Attack Bonus Confusion [Archive] - Wizards Community

Attack Bonus Confusion [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
peteyrock
12-03-06, 06:05 PM Whether or not this issue has been tackled in the forums, I don't know. But, I need to get this straight.
I don't understand where to apply secondary attack rules, especially when there are so many to choose from. Specifically: a Centaur Ranger that's level 20 will have many attacks to apply. There's the +20/+15/+10/+5. Throw in Ambidexterity and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting. Does the -5 second attack with the off-hand weapon go in after the initial attacks or at the end of the attack string (+18/+18/+13/+15/+10/+5 or +18/+18/+15/+10/+5/+0 or +18/+18/+13/+8/+3/-2). Then, Centaurs have a natural attack with two hooves that can be used as secondary attacks with a -5 penalty. Can you have three secondary attacks? I'm not going to type out all those attack bonuses. If someone can help me sort out how these attacks are supposed to go on paper, it would be great! Thanks.
Batshido
12-03-06, 06:21 PM With Improved Two Weapon Fighting, the chain would go;

+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+3

The penalties for two weapon fighting apply all the way down the line. Note that the above assumes that you are fighting with a double weapon or a light weapon in your off hand.

Also, Ambidexterity doesn't exist anymore. The entire bonus has been subsumed into Two-Weapon Fighting. Here's the Core Feat list. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm
peteyrock
12-03-06, 06:25 PM With Improved Two Weapon Fighting, the chain would go;

+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+3

The penalties for two weapon fighting apply all the way down the line. Note that the above assumes that you are fighting with a double weapon or a light weapon in your off hand.

Also, Ambidexterity doesn't exist anymore. The entire bonus has been subsumed into Two-Weapon Fighting. Here's the Core Feat list. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm

great! thanks much!
DarkRhystar
12-03-06, 06:28 PM Don't forget the Secondary attacks.

Say your BAB is 20 and you're using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting.

Main Hand: +18/+13/+8/+3
Off-Hand: +18/+13
Secondary: +13/+13

The result is a full 8 attacks at +18/+18/+13/+13/+13/+13/+8/+3. All attacks are decreased by 2 for Two-Weapon Fighting and Secondary attacks are decreased by another -5 (unless you have the multiweapon fighting feat).
Batshido
12-03-06, 07:07 PM Don't forget the Secondary attacks.

Say your BAB is 20 and you're using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting.

Main Hand: +18/+13/+8/+3
Off-Hand: +18/+13
Secondary: +13/+13

The result is a full 8 attacks at +18/+18/+13/+13/+13/+13/+8/+3. All attacks are decreased by 2 for Two-Weapon Fighting and Secondary attacks are decreased by another -5 (unless you have the multiweapon fighting feat).

Yeah, I forgot about those. Centaurs aren't my strong suit, I guess. ;)
peteyrock
12-03-06, 07:18 PM i now have the realization that being a centaur is plain old fashioned not fair. combine these attack bonuses with rediculous strength, dexterity, and constitution. plus, monstrous HD, feats, and skill bonuses. i'm going to continue playing with this guy, see what kind of rediculous gear i can eventually get him, and be able to defeat damn-near anything.
braethias
12-03-06, 07:21 PM Marilith Monk. Haha. If I recall, winds up being something like, 36 attacks or some such. Beat that. :P
peteyrock
12-03-06, 07:34 PM alright. a centaur is a large creature. so, with the two weapon fighting, i could make the main hand weapon a greatsword and the off-hand weapon longsword. that's a lotta damage!
DarkRhystar
12-03-06, 07:35 PM i now have the realization that being a centaur is plain old fashioned not fair. combine these attack bonuses with rediculous strength, dexterity, and constitution. plus, monstrous HD, feats, and skill bonuses. i'm going to continue playing with this guy, see what kind of rediculous gear i can eventually get him, and be able to defeat damn-near anything.

The Centaur is fine (underpowered if anything).

Keep in mind that when a Centaur is level 1 (4 RHD, 2 LA, 1 class), everyone else is level 7.

At level 20, the Centaur will only be 14 (class level-wise).
peteyrock
12-03-06, 07:38 PM The Centaur is fine (underpowered if anything).

Keep in mind that when a Centaur is level 1 (4 RHD, 2 LA, 1 class), everyone else is level 7.

At level 20, the Centaur will only be 14 (class level-wise).

truth. but, allowing him to level his class to 20 makes for one serious dude. plus, my DM is kind of crappy and i'm taking full advantage of that.
braethias
12-03-06, 07:45 PM You're a bad person for that. Remember to take Karmic strike. (requires dex 13+ and dodge.) Gives you an AoO on anyone who hits you with a melee attack, you declare you're using it in the beginning of the round, and you get -4 ac until your next action. the AoO effect lasts until your next turn too.

Also, get a wrathful healing weapon. Yeah.
Batshido
12-03-06, 07:51 PM You're a bad person for that. Remember to take Karmic strike. (requires dex 13+ and dodge.) Gives you an AoO on anyone who hits you with a melee attack, you declare you're using it in the beginning of the round, and you get -4 ac until your next action. the AoO effect lasts until your next turn too.

Also, get a wrathful healing weapon. Yeah.

You're probably better off just going with Robilars Gambit from PHBII. You take an extra 4 damage, but you don't have to have Dodge, which is a terrible feat IMHO.
peteyrock
12-03-06, 07:55 PM thanks for tips. i'll be sure and look into them. however, rangers don't exactly get a large amount of feats in terms of free choice ones like fighters.
and, yes. yes, i am a bad person
ShinAkuma2
12-03-06, 09:14 PM alright. a centaur is a large creature. so, with the two weapon fighting, i could make the main hand weapon a greatsword and the off-hand weapon longsword. that's a lotta damage!

Why not just use a large longsword and a large shortsword?

You do the same damage, and avoid the size penalty to your attacks.
jaelis
12-03-06, 11:45 PM Try using a lance in one hand and light flail in the other. Getting reach and double damage on a charge is too good to pass up. Then invest in Combat Expertise and Improved Trip... with your size bonus, quadruped bonus, and good strength, you are an awesome tripper.

Unfortuately, CE is a bit hard to get with the Int penalty, but if you can pull it off, you'll be styling.
Howie23
12-04-06, 01:55 PM Try using a lance in one hand and light flail in the other. Getting reach and double damage on a charge is too good to pass up. Then invest in Combat Expertise and Improved Trip... with your size bonus, quadruped bonus, and good strength, you are an awesome tripper.

Unfortuately, CE is a bit hard to get with the Int penalty, but if you can pull it off, you'll be styling.

I suppose it depends on the DM, but centaur lance w/one hand seems odd to me. I suppose it is consitent in the case where the DM is treating centaurs as mounted or works with a weapon size fiddle.

One of the downsides with Centaurs is that you get the large size, but you still only have 5' reach.

Quad bonus for trip is on defense only, yes? Strong trippers nevertheless, though.

David
jaelis
12-04-06, 09:32 PM It never actually occurred to me that a centaur shouldn't be able to wield a lance one handed... they seem mechanically pretty much like a mounted human, and they get the double damage on a charge. But you're right, the text doesn't actually say so. I'd certainly let them do it that way, myself. What makes you say it is odd?

The tripping bonus is indeed defensive only, but reducing the probability of a counter trip is a good deal.
Howie23
12-04-06, 10:32 PM It never actually occurred to me that a centaur shouldn't be able to wield a lance one handed... they seem mechanically pretty much like a mounted human, and they get the double damage on a charge. But you're right, the text doesn't actually say so. I'd certainly let them do it that way, myself. What makes you say it is odd?

Mechanically, a centaur is a six limbed creature who has four legs and two arms. A centaur is not a mounted creature...it isn't riding anything. Strictly, it isn't eligable for any mounted feats unless riding a dragon or something, and there is even at least one feat that pretty much, if not exactly, duplicates a mounted feat: Centaur Trample and Trample. Centaur cannot take cover or avoid damage to the "mount" with a ride check. And so forth.

From a modelling standpoint, the one handed lance charge is the couched lance of a European Knight. I don't see how a centaur can get into that position, or something resembling it. There is no synergy for using the rider, saddle, and mount. If a centaur can charge one handed with a lance, why can't an ogre barbarian (similar speed and mass). I know the Monster Manual gives a centaur an x2 lance charge; note that Races of the Wild doesn't.

I can completely see homeruling it as you see fit within your style of play. In Living Greyhawk, the Centaur characters explicitly are not mounted and thus are inelligible for mounted feats for use without an odd mount. Centaur characters experience variation regarding the x2 lance charge as well, since LG uses the Races of the Wild centaur; some DMs rule one way, others rule the other.

The last isn't to provide a precedent, or suggest that's the way it should be done, rather, it's providing the background for why the issue would even come up for me. I play 95% of my D&D in LG.

David

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
peteyrock 12-03-06, 06:05 PM	Whether or not this issue has been tackled in the forums, I don't know. But, I need to get this straight. I don't understand where to apply secondary attack rules, especially when there are so many to choose from. Specifically: a Centaur Ranger that's level 20 will have many attacks to apply. There's the +20/+15/+10/+5. Throw in Ambidexterity and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting. Does the -5 second attack with the off-hand weapon go in after the initial attacks or at the end of the attack string (+18/+18/+13/+15/+10/+5 or +18/+18/+15/+10/+5/+0 or +18/+18/+13/+8/+3/-2). Then, Centaurs have a natural attack with two hooves that can be used as secondary attacks with a -5 penalty. Can you have three secondary attacks? I'm not going to type out all those attack bonuses. If someone can help me sort out how these attacks are supposed to go on paper, it would be great! Thanks.
Batshido 12-03-06, 06:21 PM	With Improved Two Weapon Fighting, the chain would go; +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+3 The penalties for two weapon fighting apply all the way down the line. Note that the above assumes that you are fighting with a double weapon or a light weapon in your off hand. Also, Ambidexterity doesn't exist anymore. The entire bonus has been subsumed into Two-Weapon Fighting. Here's the Core Feat list. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm
peteyrock 12-03-06, 06:25 PM	With Improved Two Weapon Fighting, the chain would go; +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+3 The penalties for two weapon fighting apply all the way down the line. Note that the above assumes that you are fighting with a double weapon or a light weapon in your off hand. Also, Ambidexterity doesn't exist anymore. The entire bonus has been subsumed into Two-Weapon Fighting. Here's the Core Feat list. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm great! thanks much!
DarkRhystar 12-03-06, 06:28 PM	Don't forget the Secondary attacks. Say your BAB is 20 and you're using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting. Main Hand: +18/+13/+8/+3 Off-Hand: +18/+13 Secondary: +13/+13 The result is a full 8 attacks at +18/+18/+13/+13/+13/+13/+8/+3. All attacks are decreased by 2 for Two-Weapon Fighting and Secondary attacks are decreased by another -5 (unless you have the multiweapon fighting feat).
Batshido 12-03-06, 07:07 PM	Don't forget the Secondary attacks. Say your BAB is 20 and you're using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting. Main Hand: +18/+13/+8/+3 Off-Hand: +18/+13 Secondary: +13/+13 The result is a full 8 attacks at +18/+18/+13/+13/+13/+13/+8/+3. All attacks are decreased by 2 for Two-Weapon Fighting and Secondary attacks are decreased by another -5 (unless you have the multiweapon fighting feat). Yeah, I forgot about those. Centaurs aren't my strong suit, I guess. ;)
peteyrock 12-03-06, 07:18 PM	i now have the realization that being a centaur is plain old fashioned not fair. combine these attack bonuses with rediculous strength, dexterity, and constitution. plus, monstrous HD, feats, and skill bonuses. i'm going to continue playing with this guy, see what kind of rediculous gear i can eventually get him, and be able to defeat damn-near anything.
braethias 12-03-06, 07:21 PM	Marilith Monk. Haha. If I recall, winds up being something like, 36 attacks or some such. Beat that. :P
peteyrock 12-03-06, 07:34 PM	alright. a centaur is a large creature. so, with the two weapon fighting, i could make the main hand weapon a greatsword and the off-hand weapon longsword. that's a lotta damage!
DarkRhystar 12-03-06, 07:35 PM	i now have the realization that being a centaur is plain old fashioned not fair. combine these attack bonuses with rediculous strength, dexterity, and constitution. plus, monstrous HD, feats, and skill bonuses. i'm going to continue playing with this guy, see what kind of rediculous gear i can eventually get him, and be able to defeat damn-near anything. The Centaur is fine (underpowered if anything). Keep in mind that when a Centaur is level 1 (4 RHD, 2 LA, 1 class), everyone else is level 7. At level 20, the Centaur will only be 14 (class level-wise).
peteyrock 12-03-06, 07:38 PM	The Centaur is fine (underpowered if anything). Keep in mind that when a Centaur is level 1 (4 RHD, 2 LA, 1 class), everyone else is level 7. At level 20, the Centaur will only be 14 (class level-wise). truth. but, allowing him to level his class to 20 makes for one serious dude. plus, my DM is kind of crappy and i'm taking full advantage of that.
braethias 12-03-06, 07:45 PM	You're a bad person for that. Remember to take Karmic strike. (requires dex 13+ and dodge.) Gives you an AoO on anyone who hits you with a melee attack, you declare you're using it in the beginning of the round, and you get -4 ac until your next action. the AoO effect lasts until your next turn too. Also, get a wrathful healing weapon. Yeah.
Batshido 12-03-06, 07:51 PM	You're a bad person for that. Remember to take Karmic strike. (requires dex 13+ and dodge.) Gives you an AoO on anyone who hits you with a melee attack, you declare you're using it in the beginning of the round, and you get -4 ac until your next action. the AoO effect lasts until your next turn too. Also, get a wrathful healing weapon. Yeah. You're probably better off just going with Robilars Gambit from PHBII. You take an extra 4 damage, but you don't have to have Dodge, which is a terrible feat IMHO.
peteyrock 12-03-06, 07:55 PM	thanks for tips. i'll be sure and look into them. however, rangers don't exactly get a large amount of feats in terms of free choice ones like fighters. and, yes. yes, i am a bad person
ShinAkuma2 12-03-06, 09:14 PM	alright. a centaur is a large creature. so, with the two weapon fighting, i could make the main hand weapon a greatsword and the off-hand weapon longsword. that's a lotta damage! Why not just use a large longsword and a large shortsword? You do the same damage, and avoid the size penalty to your attacks.
jaelis 12-03-06, 11:45 PM	Try using a lance in one hand and light flail in the other. Getting reach and double damage on a charge is too good to pass up. Then invest in Combat Expertise and Improved Trip... with your size bonus, quadruped bonus, and good strength, you are an awesome tripper. Unfortuately, CE is a bit hard to get with the Int penalty, but if you can pull it off, you'll be styling.
Howie23 12-04-06, 01:55 PM	Try using a lance in one hand and light flail in the other. Getting reach and double damage on a charge is too good to pass up. Then invest in Combat Expertise and Improved Trip... with your size bonus, quadruped bonus, and good strength, you are an awesome tripper. Unfortuately, CE is a bit hard to get with the Int penalty, but if you can pull it off, you'll be styling. I suppose it depends on the DM, but centaur lance w/one hand seems odd to me. I suppose it is consitent in the case where the DM is treating centaurs as mounted or works with a weapon size fiddle. One of the downsides with Centaurs is that you get the large size, but you still only have 5' reach. Quad bonus for trip is on defense only, yes? Strong trippers nevertheless, though. David
jaelis 12-04-06, 09:32 PM	It never actually occurred to me that a centaur shouldn't be able to wield a lance one handed... they seem mechanically pretty much like a mounted human, and they get the double damage on a charge. But you're right, the text doesn't actually say so. I'd certainly let them do it that way, myself. What makes you say it is odd? The tripping bonus is indeed defensive only, but reducing the probability of a counter trip is a good deal.
Howie23 12-04-06, 10:32 PM	It never actually occurred to me that a centaur shouldn't be able to wield a lance one handed... they seem mechanically pretty much like a mounted human, and they get the double damage on a charge. But you're right, the text doesn't actually say so. I'd certainly let them do it that way, myself. What makes you say it is odd? Mechanically, a centaur is a six limbed creature who has four legs and two arms. A centaur is not a mounted creature...it isn't riding anything. Strictly, it isn't eligable for any mounted feats unless riding a dragon or something, and there is even at least one feat that pretty much, if not exactly, duplicates a mounted feat: Centaur Trample and Trample. Centaur cannot take cover or avoid damage to the "mount" with a ride check. And so forth. From a modelling standpoint, the one handed lance charge is the couched lance of a European Knight. I don't see how a centaur can get into that position, or something resembling it. There is no synergy for using the rider, saddle, and mount. If a centaur can charge one handed with a lance, why can't an ogre barbarian (similar speed and mass). I know the Monster Manual gives a centaur an x2 lance charge; note that Races of the Wild doesn't. I can completely see homeruling it as you see fit within your style of play. In Living Greyhawk, the Centaur characters explicitly are not mounted and thus are inelligible for mounted feats for use without an odd mount. Centaur characters experience variation regarding the x2 lance charge as well, since LG uses the Races of the Wild centaur; some DMs rule one way, others rule the other. The last isn't to provide a precedent, or suggest that's the way it should be done, rather, it's providing the background for why the issue would even come up for me. I play 95% of my D&D in LG. David