them with his omnipotence and they know they got both a skill check and a Fort save to avoid death. Again that's just how I see it. Thanks for your help with this.
BlackFiend 01-21-05, 10:56 AM	You are taking great pains to do this correctly. If I may interject one thing however... -Crowds.- If the entire encounter was happening with just the two parties in play, then yes, what you say goes. But with the crowd present, you must include them as an additional dimension in this problem. Remember, the reason most people choose crowded places to meet their foes is because bystanders can be of "assistance" when your own sense and abilities fail you. For instance... During the rounds of observation, numerous things will take place: 1. Someone may recognize the assassins, or realize that they are COMPLETE strangers and be very leary of them. This bar is their regular drinking hole. The same villagers/town people who frequent the establishment after work every day know whos who. Two sets of unfriendly strangers is liable to draw many eyes. If anything goes amiss, the crowd (or someone within it) will react. That reaction could lead the adventurers to action, via a spot or listen check. 2. The barmaids may notice something is amiss. She notes that the assassin have been there for 3 hours and barely touched their drinks. It seems they are waiting for something...or someone. When she notices them staring at the other group of friendlier strangers, she may pass a clever warning to the group that they are being watched (for a few gold coins of course). Or...she may tell the boss of the place to watch out, or even may tell an off duty guard about the two groups and to keep eye. Bloodshed in there establishment is not good for business. 3. As the group of assasins get up almost on que to move in, someone in the crowd may gasp or give a verbal or non-verbal clue. Include listen checks if spot checks are failed. True assassins know better than attacking in the middle of a busy bar. They lose the element of surprise, their greatest asset!
Beamup 01-21-05, 01:16 PM	You haven't addressed my point about Sense Motive. Spot vs. Hide is not an appropriate skill set to apply to determine whether somebody is watching you in an unfriendly manner. You're not trying to determine whether they're there, but rather what their intentions are. That's Sense Motive, DC 20. Not even Sense Motive vs. Bluff. Particuarly when you consider that the typical adventurer stands out from the crowd (clearly not commoners, in general), simply being watched doesn't mean anything at all. If being watched was enough to make you suspicious, you'd end up suspicious of at least 90% of the people in every town you enter! So, yes, there's always a skill check, as I've been saying. But it isn't Spot vs. Hide in this sort of situation, it's Sense Motive DC 20.
Finarin Panjoro 01-21-05, 03:20 PM	Blackfiend, Yes, I do go to ridiculous lengths sometimes to figure things out. What can I say I love DMing. :D I agree that the crowd is a significant factor. Its just that I have a pretty good idea of how to handle them in this particular case. The crowd has a Spot/Sense Motive/etc check of +1 and so can't reach the DCs of any of the checks that would be required to notice the assassins. The bar is also in the wharf district so it constantly has strangers coming in and out. In fact it has very few regulars, most of its patrons are only in port for a few days. The barkeep and barmaids have been paid off by the assassin's employer to stay out of things (in fact this is one of the ways the PCs can go after the assassin's employers if they think of it). Beamup, I see what you're saying, you're talking about getting a hunch, Sense Motive DC 20. In my particular case this is fine because I'm dealing with a low-level assassin variant, but normally a DC 20 check is going to be nothing for anyone high enough level to attract the attention of a standard high-level DMG assassin. I believe the Hide skill is the appropriate skill to allow the assassins to study the PCs without being noticed. If the PCs make the Spot check I could then give them a Sense Motive check DC 20 for a hunch to realize that the assassins are dangerous. But my feeling is that the Spot check alone would prevent the death attack. Yes, the PCs are probably used to being stared at, so that alone is not enough to warn them of danger. BUT if they spot someone staring at them and that person then approaches them (unlike the staring bar patrons who just look) that could be enough to negate the death attack. If they also make the hunch check then they could start initiative right then spoiling the death attack and initiating the encounter at a distance when the assassins are completely unready (death attack study foiled, no weapons drawn, to far to make melee attacks during the surprise round, PCs most likely not flat-footed when the actual fight starts, etc). I'm actually okay with that way of doing it as long as the Spot check comes first. The assassins don't want to be noticed, they are trying to appear to be just like everyone else, but they aren't. The bar patrons are probably staring at the PC's weapons and faces. The assassins are looking for weaknesses, chinks in their armor, and exposed vital areas. To avoid the fairly easy DC 20 hunch check I'd think they would definitely hide in the crowd to avoid being seen at all. They have max ranks in Hide, but can do nothing to affect the hunch check. In any case I feel that the whole point is for the assassin is to hide the fact that he's studying you, by whatever means he uses (hide in the dark, hide in plain sight, disguise, etc). This seems like a hide check to me. If the Spot check beats it, no death attack is possible. I imagine that someone who spots an assassin studying them would immediately say to themselves, "why is he looking at me that way?" If you were already in conversation with the person this would be a Sense Motive check, arguably it should be opposed by Bluff because you're talking to the person specifically to lull them into trusting you enough to let you get close, but a hunch check could also be justified. So in short. I agree with you that the hunch check is the right way of determining that the assassins are a threat. But I think just being aware of them by way of a Spot check would negate the death attack (though without the hunch they could still approach and make normal sneak attacks). Does that make sense?
mercurial67 01-21-05, 03:55 PM	So the degrees of success would be: 1-Spotting the studying assassins: best outcome, completely prevents death attack and provides a chance to see the go signal and identify the other assassins. 2-Spotting the approaching assassins: initiates the encounter at range preventing flat-footedness on the part of anyone who wins initiative the following round making death attacks difficult but not impossible. 3-Complete surprise: The assassins get to make death attacks against each PC that they can catch flat-footed and may get a second chance if they win initiative the following round. I have to agree with Beamup for some, but not all of the rounds/phases. Until they are actually moving in on the characters and drawing daggers, it should be sense motive checks. Unless the assassins are actively using the crowd to hide in, there is zero reason for a spot check. When the signal is given, it would again be spot checks. Once they started moving, is when the spot checks come into play. There are two options. The first is they try to discretely move up on the PCs (while hiding the daggers) the other is they head straight for the PCs (while hiding the daggers). Here is how I would do it: Study Phase: The PCs get a Sense motive DC 20 check (-5 unless they specifically state they are on guard or checking out the patrons because of distractions) to notice someone is paying more attention to them than normal (inform them someone is checking them out, sizing them up, noting their weapons, or anything along the same lines). Randomly pick one of the assassins and that is the one they noticed first. Have the PC make a bluff check vs the assassin's sense motive to see if the assassin notices the PC noticing him. Since he has drawn attention to himself, the PC should also get a spot vs the disguise to notice the armor. If the PC says s/he starts looking around for others, give him another sense motive check to "sense" who else is checking him or the others out. If the assassins realize they have been made, they might just call it off and the PCs are left wonder what almost happened. Go phase: This is when the assassins give their "go" message. They have already studied everyone and are ready to move in. Only allow PCs who have previously senses something was up & continued to pay attention a chance to "intercept" the message with a counter sense motive check. Move in: Now the assassins are moving in. If they are using the crowd to "conceal" the fact they are all moving in (which I recommend) give everyone who has not sensed their odd behavior a spot check (-5 for distractions) vs their hide check to notice someone approaching while trying to remain unnoticed. If they are just walking by give them a spot vs sleight of hand to notice the hidden daggers. If they just approach without drawing the daggers, give everyone a sense motive DC 20 (-5 for distractions) to notice something is up. If someone notices & acts, this is in effect the surprise round. Start the assassins 10'+ away from the characters. Strike: At this point, the assassins are in combat. If someone else acted/yelled out/etc, the previous round was a surprise round. Everyone else joins in the combat on their initiate. If someone was aware, but continued to watch or if no one noticed, then this is the surprise round. Have everyone roll a spot check vs. the sleight of hand to notice the concealed daggers. If they notice, they can act in this surprise round. Of course it is your game, so just take what you want from this or other posts. In a situation like this, I try to picture it like an old western. The PCs might "sense motive" that one or more people are paying them extra attention or if they are regulars or tip well the bar keep or maid might mention something to the one who tipped well (reward those roleplaying moments)
mercurial67 01-21-05, 04:21 PM	The barkeep and barmaids have been paid off by the assassin's employer to stay out of things (in fact this is one of the ways the PCs can go after the assassin's employers if they think of it).You do have a point about higher level characters being able to make the DC 20 sense motive check easily, but since the barkeep & barmaids have been paid off, the characters definately should get the DC 20 sense motive check since something definately is up(the barkeep is a bit nervous when serving the drinks or the barmaid tends to leave to quickly and is looking around while taking the order). That might prevent them from taking the -5 for distractions since they are aware something is going on & try to figure out what it is. Also, the sense motive check could be DC 20 OR vs a bluff check since someone who is good at bluffing will be harder to sense something about. If the assassins are trying to not be seen, then a hide check is definately what is in order. If the PCs spot them though, they should be told someone was making an effort to not be seen. What you have suggested sound very reasonable & I see no reason why you shouldn't go with it if you are happy with it.
BlackFiend 01-21-05, 04:48 PM	I agree with Mercurial. I can tell you as an older black guy who's been in some downright seedy places, you can feel the hairs on the back of your neck raise when you are in a spot where you think someone might try to get over on you. Sometimes I can go into such places and feel perfectly at ease (hey...I'm a bit of a slimeball myself!) but when there is one or more people with some menace about them...yeah...I don't need no stinking spidey senses to know someone got my wallet in mind. In that case...I recommend going for sense motive checks. You have a whole bunch of people trying to maintain face, when they are really full of angst, malice, greed, or disgust towards the PCs. OH...and BRAVO! My fellow DM, it warms my heart to know there are mindful DMs out there who think things through like myself. Well done!
Finarin Panjoro 01-21-05, 04:49 PM	You do have a point about higher level characters being able to make the DC 20 sense motive check easily, but since the barkeep & barmaids have been paid off, the characters definately should get the DC 20 sense motive check since something definately is up(the barkeep is a bit nervous when serving the drinks or the barmaid tends to leave to quickly and is looking around while taking the order). That might prevent them from taking the -5 for distractions since they are aware something is going on & try to figure out what it is. Also, the sense motive check could be DC 20 OR vs a bluff check since someone who is good at bluffing will be harder to sense something about. If the assassins are trying to not be seen, then a hide check is definately what is in order. If the PCs spot them though, they should be told someone was making an effort to not be seen. What you have suggested sound very reasonable & I see no reason why you shouldn't go with it if you are happy with it. I can't believe I didn't think about this! You're absolutely right this changes everything. The PCs should get a Sense Motive check DC 20 as soon as they enter the bar to remove the distraction penalty by sensing that something is wrong. They should then get undistracted Spot checks to notice the assassins who are studying them while trying to remain unseen. Because of the Sense Motive check they will already know that something suspicious is going on so there is no doubt the Spot check would preclude the death attack. If the PCs fail the DC 20 Sense Motive check then they will get distracted Spot checks to notice the assassins studying them. Success on this Spot check will still preclude death attacks, but otherwise won't help them out. When the assassins close to strike they'll get a second Spot check to notice the daggers (vs. Sleight of Hand) but will still be considered distracted unless they made the previous check. If they succeed on the Spot vs. Sleight of Hand check then they initiate a surprise round with the assassins 20 feet away and with daggers sheathed. Thanks for pointing that out. I can't believe I didn't think about that!