Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tapelib 04-13-07, 02:49 PM	Can this weapon be used as Thrown Weapon and a Projectile Weapon? Can you use Thrown and/or Projectile feats with it? I am specifically interested in Brutal Throw with this. As a Thrown weapon, would it take a move action to draw the spear? It would gain the Str bonus to damage, of course. As a projectile weapon, it would take a free action to draw the spear, but not add Str to the damage. If you enchant it, does it confer the effect to its ammunition? Or do you get the best of all worlds, in a free action to load as a projectile, Str damage added as a Thrown, and it can be enchanted as a projectile, which adds to its ammunition! I would like this hased out now, as I am thinking of a Power Throwing character, and want to use it properly. - Ed Tostanoski
tarkin 04-13-07, 03:48 PM	I believe it is like this: 1. Spears are thrown weapons, not ammunition. This holds forever, no matter how you use it. 2. It takes a move action to load the Spear, they are not ammo. 3. It gets the strength for similar reasons. 4. The Atlatly however is a projectily launcher, no matter what. So an enchanted Atlatly however WOULD apply the enchantment to spears, as if they were ammo.
Moribund 04-13-07, 05:01 PM	atlatl spears are specific to atlatls and are thus ammunition and not thrown weapons. No information is given as to how long it takes to reload, so you can probably assume it takes no action at all (like notching an arrow). Note: Based on its presentation in the table it is a projectile weapon and is thus ineligible for use with Brutal Throw and Power Throw without house-ruling. Technically you don't even get a Str bonus to damage with it as it doesn't say you do in the description and it isn't "a specifically built composite shortbow, composite longbow, or sling", but that's just silly. The atlatl gives you increased ability to throw what is essentially a javelin so it should do more damage (or at least have better range) than a freaking javelin
dengarbountyhunter 04-14-07, 12:08 PM	Realistically, atlatl would shoot dart-like projectiles. Pretty short and very flexible. The whole point of the atlatl is to store spring energy in the flexible dart with a quick swing and then it "jumps" itself away from the atlatl, which is also a bit flexible for even more energy. See here (http://atlatl.com/) for more explanation on the physics behind atlatl. That said, it's pretty unrealistic to make it shoot freakin' spears. Even javelins would be a bit stretchy. Atlatls in my game are like one-handed light crossbows (move action to reload) that shoot dartlike projectiles, or darts with a -2 on attack roll, and add Strength bonus. Other atlatl-like weapons shoot bigger, non-flexible projectiles, like the australian woomera if I'm not mistaken (which is far less efficient than a flexible atlatl). But it seems like the intent behind the Sandstorm atlatl was to make it a South-American like atlatl. But as always, you can go "F*ck realism" and use spiked chains, Sandstorm stats for atlatls and the Complete Adventurer rules that Sense Motive DC to determine if a creature is a threat to you that grow harder if the creature is bigger (more HD).
Moribund 04-14-07, 04:37 PM	According to the every trustworthy wikipedia, atlatl darts were 4-9 feet in length. Which sounds bigger than what I envision the D&D dart to be. I'm certainly no expert in neo-lithic weaponry, but I did see a brief documentary on the atlatl. They were comparing a hand thrown dart to one thrown by an atlatl. The atlatl one ended up breaking their force gauging rig. I question requiring a move action to reload. The darts just needed to be placed in a cup, no cocking or complex attachment procedure required. Of course a sling is a move action to reload for some unfathomable reason, so it is not like there is no precedent.
Watchman 04-14-07, 04:51 PM	Before the bow was invented spear-throwers were the things for taking down large game at a distance. For a while later as well I'd imagine, as the sheer penetrating power of a spear or javelin (nevermind a lever-powered one) remained quite useful against big animals like elks. They lost out to slings and bows in most parts of the world though, although javelins and throwing-spears remained in use alongside those. Sometimes javelins had looped thongs tied to their shafts, which were used to achieve a similar lever effect - Classical Greek light infantry for one used these. According to the every trustworthy wikipedia, atlatl darts were 4-9 feet in length. Which sounds bigger than what I envision the D&D dart to be.These aren't what you play Darts with but small javelins you know. ;) I'm not sure of the exact dimensions of the Late Roman plumbata or those curious Irish war-darts, but I'm under the impression they fit within those ranges as well. Thrown by hand though; apparently quite deadly even to meaningfully armoured opponents, although somewhat limited in terms of range. Odd curio: Xenophon's Anabasis apparently mentions the mountain tribes of Asia Minor the Ten Thousand had to fight through used arrows so long the Greeks were able to recycle them as javelins. There's for you, stupid D&D ammunition breakage rules. :D
Moribund 04-14-07, 04:56 PM	Ack, Watchman! Expert in ancient weaponry! I concede! Have mercy on me great and knowledgeable Watchman!
Watchman 04-14-07, 05:33 PM	Where's my "It is you !!" ? :weep: Just decided felt like pitching in with what I happened to know about the subject when I saw talk was getting historical is all. ;) Leaving that aside, requiring some action to reload an atlatl or spear-thrower is probably justified, at least as much as with slings anyway. The movements required (so far as I know) are a bit more extensive than just taking out and nocking a new arrow or procuring a new throwing weapon with Quick Draw after all - AFAIK the projectile had better sit properly and not almost in the thrower for one. Plus using two hands is pretty much mandatory which brings its own issues.
tapelib 04-16-07, 09:16 AM	Okay, from the consensus, I will use this mechanically as a Thrown Weapon (requiring a Move action or Quick drawn-free action to load), but buy/maintain it as a Projectile weapon, in that enchanting the stick will confer bonuses to the ammunition. Finally, I will plan on using two hands to use this weapon. Thanks for the discussion, gentlebeings.