Attack of opportunity versus reach, snatch an item [Archive] - Wizards Community

Attack of opportunity versus reach, snatch an item [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Greenebottle
12-12-06, 09:31 PM If an opponent has reach and preforms some action that provokes an attack of opportunity does the defender get to make an attack of opportunity if he doesn't threaten the opponent? For example, an enlarged opponent tries to grapple my character whos weilding a regular melee weapon from ten feet away, my character doesn't threaten the opponent so he gets no attack of opportunity, correct? An opponent weilding a reach weapon attempts to disarm the same character, again since he doesn't threaten, he can't make an attack of opportunity. Could that character make a sunder attempt?

Lastly, snatching an item is described under the disarm rules and says it must be done as an unarmed attack if you want to have the item in your hand, would that provoke two Aoos, one from disarm and one from unarmed attack?
Damionte
12-12-06, 11:09 PM Technically no they don't.

Some will house rule certain effect though to allow you to do so.

Usually things that have to do with weapons, like Disarm or Sunder.

By the rules though no you can't.
Vegepygmy
12-13-06, 12:48 AM If an enemy makes an attack against me that would provoke an attack of opportunity (such as a disarm or grapple attempt), do I get the attack of opportunity if I can’t reach him? Would the Close-Quarters Fighting feat help at all?

Strictly speaking, if you don’t threaten an enemy, you can’t make attacks of opportunity against that enemy. Thus, if an ogre tried to sunder your elf’s longsword from 10 feet away, you wouldn’t get an attack of opportunity against the ogre (since an elf wielding a longsword doesn’t threaten an enemy 10 feet away). This is true even if the ogre is reaching out with his hand, such as when trying to grapple you.

Even the Close-Quarters Fighting feat doesn’t help, since that feat applies only when the attack of opportunity against a grappling foe normally would be denied by “a feat or special ability that would normally bypass the attack” and lists Improved Grapple and improved grab as examples.

If, as DM, this bothers your sensibilities and you and your players are willing to bend the letter of the rules a bit, consider the following house rule that the Sage has used in his games in the past: If a foe would provoke an attack of opportunity with any action that brings him (or something he holds) into contact with you or your space, you may make an attack of opportunity against the foe (or the object he holds, if that’s what’s contacting you). This means that an ogre trying to initiate a grapple would provoke an attack of opportunity that you could make against the ogre (since his hand and arm are clearly coming within your reach to grab you), while the same ogre trying to sunder your weapon with his greatclub would provoke an attack of opportunity that you could make only against the greatclub (that is, with a disarm or sunder attempt).I hope that helps.
risner
12-13-06, 01:01 AM 1) opponent tries to grapple my character whos weilding a regular melee weapon from ten feet away, my character doesn't threaten the opponent so he gets no attack of opportunity, correct?

2) An opponent weilding a reach weapon attempts to disarm the same character, again since he doesn't threaten, he can't make an attack of opportunity.

3) Could that character make a sunder attempt?

4) would that provoke two Aoos, one from disarm and one from unarmed attack?

1) If you don't threaten, you can't AoO them. (FAQ p44)

2) Same

3) You can Sunder as your AoO, but only if you threaten.

4) You would provoke only one AoO from the Disarm performed as an unarmed attack. You need to threaten and be considered armed.

My house rule is basically identical to the one suggested in the FAQ and I based it on PHB p139 "You provoke the attack of opportunity because you have to bring your body close to your opponent." If they attack you, and you threaten adjacent, you can AoO them on Grapple or a special attack with an unarmed attemtp. If they Disarm, Trip, or Sunder with a weapon, you are limited to Disarming or Sundering the weapon.

Edit: Grr, I should reload a page before I post, Vegepygmy beat me to it by 13 mins.
Greenebottle
12-14-06, 01:13 PM Thanks, this is exactly what I was looking for.
Dheran
12-14-06, 03:21 PM Lastly, snatching an item is described under the disarm rules and says it must be done as an unarmed attack if you want to have the item in your hand You can also use the Sleight of Hand skill if the item is the size of a light weapon or smaller and not sheathed or being wielded. Use of the skill in melee provokes an Attack of Opportunity (as normal for a standard action skill use in combat), and the attempt fails if you take any damage from the AoO. However, as you are filching and not attacking that round, you can go into total defense mode and apply a dodge bonus to AC: +4 minimum, or +6 if you have 5+ ranks in Tumble.
Tony Vargas
12-14-06, 03:49 PM If an opponent has reach and preforms some action that provokes an attack of opportunity does the defender get to make an attack of opportunity if he doesn't threaten the opponent?Technically, no. A perfectly reasonable variant, though, is to allow the defender to take an AoO vs the opponent's weapon (sunder or disarm), or if the opponent is unarmed, a regular AoO (though probably not an SA, for instance, since you're likely attacking a 'limb' of some kind).

Such a variant alters the balance between reach and the various feats that negate AoOs, however, making reach a bit less of an advantage, and increasing the desireability of those feats (particularly Improved Disarm and Improved Sunder, since, under the variant they're useful to both reach-advantaged characters who want to use those manuevers, and non-reach characters wanting to be able to take AoOs vs reach weapons), so you'd want to take that into consideration before implementing it. If you think reach is already a bit weak (say because cover seems to be preventing many reach-based AoOs) it might not be a good idea. If you find that AoO-negating feats are seeing little use, with characters frequently using Reach weapons to avoid AoOs instead, it might be worth it.
mvincent
12-14-06, 05:24 PM The most favored compromise I've seen on these boards is to not allow AoO's if you don't actually threaten the opponent, but to allow a readied action to attack an opponent's weapon, arm, etc. when it comes within reach.
Tony Vargas
12-14-06, 05:40 PM If you're going to allow one of those, it'd seem reasonable to allow the other, as well. They're really quite similar - both rest on the radical idea that if something is physically touching you, you might be able to reach it.

I'd offer a different compromise: that you can take an AoO using the Sunder attack option, or Disarm (if the opponent is armed), but nothing else (that is, you use the Sunder mechanic - which, itself, provokes, to resolve the AoO vs an attacker not using a manufactured weapon). Normally 'sundering' an unarmed opponent would just be an attack, but, in this instance (as with hydra heads) it might not be unreasonable - perhaps, when resolving the Sunder attempt, the provoking character's AC (sans size penalty?) could be used as a minimum for success, as well. I think it makes it a little too hard to stab a giant in the hand when it tries to pick you up (something I consider a classic heroic fantasy 'bit'), but at least it becomes a possibility.
mvincent
12-14-06, 06:42 PM If you're going to allow one of those, it'd seem reasonable to allow the other, as well. They're really quite similar -While I acknowledge your reasoning, they feel completely different to me (and others who have discussed it). Certainly though, any of the above methods are reasonable, but most have indicated that the 'ready an action' option felt the best (based on several previous threads discussing the subject). Certainly though, use what's best for you.
Gilfalas
12-14-06, 07:34 PM It would be one AoO. A single, taken action can only trigger one AoO from a single opponent, I beleive this is specified in the AoO rules themselves or under combat reflexes.

Even if that were NOT true, the enemy would need combat reflexes to get a second AoO anyways.
Vegepygmy
12-14-06, 08:04 PM You can also use the Sleight of Hand skill if the item is the size of a light weapon or smaller and not sheathed or being wielded. Use of the skill in melee provokes an Attack of Opportunity (as normal for a standard action skill use in combat), and the attempt fails if you take any damage from the AoO. However, as you are filching and not attacking that round, you can go into total defense mode and apply a dodge bonus to AC: +4 minimum, or +6 if you have 5+ ranks in Tumble.Only if you can somehow perform two standard actions in one turn.
Dheran
12-15-06, 02:52 AM Only if you can somehow perform two standard actions in one turn. I knew I should have read that over more carefully before going to lunch; thanks for pointing out that I didn't finish the thought.
Action
Any Sleight of Hand check normally is a standard action. However, you may perform a Sleight of Hand check as a free action by taking a -20 penalty on the check.

Total defense is a standard action. Sleight of Hand is normally a standard action also, but with a -20 penalty you can instead perform it as a free action. The DC to lift a small item from a person is 20, and even though Sleight of Hand is opposed by the target's Spot skill, having them Spot you doesn't keep you from filching the item. I guess it shows that I've been playing some skilled Rogues when I consider getting 40 on a Sleight of Hand check an accomplishable goal. :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Greenebottle 12-12-06, 09:31 PM	If an opponent has reach and preforms some action that provokes an attack of opportunity does the defender get to make an attack of opportunity if he doesn't threaten the opponent? For example, an enlarged opponent tries to grapple my character whos weilding a regular melee weapon from ten feet away, my character doesn't threaten the opponent so he gets no attack of opportunity, correct? An opponent weilding a reach weapon attempts to disarm the same character, again since he doesn't threaten, he can't make an attack of opportunity. Could that character make a sunder attempt? Lastly, snatching an item is described under the disarm rules and says it must be done as an unarmed attack if you want to have the item in your hand, would that provoke two Aoos, one from disarm and one from unarmed attack?
Damionte 12-12-06, 11:09 PM	Technically no they don't. Some will house rule certain effect though to allow you to do so. Usually things that have to do with weapons, like Disarm or Sunder. By the rules though no you can't.
Vegepygmy 12-13-06, 12:48 AM	If an enemy makes an attack against me that would provoke an attack of opportunity (such as a disarm or grapple attempt), do I get the attack of opportunity if I can’t reach him? Would the Close-Quarters Fighting feat help at all? Strictly speaking, if you don’t threaten an enemy, you can’t make attacks of opportunity against that enemy. Thus, if an ogre tried to sunder your elf’s longsword from 10 feet away, you wouldn’t get an attack of opportunity against the ogre (since an elf wielding a longsword doesn’t threaten an enemy 10 feet away). This is true even if the ogre is reaching out with his hand, such as when trying to grapple you. Even the Close-Quarters Fighting feat doesn’t help, since that feat applies only when the attack of opportunity against a grappling foe normally would be denied by “a feat or special ability that would normally bypass the attack” and lists Improved Grapple and improved grab as examples. If, as DM, this bothers your sensibilities and you and your players are willing to bend the letter of the rules a bit, consider the following house rule that the Sage has used in his games in the past: If a foe would provoke an attack of opportunity with any action that brings him (or something he holds) into contact with you or your space, you may make an attack of opportunity against the foe (or the object he holds, if that’s what’s contacting you). This means that an ogre trying to initiate a grapple would provoke an attack of opportunity that you could make against the ogre (since his hand and arm are clearly coming within your reach to grab you), while the same ogre trying to sunder your weapon with his greatclub would provoke an attack of opportunity that you could make only against the greatclub (that is, with a disarm or sunder attempt).I hope that helps.
risner 12-13-06, 01:01 AM	1) opponent tries to grapple my character whos weilding a regular melee weapon from ten feet away, my character doesn't threaten the opponent so he gets no attack of opportunity, correct? 2) An opponent weilding a reach weapon attempts to disarm the same character, again since he doesn't threaten, he can't make an attack of opportunity. 3) Could that character make a sunder attempt? 4) would that provoke two Aoos, one from disarm and one from unarmed attack? 1) If you don't threaten, you can't AoO them. (FAQ p44) 2) Same 3) You can Sunder as your AoO, but only if you threaten. 4) You would provoke only one AoO from the Disarm performed as an unarmed attack. You need to threaten and be considered armed. My house rule is basically identical to the one suggested in the FAQ and I based it on PHB p139 "You provoke the attack of opportunity because you have to bring your body close to your opponent." If they attack you, and you threaten adjacent, you can AoO them on Grapple or a special attack with an unarmed attemtp. If they Disarm, Trip, or Sunder with a weapon, you are limited to Disarming or Sundering the weapon. Edit: Grr, I should reload a page before I post, Vegepygmy beat me to it by 13 mins.
Greenebottle 12-14-06, 01:13 PM	Thanks, this is exactly what I was looking for.
Dheran 12-14-06, 03:21 PM	Lastly, snatching an item is described under the disarm rules and says it must be done as an unarmed attack if you want to have the item in your hand You can also use the Sleight of Hand skill if the item is the size of a light weapon or smaller and not sheathed or being wielded. Use of the skill in melee provokes an Attack of Opportunity (as normal for a standard action skill use in combat), and the attempt fails if you take any damage from the AoO. However, as you are filching and not attacking that round, you can go into total defense mode and apply a dodge bonus to AC: +4 minimum, or +6 if you have 5+ ranks in Tumble.
Tony Vargas 12-14-06, 03:49 PM	If an opponent has reach and preforms some action that provokes an attack of opportunity does the defender get to make an attack of opportunity if he doesn't threaten the opponent?Technically, no. A perfectly reasonable variant, though, is to allow the defender to take an AoO vs the opponent's weapon (sunder or disarm), or if the opponent is unarmed, a regular AoO (though probably not an SA, for instance, since you're likely attacking a 'limb' of some kind). Such a variant alters the balance between reach and the various feats that negate AoOs, however, making reach a bit less of an advantage, and increasing the desireability of those feats (particularly Improved Disarm and Improved Sunder, since, under the variant they're useful to both reach-advantaged characters who want to use those manuevers, and non-reach characters wanting to be able to take AoOs vs reach weapons), so you'd want to take that into consideration before implementing it. If you think reach is already a bit weak (say because cover seems to be preventing many reach-based AoOs) it might not be a good idea. If you find that AoO-negating feats are seeing little use, with characters frequently using Reach weapons to avoid AoOs instead, it might be worth it.
mvincent 12-14-06, 05:24 PM	The most favored compromise I've seen on these boards is to not allow AoO's if you don't actually threaten the opponent, but to allow a readied action to attack an opponent's weapon, arm, etc. when it comes within reach.
Tony Vargas 12-14-06, 05:40 PM	If you're going to allow one of those, it'd seem reasonable to allow the other, as well. They're really quite similar - both rest on the radical idea that if something is physically touching you, you might be able to reach it. I'd offer a different compromise: that you can take an AoO using the Sunder attack option, or Disarm (if the opponent is armed), but nothing else (that is, you use the Sunder mechanic - which, itself, provokes, to resolve the AoO vs an attacker not using a manufactured weapon). Normally 'sundering' an unarmed opponent would just be an attack, but, in this instance (as with hydra heads) it might not be unreasonable - perhaps, when resolving the Sunder attempt, the provoking character's AC (sans size penalty?) could be used as a minimum for success, as well. I think it makes it a little too hard to stab a giant in the hand when it tries to pick you up (something I consider a classic heroic fantasy 'bit'), but at least it becomes a possibility.
mvincent 12-14-06, 06:42 PM	If you're going to allow one of those, it'd seem reasonable to allow the other, as well. They're really quite similar -While I acknowledge your reasoning, they feel completely different to me (and others who have discussed it). Certainly though, any of the above methods are reasonable, but most have indicated that the 'ready an action' option felt the best (based on several previous threads discussing the subject). Certainly though, use what's best for you.
Gilfalas 12-14-06, 07:34 PM	It would be one AoO. A single, taken action can only trigger one AoO from a single opponent, I beleive this is specified in the AoO rules themselves or under combat reflexes. Even if that were NOT true, the enemy would need combat reflexes to get a second AoO anyways.
Vegepygmy 12-14-06, 08:04 PM	You can also use the Sleight of Hand skill if the item is the size of a light weapon or smaller and not sheathed or being wielded. Use of the skill in melee provokes an Attack of Opportunity (as normal for a standard action skill use in combat), and the attempt fails if you take any damage from the AoO. However, as you are filching and not attacking that round, you can go into total defense mode and apply a dodge bonus to AC: +4 minimum, or +6 if you have 5+ ranks in Tumble.Only if you can somehow perform two standard actions in one turn.
Dheran 12-15-06, 02:52 AM	Only if you can somehow perform two standard actions in one turn. I knew I should have read that over more carefully before going to lunch; thanks for pointing out that I didn't finish the thought. Action Any Sleight of Hand check normally is a standard action. However, you may perform a Sleight of Hand check as a free action by taking a -20 penalty on the check. Total defense is a standard action. Sleight of Hand is normally a standard action also, but with a -20 penalty you can instead perform it as a free action. The DC to lift a small item from a person is 20, and even though Sleight of Hand is opposed by the target's Spot skill, having them Spot you doesn't keep you from filching the item. I guess it shows that I've been playing some skilled Rogues when I consider getting 40 on a Sleight of Hand check an accomplishable goal. :)