Assassin/Shadow dancer's defence of all time?! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Assassin/Shadow dancer's defence of all time?! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Master of Assassins
03-11-05, 10:47 PM I have been playing a rogue assassin char. for some time know and have come across an extremly powerfull defence for him in version 3.5 and I just wanted to share it, and or see if it is possible.

First of all you will need to have the Hide in Plain sight Ability preferably the shadow dancer's or assassins version, which allows the character to hide even when being observed as long as they are within 10 feet of some sort of shadow. Which means when it is night time you can hide when ever, where ever you want. Then all you need is the spring attack feat, which allows you to move before and after an attack, as long as your movement dosn't surpass that of your bass land speed. (also note in 3.5 you can hide as a move action)

Combing this abiltity and feat allows you to move attack and then hide as you start to move.Next use the rest of your movment to reposition yourself well hidding so your enemy can't just go and attack the square were you hid. Then continue to do this for every turn, making it so you allways get a sneak attack and so the opponent is left toataly helpless as you appear out of the shadows attack and then disappear once again in the same turn(unless they are a sorcerer that just blasts the ground with an area affect spell). ALso to make this more affective use magic iteams to increase your speed and to protect you from the scent ability.

Please inform me if their is a flaw in this combo, and if their is not, well then enemys beware for the untouchable assassin is a foot :evillaugh
Egres
03-12-05, 05:13 AM I have been playing a rogue assassin char. for some time know and have come across an extremly powerfull defence for him in version 3.5 and I just wanted to share it, and or see if it is possible.

First of all you will need to have the Hide in Plain sight Ability preferably the shadow dancer's or assassins version, which allows the character to hide even when being observed as long as they are within 10 feet of some sort of shadow. Which means when it is night time you can hide when ever, where ever you want. Then all you need is the spring attack feat, which allows you to move before and after an attack, as long as your movement dosn't surpass that of your bass land speed. (also note in 3.5 you can hide as a move action)

Combing this abiltity and feat allows you to move attack and then hide as you start to move.Next use the rest of your movment to reposition yourself well hidding so your enemy can't just go and attack the square were you hid. Then continue to do this for every turn, making it so you allways get a sneak attack and so the opponent is left toataly helpless as you appear out of the shadows attack and then disappear once again in the same turn(unless they are a sorcerer that just blasts the ground with an area affect spell). ALso to make this more affective use magic iteams to increase your speed and to protect you from the scent ability.

Please inform me if their is a flaw in this combo, and if their is not, well then enemys beware for the untouchable assassin is a foot :evillaugh

It's an old tactic.

From the Main 3.5 FAQ:

Can a character with Spring Attack who begins her
turn hidden move up to a foe, attack him, then return to a
position of hiding? Is she considered to be hiding (that is,
invisible to the foe) when she makes the attack? What if the
character has the camouflage or hide in plain sight class
features?

Normally, a character can’t make a Hide check right after
attacking a foe, since that foe’s attention is now focused on her
(even if the attacker started her turn hidden or invisible). The
sniping option (on page 76 in the Player’s Handbook) allows a
character to make a move action to hide immediately after
making a ranged attack against a foe at least 10 feet away, but
this doesn’t apply to melee attacks (even those made with
reach). Even if the character has Spring Attack, she simply
can’t make a Hide check while she is being observed.
As far as your second question goes, unless the character’s
approach remains entirely in an area where she can hide (that
is, an area with sufficient cover or concealment to attempt a
Hide check), the character is not considered to be hidden still
when she makes the attack. Conceivably, your character might
begin her turn hidden in overgrowth, move up through the
undergrowth to attack a target, then move back to a hiding
place within the plants, having never left the area of
concealment. In this case, she’d be considered hidden when she
made the attack, although she’d have a –20 penalty on her Hide
check.
The third part of your question changes the situation
entirely. Separately, both the camouflage and hide in plain sight
class features make this tactic more useful, but together, they’re
incredibly effective.
A character with the hide in plain sight class feature
(described on page 48 in the Player’s Handbook) can make a
Hide check even if she’s being observed. This doesn’t require
any extra action to accomplish (unlike the sniping maneuver).
The character could attack a foe, then move to a place with
sufficient cover or concealment to allow a Hide check, making
the Hide check as part of movement. The character doesn’t
need Spring Attack to pull this off, although that feat would
allow her to move (potentially from a place of hiding, although
that’s not necessary), make an attack, and then move again to a
place of hiding. Still, unless the character has cover or
concealment for her approach, she’s not considered to be
hidden when she delivers the attack.
The camouflage class feature (also on page 48 in the
Player’s Handbook) allows the character to make a Hide check
in any sort of natural terrain, even if it doesn’t provide cover or
concealment. This means that the character could begin hidden,
move up to a target across open terrain, and make an attack
while still being considered hidden (although she’d still suffer
the –20 penalty on her Hide check). Even if the character has
Spring Attack and moves away after the attack, she can’t make
a Hide check to hide after the attack.
Put all three of these elements together—such as in the
hands of a high-level sneaky ranger—and here’s what you get:
1. The character begins his turn hidden (as long as he’s in
natural terrain, he doesn’t even need cover or concealment).
2. He moves up to a foe across natural terrain and makes an
attack (making a Hide check with a –20 penalty to be
considered hiding when he attacks).
3. He then moves back from the foe and makes a new Hide
check to disappear from view (again, he doesn’t need cover or
concealment while in natural terrain).
4. The foe then, if still standing, says, “Hey, what hit me?!”
soulknife
03-12-05, 09:12 PM what if the enemy's back is turned and you sneak up on them then hide that would still work then you wouldnt need to be in undergrowth or have concealment
Purkake
03-13-05, 03:37 AM Yeah, but there is no facing in D&D.
ehrin
03-13-05, 10:23 AM One possible defense against this is a readied action. Won't work the first time, probably, but it could work on round 2 and beyond.

But still, that is a very potent combination.
Ichor Spellka
03-13-05, 10:46 AM Another defense is darkvision. Using darkvision, there is no shadow or darkness to hide in. It effectively removes the shadowdancer's or assassin's ability to hide in that environment. It's even worse against things that can see through all darkness without any hindrance (ie. devils, some spells do this as well). But yes, other than that, it's very good.
Dag
03-13-05, 02:59 PM as a DM I would impliment the sniping rules for multiple hidings with the hide in plain sight ability. You can attack then hide again but at a -20 to your hide check.
Egres
03-13-05, 05:27 PM Another defense is darkvision. Using darkvision, there is no shadow or darkness to hide in. It effectively removes the shadowdancer's or assassin's ability to hide in that environment. It's even worse against things that can see through all darkness without any hindrance (ie. devils, some spells do this as well). But yes, other than that, it's very good.
Thatěs one ot the most common mistake.

The fact that you can see through darkness doesn't negate the SD HiPS ability.
Liox
03-15-05, 08:03 AM You cannot replace your Darkvision for a Spot. If that was true, than True Seeing would be able to see everything.
Tsuul
03-15-05, 10:19 AM Combing this abiltity and feat allows you to move attack and then hide as you start to move.Next use the rest of your movment to reposition yourself well hidding so your enemy can't just go and attack the square were you hid.Careful. When you hide during a move action are only considered hiding at the end of it. You are creating more 'actions' by trying to separate this into a mini-move + mini-move action. Shadowdancers get a nice ability at 4th level to help them reposition in the next round of combat.
Master of Assassins
03-15-05, 09:37 PM Well thanks a lot for the feed back, It has been helpfull. But also Tsuul, even though you are hidden at the end of the move action, it still keeps your opponent from using a full attack on you if you moved atleast 10 feat away, and it also gives you the 50% concealment chance against their attack which is still a powerfull defence.
RustyHelm
03-21-05, 09:44 PM if their a mage they can just cast daylight and their are no more shadows
soulknife
03-21-05, 09:48 PM Yeah, but there is no facing in D&D.

what are u talking about there is so
shultz
03-21-05, 09:58 PM Yeah, but there is no facing in D&D.

There is no facing in D&D miniatures. In the roleplaying game there is.

The scout and ranger can also benefit from this tactic once they get camouflage or hide in plain sight. This would work only in natural terrain, but they would not need any cover or concealment to use it.
Yobgod Ababua
03-21-05, 10:00 PM what are u talking about there is so

The rules are somewhat against you on this one... creatures have "space" (how much space they take up) and "reach" (how far away they can threaten squares with a melee attack) but no "facing". This is why, for example, flanking works the way it does. Creatures are presumed to always be moving around within their space and looking in all directions during the course of a round.

If you can find conclusive evidence otherwise in the 3.5 SRD (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35) we'd all like to know (and will be very surprised).

In the roleplaying game there is.

No, there is not.
Colmarr
03-21-05, 10:34 PM It probably doesn't need saying, but Yobgod is right about facing.

Creatures in D&D do not have facing (ie. a "front", a "back", and "sides"). Technically, therefore, a creature will never by RAW be "looking the other way".

Your DM might house rule an exception in individual cases, but you should be aware that in D&D every creature is mechanically considered to be continually looking in every direction.

Edit: To further support this position, note that Unearthed Arcana contains variant rules that re-introduce facing (which existed in AD&D).
soulknife
03-22-05, 03:47 PM i get it now you are right hiding and spotting make up for it that way it makes things fit together. cause if you say your looking one way then you would have to state it every round and it would make game play slow
Lomion
03-22-05, 04:07 PM if their a mage they can just cast daylight and their are no more shadows

Sure there would be. It doesn't eliminate all shadows, it creates a source of illumination. Think of it as turning on a light in a dark room. Objects and people in the room still cast shadows. Those would then be up for grabs for use by the character with HiPS.

Also, hiding doesn't take place at the end of a move. Under the Hide skill the SRD states:

Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action.
at2bob
03-22-05, 04:21 PM I believe the spring attack is considered a full-round action, therefore you can move-attk-move, that would not allow you to hide. IMO I wouldn't allow it in my campaign.
Lomion
03-22-05, 07:35 PM Sprink Attack states:

When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed.

It doesn't take a full-round action, nor does it add any further actions. It simply is something that you are able to do at the same time as normally allowed actions. This is akin to whistling or chewing gum while you walk.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Master of Assassins 03-11-05, 10:47 PM	I have been playing a rogue assassin char. for some time know and have come across an extremly powerfull defence for him in version 3.5 and I just wanted to share it, and or see if it is possible. First of all you will need to have the Hide in Plain sight Ability preferably the shadow dancer's or assassins version, which allows the character to hide even when being observed as long as they are within 10 feet of some sort of shadow. Which means when it is night time you can hide when ever, where ever you want. Then all you need is the spring attack feat, which allows you to move before and after an attack, as long as your movement dosn't surpass that of your bass land speed. (also note in 3.5 you can hide as a move action) Combing this abiltity and feat allows you to move attack and then hide as you start to move.Next use the rest of your movment to reposition yourself well hidding so your enemy can't just go and attack the square were you hid. Then continue to do this for every turn, making it so you allways get a sneak attack and so the opponent is left toataly helpless as you appear out of the shadows attack and then disappear once again in the same turn(unless they are a sorcerer that just blasts the ground with an area affect spell). ALso to make this more affective use magic iteams to increase your speed and to protect you from the scent ability. Please inform me if their is a flaw in this combo, and if their is not, well then enemys beware for the untouchable assassin is a foot :evillaugh
Egres 03-12-05, 05:13 AM	I have been playing a rogue assassin char. for some time know and have come across an extremly powerfull defence for him in version 3.5 and I just wanted to share it, and or see if it is possible. First of all you will need to have the Hide in Plain sight Ability preferably the shadow dancer's or assassins version, which allows the character to hide even when being observed as long as they are within 10 feet of some sort of shadow. Which means when it is night time you can hide when ever, where ever you want. Then all you need is the spring attack feat, which allows you to move before and after an attack, as long as your movement dosn't surpass that of your bass land speed. (also note in 3.5 you can hide as a move action) Combing this abiltity and feat allows you to move attack and then hide as you start to move.Next use the rest of your movment to reposition yourself well hidding so your enemy can't just go and attack the square were you hid. Then continue to do this for every turn, making it so you allways get a sneak attack and so the opponent is left toataly helpless as you appear out of the shadows attack and then disappear once again in the same turn(unless they are a sorcerer that just blasts the ground with an area affect spell). ALso to make this more affective use magic iteams to increase your speed and to protect you from the scent ability. Please inform me if their is a flaw in this combo, and if their is not, well then enemys beware for the untouchable assassin is a foot :evillaugh It's an old tactic. From the Main 3.5 FAQ: Can a character with Spring Attack who begins her turn hidden move up to a foe, attack him, then return to a position of hiding? Is she considered to be hiding (that is, invisible to the foe) when she makes the attack? What if the character has the camouflage or hide in plain sight class features? Normally, a character can’t make a Hide check right after attacking a foe, since that foe’s attention is now focused on her (even if the attacker started her turn hidden or invisible). The sniping option (on page 76 in the Player’s Handbook) allows a character to make a move action to hide immediately after making a ranged attack against a foe at least 10 feet away, but this doesn’t apply to melee attacks (even those made with reach). Even if the character has Spring Attack, she simply can’t make a Hide check while she is being observed. As far as your second question goes, unless the character’s approach remains entirely in an area where she can hide (that is, an area with sufficient cover or concealment to attempt a Hide check), the character is not considered to be hidden still when she makes the attack. Conceivably, your character might begin her turn hidden in overgrowth, move up through the undergrowth to attack a target, then move back to a hiding place within the plants, having never left the area of concealment. In this case, she’d be considered hidden when she made the attack, although she’d have a –20 penalty on her Hide check. The third part of your question changes the situation entirely. Separately, both the camouflage and hide in plain sight class features make this tactic more useful, but together, they’re incredibly effective. A character with the hide in plain sight class feature (described on page 48 in the Player’s Handbook) can make a Hide check even if she’s being observed. This doesn’t require any extra action to accomplish (unlike the sniping maneuver). The character could attack a foe, then move to a place with sufficient cover or concealment to allow a Hide check, making the Hide check as part of movement. The character doesn’t need Spring Attack to pull this off, although that feat would allow her to move (potentially from a place of hiding, although that’s not necessary), make an attack, and then move again to a place of hiding. Still, unless the character has cover or concealment for her approach, she’s not considered to be hidden when she delivers the attack. The camouflage class feature (also on page 48 in the Player’s Handbook) allows the character to make a Hide check in any sort of natural terrain, even if it doesn’t provide cover or concealment. This means that the character could begin hidden, move up to a target across open terrain, and make an attack while still being considered hidden (although she’d still suffer the –20 penalty on her Hide check). Even if the character has Spring Attack and moves away after the attack, she can’t make a Hide check to hide after the attack. Put all three of these elements together—such as in the hands of a high-level sneaky ranger—and here’s what you get: 1. The character begins his turn hidden (as long as he’s in natural terrain, he doesn’t even need cover or concealment). 2. He moves up to a foe across natural terrain and makes an attack (making a Hide check with a –20 penalty to be considered hiding when he attacks). 3. He then moves back from the foe and makes a new Hide check to disappear from view (again, he doesn’t need cover or concealment while in natural terrain). 4. The foe then, if still standing, says, “Hey, what hit me?!”
soulknife 03-12-05, 09:12 PM	what if the enemy's back is turned and you sneak up on them then hide that would still work then you wouldnt need to be in undergrowth or have concealment
Purkake 03-13-05, 03:37 AM	Yeah, but there is no facing in D&D.
ehrin 03-13-05, 10:23 AM	One possible defense against this is a readied action. Won't work the first time, probably, but it could work on round 2 and beyond. But still, that is a very potent combination.
Ichor Spellka 03-13-05, 10:46 AM	Another defense is darkvision. Using darkvision, there is no shadow or darkness to hide in. It effectively removes the shadowdancer's or assassin's ability to hide in that environment. It's even worse against things that can see through all darkness without any hindrance (ie. devils, some spells do this as well). But yes, other than that, it's very good.
Dag 03-13-05, 02:59 PM	as a DM I would impliment the sniping rules for multiple hidings with the hide in plain sight ability. You can attack then hide again but at a -20 to your hide check.
Egres 03-13-05, 05:27 PM	Another defense is darkvision. Using darkvision, there is no shadow or darkness to hide in. It effectively removes the shadowdancer's or assassin's ability to hide in that environment. It's even worse against things that can see through all darkness without any hindrance (ie. devils, some spells do this as well). But yes, other than that, it's very good. Thatěs one ot the most common mistake. The fact that you can see through darkness doesn't negate the SD HiPS ability.
Liox 03-15-05, 08:03 AM	You cannot replace your Darkvision for a Spot. If that was true, than True Seeing would be able to see everything.
Tsuul 03-15-05, 10:19 AM	Combing this abiltity and feat allows you to move attack and then hide as you start to move.Next use the rest of your movment to reposition yourself well hidding so your enemy can't just go and attack the square were you hid.Careful. When you hide during a move action are only considered hiding at the end of it. You are creating more 'actions' by trying to separate this into a mini-move + mini-move action. Shadowdancers get a nice ability at 4th level to help them reposition in the next round of combat.
Master of Assassins 03-15-05, 09:37 PM	Well thanks a lot for the feed back, It has been helpfull. But also Tsuul, even though you are hidden at the end of the move action, it still keeps your opponent from using a full attack on you if you moved atleast 10 feat away, and it also gives you the 50% concealment chance against their attack which is still a powerfull defence.
RustyHelm 03-21-05, 09:44 PM	if their a mage they can just cast daylight and their are no more shadows
soulknife 03-21-05, 09:48 PM	Yeah, but there is no facing in D&D. what are u talking about there is so
shultz 03-21-05, 09:58 PM	Yeah, but there is no facing in D&D. There is no facing in D&D miniatures. In the roleplaying game there is. The scout and ranger can also benefit from this tactic once they get camouflage or hide in plain sight. This would work only in natural terrain, but they would not need any cover or concealment to use it.
Yobgod Ababua 03-21-05, 10:00 PM	what are u talking about there is so The rules are somewhat against you on this one... creatures have "space" (how much space they take up) and "reach" (how far away they can threaten squares with a melee attack) but no "facing". This is why, for example, flanking works the way it does. Creatures are presumed to always be moving around within their space and looking in all directions during the course of a round. If you can find conclusive evidence otherwise in the 3.5 SRD (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35) we'd all like to know (and will be very surprised). In the roleplaying game there is. No, there is not.
Colmarr 03-21-05, 10:34 PM	It probably doesn't need saying, but Yobgod is right about facing. Creatures in D&D do not have facing (ie. a "front", a "back", and "sides"). Technically, therefore, a creature will never by RAW be "looking the other way". Your DM might house rule an exception in individual cases, but you should be aware that in D&D every creature is mechanically considered to be continually looking in every direction. Edit: To further support this position, note that Unearthed Arcana contains variant rules that re-introduce facing (which existed in AD&D).
soulknife 03-22-05, 03:47 PM	i get it now you are right hiding and spotting make up for it that way it makes things fit together. cause if you say your looking one way then you would have to state it every round and it would make game play slow
Lomion 03-22-05, 04:07 PM	if their a mage they can just cast daylight and their are no more shadows Sure there would be. It doesn't eliminate all shadows, it creates a source of illumination. Think of it as turning on a light in a dark room. Objects and people in the room still cast shadows. Those would then be up for grabs for use by the character with HiPS. Also, hiding doesn't take place at the end of a move. Under the Hide skill the SRD states: Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action.
at2bob 03-22-05, 04:21 PM	I believe the spring attack is considered a full-round action, therefore you can move-attk-move, that would not allow you to hide. IMO I wouldn't allow it in my campaign.
Lomion 03-22-05, 07:35 PM	Sprink Attack states: When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. It doesn't take a full-round action, nor does it add any further actions. It simply is something that you are able to do at the same time as normally allowed actions. This is akin to whistling or chewing gum while you walk.