Attack of Opportunity and Feint Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Attack of Opportunity and Feint Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
FreshAtUT
09-05-07, 09:11 PM 1. I know that it is possible to intentionally fail a saving throw. Is it possible to intentionally be vulnerable to an attack of opportunity when making a 5 foot step? Basically, I am wondering if you can use the Improved Feint (PHB I) feat and the Tumbling Feint (PHB II) feat all in the same round. You would take a 5 foot step, use the Tumble skill to avoid the attack of opportunity, feint as a move action, then attack. I know it's exploiting the rules, but I was curious if it would even be possible.

2. Is it possible to feint using a ranged weapon? The PHB doesn't specify melee or ranged, so I assume it would be possible.
Kouk
09-05-07, 10:05 PM 1. I know that it is possible to intentionally fail a saving throw. Is it possible to intentionally be vulnerable to an attack of opportunity when making a 5 foot step? Basically, I am wondering if you can use the Improved Feint (PHB I) feat and the Tumbling Feint (PHB II) feat all in the same round. You would take a 5 foot step, use the Tumble skill to avoid the attack of opportunity, feint as a move action, then attack. I know it's exploiting the rules, but I was curious if it would even be possible.

2. Is it possible to feint using a ranged weapon? The PHB doesn't specify melee or ranged, so I assume it would be possible.

I would allow intentionally provoking, because there are also other things you could do to provoke an attack of opportunity. You might fiddle with an item, or drop to Prone and Stand up and then 5ft, drink a potion (or what appears to be a potion) etc. It is just letting your guard down, you should be able to do that intentionally if you want.

I can't say this trick would work against everyone though, not more than once, if they are intelligent.

Nothing says you can't Feint with a Ranged weapon, but you can't get the benefits unless you attack with a melee weapon. I suppose you could try feinting from 30 ft away, then argue that you draw a weapon as you move toward the target and your next attack counts as if you feinted him.

I think it may be that the DM will rule you can only Feint in melee range though.
jaelis
09-05-07, 10:56 PM 1. Is it possible to intentionally be vulnerable to an attack of opportunity when making a 5 foot step?

Yes, I agree with Kouk that you can provoke an AoO as a free action whenever you want. But I don't think it would accomplish your goal, because you can't tumble 5 ft as a free action... tumbling is always a move action.

2. Is it possible to feint using a ranged weapon? The PHB doesn't specify melee or ranged, so I assume it would be possible.
While you technically could feint with a ranged weapon, you would have to be in melee combat to do it. For instance, standing next to your opponent with your bow. The rule is

You can also use Bluff to mislead an opponent in melee combat (so that it can’t dodge your next attack effectively).

And then you would have to make a melee attack to get the benefit, like Kouk points out.
Dheran
09-06-07, 09:11 AM Yes, I agree with Kouk that you can provoke an AoO as a free action whenever you want. But I don't think it would accomplish your goal, because you can't tumble 5 ft as a free action... tumbling is always a move action. A 5' adjustment is "not an action" rather than a free action. But Tumble isn't restricted to move actions:
You can try to reduce damage from a fall as an instant reaction only once per fall. -- PH skill rule; no action involved
Tumble 10 feet as a "5-foot step" (Extreme Tumbling table, Oriental Adventures) -- not an action
ToB Tiger Claw "Sudden Leap" maneuver -- swift action:As with any movement, you can attempt a Tumble check to avoid any attacks you provoke with this sudden leap.

As far as the original question goes, the RAW answer is no:Take 5-Foot Step

You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity.
jaelis
09-06-07, 09:18 AM Fair enough. What I was really intending to say was that I don't think you can use tumble to avoid an AoO without actually taking a move action.
Dheran
09-06-07, 09:34 AM 2. Is it possible to feint using a ranged weapon? The PHB doesn't specify melee or ranged, so I assume it would be possible. The PH doesn't put too many qualifiers on feinting:Feinting in Combat

You can also use Bluff to mislead an opponent in melee combat (so that it can’t dodge your next attack effectively). To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by your target’s Sense Motive check, but in this case, the target may add its base attack bonus to the roll along with any other applicable modifiers.

If your Bluff check result exceeds this special Sense Motive check result, your target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) for the next melee attack you make against it. This attack must be made on or before your next turn.There is no requirement that you use a melee weapon, or threaten the opponent, or even be able to see the opponent. Depending on how you parse it, it may only work onan opponent in melee combat so that could be a limitation; check with your DM. But it does restrict the benefits to your next melee attack, and the rules are such that anybody with good BAB and a decent investment in Sense Motive is unfeintable. Given the high investment in Bluff involved I think being able to feint at any range, with any (or no) weapon, is still unimpressive.
Dheran
09-06-07, 09:54 AM Fair enough. What I was really intending to say was that I don't think you can use tumble to avoid an AoO without actually taking a move action. Yeah, I understand. It just pushes my buttons whenever the rules make an absolute statement about how the game mechanics work, even where there are clear examples that this is incorrect. The Tumble absolute statement about move actions is contradicted a mere 3 lines later where they mention the instant reaction to reduce falling damage.

As far as your point goes, jaelis, I think the DC 40 Extreme Tumbling check to change a 5' adjustment to a 10' adjustment, and the language in the Sudden Leap maneuver description, pretty well refute the annoying absolute statement about requiring a move action in the PH. Anytime you move, I think you can Tumble.
Mojo_Rat
09-06-07, 12:52 PM I do not think the exceptions refute the 'absolute' statement of Tumble. ITs just that An Absolute statement thathas Exceptions.

Why try to create the wierd Aoo outside of game rules? Why not just walk 10' around your oponent and trigger an Aoo? Although it seems wierd to want to trigger an AoO in a situation it is not supposed o be in then try to force tumble to avoid it.

Unless you have some effect that your trying to create a 'free' situation for it to arise in.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
FreshAtUT 09-05-07, 09:11 PM	1. I know that it is possible to intentionally fail a saving throw. Is it possible to intentionally be vulnerable to an attack of opportunity when making a 5 foot step? Basically, I am wondering if you can use the Improved Feint (PHB I) feat and the Tumbling Feint (PHB II) feat all in the same round. You would take a 5 foot step, use the Tumble skill to avoid the attack of opportunity, feint as a move action, then attack. I know it's exploiting the rules, but I was curious if it would even be possible. 2. Is it possible to feint using a ranged weapon? The PHB doesn't specify melee or ranged, so I assume it would be possible.
Kouk 09-05-07, 10:05 PM	1. I know that it is possible to intentionally fail a saving throw. Is it possible to intentionally be vulnerable to an attack of opportunity when making a 5 foot step? Basically, I am wondering if you can use the Improved Feint (PHB I) feat and the Tumbling Feint (PHB II) feat all in the same round. You would take a 5 foot step, use the Tumble skill to avoid the attack of opportunity, feint as a move action, then attack. I know it's exploiting the rules, but I was curious if it would even be possible. 2. Is it possible to feint using a ranged weapon? The PHB doesn't specify melee or ranged, so I assume it would be possible. I would allow intentionally provoking, because there are also other things you could do to provoke an attack of opportunity. You might fiddle with an item, or drop to Prone and Stand up and then 5ft, drink a potion (or what appears to be a potion) etc. It is just letting your guard down, you should be able to do that intentionally if you want. I can't say this trick would work against everyone though, not more than once, if they are intelligent. Nothing says you can't Feint with a Ranged weapon, but you can't get the benefits unless you attack with a melee weapon. I suppose you could try feinting from 30 ft away, then argue that you draw a weapon as you move toward the target and your next attack counts as if you feinted him. I think it may be that the DM will rule you can only Feint in melee range though.
jaelis 09-05-07, 10:56 PM	1. Is it possible to intentionally be vulnerable to an attack of opportunity when making a 5 foot step? Yes, I agree with Kouk that you can provoke an AoO as a free action whenever you want. But I don't think it would accomplish your goal, because you can't tumble 5 ft as a free action... tumbling is always a move action. 2. Is it possible to feint using a ranged weapon? The PHB doesn't specify melee or ranged, so I assume it would be possible. While you technically could feint with a ranged weapon, you would have to be in melee combat to do it. For instance, standing next to your opponent with your bow. The rule is You can also use Bluff to mislead an opponent in melee combat (so that it can’t dodge your next attack effectively). And then you would have to make a melee attack to get the benefit, like Kouk points out.
Dheran 09-06-07, 09:11 AM	Yes, I agree with Kouk that you can provoke an AoO as a free action whenever you want. But I don't think it would accomplish your goal, because you can't tumble 5 ft as a free action... tumbling is always a move action. A 5' adjustment is "not an action" rather than a free action. But Tumble isn't restricted to move actions: You can try to reduce damage from a fall as an instant reaction only once per fall. -- PH skill rule; no action involved Tumble 10 feet as a "5-foot step" (Extreme Tumbling table, Oriental Adventures) -- not an action ToB Tiger Claw "Sudden Leap" maneuver -- swift action:As with any movement, you can attempt a Tumble check to avoid any attacks you provoke with this sudden leap. As far as the original question goes, the RAW answer is no:Take 5-Foot Step You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity.
jaelis 09-06-07, 09:18 AM	Fair enough. What I was really intending to say was that I don't think you can use tumble to avoid an AoO without actually taking a move action.
Dheran 09-06-07, 09:34 AM	2. Is it possible to feint using a ranged weapon? The PHB doesn't specify melee or ranged, so I assume it would be possible. The PH doesn't put too many qualifiers on feinting:Feinting in Combat You can also use Bluff to mislead an opponent in melee combat (so that it can’t dodge your next attack effectively). To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by your target’s Sense Motive check, but in this case, the target may add its base attack bonus to the roll along with any other applicable modifiers. If your Bluff check result exceeds this special Sense Motive check result, your target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) for the next melee attack you make against it. This attack must be made on or before your next turn.There is no requirement that you use a melee weapon, or threaten the opponent, or even be able to see the opponent. Depending on how you parse it, it may only work onan opponent in melee combat so that could be a limitation; check with your DM. But it does restrict the benefits to your next melee attack, and the rules are such that anybody with good BAB and a decent investment in Sense Motive is unfeintable. Given the high investment in Bluff involved I think being able to feint at any range, with any (or no) weapon, is still unimpressive.
Dheran 09-06-07, 09:54 AM	Fair enough. What I was really intending to say was that I don't think you can use tumble to avoid an AoO without actually taking a move action. Yeah, I understand. It just pushes my buttons whenever the rules make an absolute statement about how the game mechanics work, even where there are clear examples that this is incorrect. The Tumble absolute statement about move actions is contradicted a mere 3 lines later where they mention the instant reaction to reduce falling damage. As far as your point goes, jaelis, I think the DC 40 Extreme Tumbling check to change a 5' adjustment to a 10' adjustment, and the language in the Sudden Leap maneuver description, pretty well refute the annoying absolute statement about requiring a move action in the PH. Anytime you move, I think you can Tumble.
Mojo_Rat 09-06-07, 12:52 PM	I do not think the exceptions refute the 'absolute' statement of Tumble. ITs just that An Absolute statement thathas Exceptions. Why try to create the wierd Aoo outside of game rules? Why not just walk 10' around your oponent and trigger an Aoo? Although it seems wierd to want to trigger an AoO in a situation it is not supposed o be in then try to force tumble to avoid it. Unless you have some effect that your trying to create a 'free' situation for it to arise in.