Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dunedain 06-28-05, 06:58 PM	Quick question. I have a 10th level PC who recently obtained the Saint template from the BOED. One of the abilities of the saint is that he can create a Magic Circle again Evil as a free action. There aren't any limts given to how many times he can do this, so I take it that it is an "at will" ability which functions as a free action. So, going through Return to the TOEE, he comes across a huge elemental. Magic Circle against Evil states that, as long as this is active, an other-planar creature can't touch him physically. My question is this: The Saint decides to attack the elemental. After his attack routine, as a free action, he initiates his Magic Circle, so the elemental can't touch him. He waits until his next turn to act, attacks the elemental (thereby negating the Magic Circle) and then, as a free action, re-initiates the Magic Circle so the elemental can't attack him again. He does this every round so that he can effectively attack the elemental with impunity. Is this allowed by the rules, or is the elemental a victim of rules mis-representation?
Nom 06-28-05, 07:47 PM	Firstly, PFE protects against summoned creatures, not extra-planar creatures. If the elemental is summoned, then it cannot touch him. Otherwise it can. Secondly, "at will as a free action" is a recipe for brokenness. Only the weakest of abilities (like speech and dropping items in hand) should be both "at will" and a "free action".
masterofmayhem 06-28-05, 08:28 PM	In other words, yes, it is allowed by the rules (as far as I know), but, yes, it is highly imbalanced, as are most of the things in the Book of Exalted Cheese.
Shaken, not Stunned 06-28-05, 11:27 PM	You forgot that it also funtions as a globe of invulnerablity and that both effects are "double strength," what ever the hell that means.
masterofmayhem 06-29-05, 12:00 AM	Ooh, so it's not imbalanced, just broken. Silly me, assuming something from the BOEC might not be too terribly overpowered. :rolleyes: Oh, but wait, you have to be good alignment to use it . . . That makes everything OK. Because it's not like anyone ever plays good-aligned campaigns. :rolleyes: :D
Shaken, not Stunned 06-29-05, 12:24 AM	Yea, it's a real sacrifice.... Being good, I mean.
Ranix 06-29-05, 03:13 AM	It's not broken! The character took a dozen penalties and restrictions to get a template anf you say it's broken because the character can use magic circle on summoned monsters? Saint might be broken for other reasons, but magic circle at will as a free action is NOT one of them. Maybe if it was Magic Missile at will as a free action, you MIGHT have a case. But Magic Circle?!
Colmarr 06-29-05, 03:27 AM	Nom has hit on the most important issue. If the elemental isn't summoned, it's not affected by the magic circle. Another possible solution is that the elemental can ready an action to attack the PC after the PC attacks it. The elemental's action occurs immediately after the PC's attack, and the "Saint" therefore has no time to trigger the magic circle before getting pounded.
tarkin 06-29-05, 11:46 AM	No, it is not allowed. You guys missed the abuse he tried to sneak in. Your turn allows you to do any and all of the following: Move + standard action Full Round Action. plus DM allowed limit of free actions. There is NO "extra time" When you complete your Full Round Action, then your turn is OVER. You don't have time to do a single Free Action after your Full Round Action is done, all Free Actions must be done BEFORE the Full Round Action completes. He could however do the following: Full Round Attack, raise the Circle, take a 5ft step away. But then next round the monster will NOT step forward, so he has to do 5ft step forward, Full Round Attack and then not be allowed to raise the Circle, leaving him vunerable, every other round. You get twice the attacks the monster does, but still are vunerable. Also, during the off rounds the monster may be healing himself, or doing other buff things. Or you could do a single attack, raise the Circle, do a Move Action. But the monster is allowed to do a Readied Action. So this means when doing that you both get a single attack that round, so it is not that smart.
karthos 06-29-05, 12:00 PM	There is NO "extra time" When you complete your Full Round Action, then your turn is OVER. You don't have time to do a single Free Action after your Full Round Action is done, all Free Actions must be done BEFORE the Full Round Action completes. That's a pretty weak argument Tarkin, and not supported anywhere by the rules. The fact that he could take a 5 foot step after his full round action mean there obviously is a little time after the full round action. He would have no problems activating the circle. To me the bigger issue would be that if the saint takes a full attack action, 5 foot steps back and then activates the circle, the elemental will be within the radius of the circle. This would mean that he is warded from evil and can move within it freely. For the tactic to work you could only take standard actions and then move away, which will provoke AoOs from the elemental.
Dunedain 06-29-05, 02:48 PM	About the "summoned" part of the Magic Circle, that's true. But the elemental is summoned, so it's moot in relation to the question. There is NO "extra time" When you complete your Full Round Action, then your turn is OVER. I can't agree with that, at least in the sense that I'm talking about with the Magic Circle. If I can make a full attack, then move 5'- then I can make a full round action and do a free action (such as, make a full round action- then drop my weapons). Another possible solution is that the elemental can ready an action to attack the PC after the PC attacks it. The elemental's action occurs immediately after the PC's attack, and the "Saint" therefore has no time to trigger the magic circle before getting pounded. I've been looking at this possibility and it does seem to be the elementals only hope. It brings up another question, though, regarding "time". The free action rule states "Free actions don’t take any time at all"; so to say "the Saint has no time to ..." seems like that can't apply. The Saint must have all of the time in the world to perform an action which doesn't take "any time at all". You know? Supposing that the elemental decides to ready an action which is triggered by "when the Saint initiates his Magic Circle" it would seem that the elemental should be able to get a hit in right before the free action. Okay, now, if that happens, my Saint then decides to ready his Magic Circle for "when the elemental attacks". You see? So, even if the elemental waits until after the Saint attacks, and readies his attack- he's still going to lose because the Saint's Magic Circle is readied against the elemental's attack! The elemental weeps tears of frustration, lamenting that "It's just not fair!" I can't see any way for the elemental to win in this situation. A part of me just wants to say "Forget it, I just won't use the Magic Circle at all". But then, another part of me says "Screw that, it's my ability and I'm going to use my abilities to win this battle". As an aside, I didn't take the Saint template; the DM made me take it as a part of some funky pact that I had to make with some power in order to save the group from dying.
tarkin 06-29-05, 03:03 PM	You guys misunderstood what I said. Here are the possiblities. 1) Take 5ft step during or before you do anything. Then when you take your last attack, your round is over. 2) Take the 5ft step after you do anything. So I do agree with you that you may insert the Free Action after your last attack if you then take a 5ft step. But that is the only way to do it. If you do this, and ONLY if you do this, do you have extra time to do the Free action. Free actions can only be done DURING your turn, not a second after. What you guys are trying to do is cheat the game by taking your action then AFTER you are done, doing a Free Action. Be honest - that is the entire "plan". You want to attack, then after you are done, raise up your circle. You are specifically attempting to get around the rule about not getting Free Actions when your turn is over by "sneaking it in" just before your turn is over. Doing a Free action after your turn is over is not allowed. You can only do it before your turn ends and your turn ends when you have completed your Full Round action and taken the 5ft step. Any other interpreation leads to silly abuses. Like the one he tried here.
Dunedain 06-29-05, 03:15 PM	Here are the possiblities. 1) Take 5ft step during or before you do anything. Then when you take your last attack, your round is over. 2) Take the 5ft step after you do anything. If you do this, and ONLY if you do this, do you have extra time to do the Free action. Free actions can only be done DURING your turn, not a second after. What you guys are trying to do is cheat the game by taking your action then AFTER you are done, doing a Free Action. I'm not sure how that is "cheat"ing the game if it's legal. Be honest - that is the entire "plan". You want to attack, then after you are done, raise up your circle. That is the plan, yes. Full round action followed by a free action. Doing a Free action after your turn is over is not allowed. Right. But I'm doing the free action during my turn, after my full round action. You can only do it before your turn ends and your turn ends when you have completed your Full Round action and taken the 5ft step. I'm not going to be taking any 5' steps. I'm going to be doing a full round action followed by a free action. For all intents and purposes, simply replace the movement action which follows the full round action, with a free action (which is definitely legal since a free action takes no time at all, while a move action takes time).
Elthbert 06-29-05, 03:28 PM	I'm not sure how that is "cheat"ing the game if it's legal. That is the plan, yes. Full round action followed by a free action. Right. But I'm doing the free action during my turn, after my full round action. I'm not going to be taking any 5' steps. I'm going to be doing a full round action followed by a free action. For all intents and purposes, simply replace the movement action which follows the full round action, with a free action (which is definitely legal since a free action takes no time at all, while a move action takes time). I think Tarkin is technically right, even if it doesn't seem to make much sense from a common sense point of view, however you could just as easily make a 5 foot step to the side of the elemental and stay within range of him so that you don't have these problems.
Zherog 06-29-05, 04:16 PM	All other arguments aside for just a moment... Attacking a neutral creature in this manner doesn't seem like a very "exalted" thing to do. If I were the DM in this instance, you'd be running the risk of losing your exalted feats (and therefore your template). Exalted needs to be "better" than good. That's the whole balancing point to all the stuff. It's a very thin line that you walk as an exalted character, and there's a lot you need to sacrifice.
Elthbert 06-29-05, 04:29 PM	IO don't see how this is a failing of exalted status, the elemental is being summoned by a evil guy, bent on the destruction of the world ToEE was the module in question. Sounds like stoping him is a pretty exalted thing to do. That being said on the whole I agree with you, many people get away with BS and that is whatmakes the Exalted feats broken.
Vahenir 06-29-05, 04:37 PM	I don't know.. a 'turn' is described as a sequence of actions that a character performs. I imagine then, you can take a Free Action at any time so long as it is still technically your turn (i.e. the next person in Initiative hasn't done anything yet). Your turn ends when you are finished taking your actions. So I don't see where free actions are forbidden at the -end- of your turn, strictly according to the RAW. As a DM, I would allow, and have allowed, free actions at the end of a turn. But as with -anything-, the DM should be free to abjudicate against previous rulings if he feels the rules are being abused somehow.
Dunedain 06-29-05, 04:59 PM	I think Tarkin is technically right, even if it doesn't seem to make much sense from a common sense point of view, however you could just as easily make a 5 foot step to the side of the elemental and stay within range of him so that you don't have these problems. I'm still having to emphatically disagree with that. A free action is defined as taking no time at all. Clearly a free action can follow a full round action in your turn. It would be the same as making a full round action, then shouting "surrunder!" afterward. The rules seem to me to be clear on this. The only thing I am wondering about is the elementals ability to retaliate; if any ability even exists. IO don't see how this is a failing of exalted status, the elemental is being summoned by a evil guy, bent on the destruction of the world ToEE was the module in question. Sounds like stoping him is a pretty exalted thing to do. That being said on the whole I agree with you, many people get away with BS and that is whatmakes the Exalted feats broken. Yes, and these elementals (there have been two so far) are actually evil, if I recall correctly, because I was adding d8 to my damage. I'm sure we will be facing more of them. The party has been having a real tough time with them, and I thought the Saint would use his abilities to their fullest to help the party and, in the long run, defeat the arch-evil. I don't think that using an ability to attack with impunity against beings bent on destruction is somehow "non-exhalted". As a DM, I would allow, and have allowed, free actions at the end of a turn. But as with -anything-, the DM should be free to abjudicate against previous rulings if he feels the rules are being abused somehow. True enough, and I think the DM is actually going to rule against my strategy. I wondered if it were technically legal, at any rate.
WolfSong 06-29-05, 05:35 PM	You guys misunderstood what I said. Here are the possiblities. 1) Take 5ft step during or before you do anything. Then when you take your last attack, your round is over. 2) Take the 5ft step after you do anything. So I do agree with you that you may insert the Free Action after your last attack if you then take a 5ft step. But that is the only way to do it. If you do this, and ONLY if you do this, do you have extra time to do the Free action. Free actions can only be done DURING your turn, not a second after. What you guys are trying to do is cheat the game by taking your action then AFTER you are done, doing a Free Action. Be honest - that is the entire "plan". You want to attack, then after you are done, raise up your circle. You are specifically attempting to get around the rule about not getting Free Actions when your turn is over by "sneaking it in" just before your turn is over. Doing a Free action after your turn is over is not allowed. You can only do it before your turn ends and your turn ends when you have completed your Full Round action and taken the 5ft step. Any other interpreation leads to silly abuses. Like the one he tried here. I'm going to have to disagree with you also Tarkin and go along with the Munchkins. I don't see anythign anywhere that states that your turn is over the instant you Full round action is done (unless your taking a 5 ft step.) Technically speaking I don't really think thatis the problem, the problem is with allowing an At will free action as many times as you want. That being said I think the DM should always keep an eye out for things which break the system and tweak them so they make more sense, essentially go with "If it seems to good to be true, it should be too good to be true." WolfSong
Greyvar 06-29-05, 05:37 PM	The elementals in TOEE aren't summoned, they're called; but yes, they are evil.
Colmarr 06-29-05, 05:52 PM	Okay, now, if that happens, my Saint then decides to ready his Magic Circle for "when the elemental attacks". You see? So, even if the elemental waits until after the Saint attacks, and readies his attack- he's still going to lose because the Saint's Magic Circle is readied against the elemental's attack! The elemental weeps tears of frustration, lamenting that "It's just not fair!" In order for the saint to ready his action to raise the magic circle, he can't be full-attacking. In fact, as ready is a standard action, he can't be attacking at all. In effect, you create a stalemate between the elemental and the saint. The elemental can't attack because the magic circle will be triggered, and the saint can't attack because then the elemental will get it's readied attack. How effective that stalemate is will depend on who is most likely to win the combat with the elemental and the saint out of the equation... If it really is that much of an issue, and assuming we're talking about Summon Monster VII (the first time Huge elementals appear in the list), simply have the spellcaster sommon something else instead. Remember that PFE protects only against natural attacks that require the summoned creature to touch the protected PC. Chain devils and Xill (SMVI) and Bearded devils (SMV) use manufactured weapons so they can attack the PCs. If you summon Chain devils or Xill with SMVII, you get 1d3 of them. If you summon Bearded devils with SMVII, you get 1d4+1.
Elthbert 06-29-05, 05:55 PM	The elementals in TOEE aren't summoned, they're called; but yes, they are evil. Ah see this isn't even an issue then.
Greyvar 06-29-05, 07:19 PM	I guess I should add that most of them are called (or gated in some cases), but there's a couple instances where it specifically mentions that they're summoned, or something the players do will summon some (trying to keep spoilers out of this), but most of the "set" encounters with elementals are called ones.
ajmastrean 06-30-05, 09:59 AM	So, now that we're done deciding that the Elementals are not summoned, therefore the majority of the original post is solved...I have something to say about Tarkin's position. I agree. A 5 foot step is listed as "NO ACTION" in this...SRD Table (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/actionsInCombat.html). And previously defined... Not an Action: Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don’t take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else. So, a 5 foot step is so much less of an action than a free action...and being the only other action allowed at the end of a full attack, one could not (assuming you agree with the sequence of allowed actions) take a free action after their full attack. Also, this is nice... However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free. but, there is always this... Full-Round Action: ... You can also perform free actions (see below). So, I guess the real discussion is what the sequence of actions is (and which are allowed at what time) in a turn (and when does your turn actually end...so on).
Vahenir 06-30-05, 11:04 AM	I don't think "when your turn" ends is really up for debate either. According to the Player's Handbook glossary, a turn is defined as "the portion of each combat round in which a particular character acts." So if you're not done 'acting' - your turn isn't over. You are allowed to take as many free actions as the DM allows every time you take a turn. Nowhere that I can recall does the PH or DMG claim a free action can only be taken at a particular time in the turn. In which case, it's pretty clear. If you can take a free action whenever you want - then your turn hasn't ended until you've taken the last free actions your DM is allowing, in which case free actions can be taken at the end of your turn because your turn isn't over until you're finished taking actions.
Arishem 06-30-05, 11:36 AM	Maybe its just me, but i always understood a free action to happen only when taking another action, not between actions. So it ould happen simultaniosly to one of the other actions you take in a round. Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free.