Attack Routine for Lycanthropes (Animal Form) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Attack Routine for Lycanthropes (Animal Form) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
KangTheCallipygian
01-19-05, 03:45 PM Using the RAW, can a BAB +6 character who has contracted lycanthropy make a full attack with 2 unarmed strikes followed by a secondary natural bite attack while in dire rat form? I may have overlooked something (or possibly some things), but I don't recall any rule limiting the ability to make unarmed strikes to certain creature types; however, it would seem a bit strange for a dire rat to do this... Is it just me?

Also, what is a wererat's proper alignment? The SRD's Common Lycanthropes table lists "chaotic evil" as their preferrence, whereas the table containing the sample wererat lists "always lawful evil"... It's my barbarian who's contracted the curse, so the lawful vs. chaotic issue is important (ie. can I rage or not?) Which table is the primary source in this case?

Just wondering; thanks for any clarification! I may have a few more questions, but the answers to these will determine which ones I actually end up asking.

Kang
masterofmayhem
01-19-05, 08:24 PM Using the RAW, can a BAB +6 character who has contracted lycanthropy make a full attack with 2 unarmed strikes followed by a secondary natural bite attack while in dire rat form? I may have overlooked something (or possibly some things), but I don't recall any rule limiting the ability to make unarmed strikes to certain creature types; however, it would seem a bit strange for a dire rat to do this... Is it just me?

I'm pretty sure you can do that (by the RAW), although you would still suffer the normal TWF penalties, along with the -5 to your bite. Considering the weirdness of the situation, it would really be up to the DM as to whther or not you can do it, although I believe it i suported by the rules.

It would be perfectly normal to do it in hybrid form, though.

Also, what is a wererat's proper alignment? The SRD's Common Lycanthropes table lists "chaotic evil" as their preferrence, whereas the table containing the sample wererat lists "always lawful evil"... It's my barbarian who's contracted the curse, so the lawful vs. chaotic issue is important (ie. can I rage or not?) Which table is the primary source in this case?
Hmm . . . two tables . . . I don't know. In the end, I would say they are chaotic evil, because that table was made entirely to show alignments and stat bonuses, and because wererats just seem like rogues.
Pinky's brain
01-19-05, 08:36 PM Hell if you think that is weird, consider a monk lycanthrope using unarmed strike in a form with claws (2 unarmed strikes, 2 claws and a bite).
KangTheCallipygian
01-20-05, 01:31 PM I'm pretty sure you can do that (by the RAW), although you would still suffer the normal TWF penalties, along with the -5 to your bite.That's the way it seems to me also (though a dire rat making unarmed strikes struck me as just too weird not to at least ask around about), except for the bit about the TWF penalties; I don't believe they're meant to be applied when combining iterative attacks with natural ones:
From the SRD:
Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. These secondary attacks do not interfere with the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon does, but they take the usual –5 penalty (or –2 with the Multiattack feat) for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature’s primary natural weapon.I assume that, by virtue of not being a natural weapon, the unarmed strikes would qualify as "manufactured" weapons in this context.

Assuming I'm correct that TWF penalties don't apply here, would these be the right attack modifiers for a full attack?

Base creature: Half-orc BBN6, BAB +6, Str 20, currently in dire rat form:
Unarmed strike -> +6(BAB) + 5(str) + 1(small) = +12; 1d3+5(str)
Unarmed strike -> +1(BAB-5(iterative)) + 5(str) + 1(small) = +7; 1d3+5(str)
Bite -> +1(BAB-5(secondary)) + 5(str) + 1(small) = +7; 1d4+2(str/2) + disease & curse

I'm not sure about the second unarmed strike at this point. If "the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack," does that mean I can't make them iteratively after all before the secondary attack(s) begin? If that's the case, then I believe my full attack would actually be like this:

Base creature: Half-orc BBN6, BAB +6, Str 20, currently in dire rat form:
Unarmed strike -> +6(BAB) + 5(str) + 1(small) = +12; 1d3+5(str)
Bite -> +1(BAB-5(secondary)) + 5(str) + 1(small) = +7; 1d4+2(str/2) + disease & curse

Anyone know if either of these is correct? If so, which one is it; if not, then what would the correct full attack routine look like in terms of attack bonuses and damage dice?

Many thanks for the feedback so far...

Kang
masterofmayhem
01-20-05, 04:03 PM That's the way it seems to me also (though a dire rat making unarmed strikes struck me as just too weird not to at least ask around about), except for the bit about the TWF penalties; I don't believe they're meant to be applied when combining iterative attacks with natural ones:

Oops, I'm sorry, that was my mistake. I have no idea why I thought you were using TWF . . .

I assume that, by virtue of not being a natural weapon, the unarmed strikes would qualify as "manufactured" weapons in this context.

Assuming I'm correct that TWF penalties don't apply here, would these be the right attack modifiers for a full attack?

Base creature: Half-orc BBN6, BAB +6, Str 20, currently in dire rat form:
Unarmed strike -> +6(BAB) + 5(str) + 1(small) = +12; 1d3+5(str)
Unarmed strike -> +1(BAB-5(iterative)) + 5(str) + 1(small) = +7; 1d3+5(str)
Bite -> +1(BAB-5(secondary)) + 5(str) + 1(small) = +7; 1d4+2(str/2) + disease & curse

I'm not sure about the second unarmed strike at this point. If "the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack," does that mean I can't make them iteratively after all before the secondary attack(s) begin? If that's the case, then I believe my full attack would actually be like this:

Base creature: Half-orc BBN6, BAB +6, Str 20, currently in dire rat form:
Unarmed strike -> +6(BAB) + 5(str) + 1(small) = +12; 1d3+5(str)
Bite -> +1(BAB-5(secondary)) + 5(str) + 1(small) = +7; 1d4+2(str/2) + disease & curse

Anyone know if either of these is correct? If so, which one is it; if not, then what would the correct full attack routine look like in terms of attack bonuses and damage dice?

Many thanks for the feedback so far...

Kang

I assume that, by virtue of not being a natural weapon, the unarmed strikes would qualify as "manufactured" weapons in this context.
For attack modifier purposes, yes.

Assuming I'm correct that TWF penalties don't apply here, would these be the right attack modifiers for a full attack?

Base creature: Half-orc BBN6, BAB +6, Str 20, currently in dire rat form:
Unarmed strike -> +6(BAB) + 5(str) + 1(small) = +12; 1d3+5(str)
Unarmed strike -> +1(BAB-5(iterative)) + 5(str) + 1(small) = +7; 1d3+5(str)
Bite -> +1(BAB-5(secondary)) + 5(str) + 1(small) = +7; 1d4+2(str/2) + disease & curse

Looks right to me. Except for a small creature has an unarmed strike of 1d2.

I'm not sure about the second unarmed strike at this point. If "the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack," does that mean I can't make them iteratively after all before the secondary attack(s) begin? If that's the case, then I believe my full attack would actually be like this:

Base creature: Half-orc BBN6, BAB +6, Str 20, currently in dire rat form:
Unarmed strike -> +6(BAB) + 5(str) + 1(small) = +12; 1d3+5(str)
Bite -> +1(BAB-5(secondary)) + 5(str) + 1(small) = +7; 1d4+2(str/2) + disease & curse

Anyone know if either of these is correct? If so, which one is it; if not, then what would the correct full attack routine look like in terms of attack bonuses and damage dice?

No, you do get iterative attacks with your unarmed strikes. So it would be +12 (unarmed)/+7 (unarmed)/+7(bite).
KangTheCallipygian
01-20-05, 04:26 PM a small creature has a natural attack of 1d2Oops! You got me there, though I think you mean 'unarmed strike' (the dire rat's 'natural attack' being the bite, and me having double-checked that to indeed be 1d4). Thanks for pointing that out. All those unarmed strikes I mentioned should have been 1d2's, not d3's.

Thanks also for the confirmation on how mixing manufactured weapons and natural weapons works!

...According to 2 of us, at least! I'll try and remember to check this thread again later to see if and why anyone else may disagree.

Kang
masterofmayhem
01-20-05, 05:03 PM Oops! You got me there, though I think you mean 'unarmed strike' (the dire rat's 'natural attack' being the bite, and me having double-checked that to indeed be 1d4).
Yes, you're right. I can't seem to get anything right today . . .

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
KangTheCallipygian 01-19-05, 03:45 PM	Using the RAW, can a BAB +6 character who has contracted lycanthropy make a full attack with 2 unarmed strikes followed by a secondary natural bite attack while in dire rat form? I may have overlooked something (or possibly some things), but I don't recall any rule limiting the ability to make unarmed strikes to certain creature types; however, it would seem a bit strange for a dire rat to do this... Is it just me? Also, what is a wererat's proper alignment? The SRD's Common Lycanthropes table lists "chaotic evil" as their preferrence, whereas the table containing the sample wererat lists "always lawful evil"... It's my barbarian who's contracted the curse, so the lawful vs. chaotic issue is important (ie. can I rage or not?) Which table is the primary source in this case? Just wondering; thanks for any clarification! I may have a few more questions, but the answers to these will determine which ones I actually end up asking. Kang
masterofmayhem 01-19-05, 08:24 PM	Using the RAW, can a BAB +6 character who has contracted lycanthropy make a full attack with 2 unarmed strikes followed by a secondary natural bite attack while in dire rat form? I may have overlooked something (or possibly some things), but I don't recall any rule limiting the ability to make unarmed strikes to certain creature types; however, it would seem a bit strange for a dire rat to do this... Is it just me? I'm pretty sure you can do that (by the RAW), although you would still suffer the normal TWF penalties, along with the -5 to your bite. Considering the weirdness of the situation, it would really be up to the DM as to whther or not you can do it, although I believe it i suported by the rules. It would be perfectly normal to do it in hybrid form, though. Also, what is a wererat's proper alignment? The SRD's Common Lycanthropes table lists "chaotic evil" as their preferrence, whereas the table containing the sample wererat lists "always lawful evil"... It's my barbarian who's contracted the curse, so the lawful vs. chaotic issue is important (ie. can I rage or not?) Which table is the primary source in this case? Hmm . . . two tables . . . I don't know. In the end, I would say they are chaotic evil, because that table was made entirely to show alignments and stat bonuses, and because wererats just seem like rogues.
Pinky's brain 01-19-05, 08:36 PM	Hell if you think that is weird, consider a monk lycanthrope using unarmed strike in a form with claws (2 unarmed strikes, 2 claws and a bite).
KangTheCallipygian 01-20-05, 01:31 PM	I'm pretty sure you can do that (by the RAW), although you would still suffer the normal TWF penalties, along with the -5 to your bite.That's the way it seems to me also (though a dire rat making unarmed strikes struck me as just too weird not to at least ask around about), except for the bit about the TWF penalties; I don't believe they're meant to be applied when combining iterative attacks with natural ones: From the SRD: Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. These secondary attacks do not interfere with the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon does, but they take the usual –5 penalty (or –2 with the Multiattack feat) for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature’s primary natural weapon.I assume that, by virtue of not being a natural weapon, the unarmed strikes would qualify as "manufactured" weapons in this context. Assuming I'm correct that TWF penalties don't apply here, would these be the right attack modifiers for a full attack? Base creature: Half-orc BBN6, BAB +6, Str 20, currently in dire rat form: Unarmed strike -> +6(BAB) + 5(str) + 1(small) = +12; 1d3+5(str) Unarmed strike -> +1(BAB-5(iterative)) + 5(str) + 1(small) = +7; 1d3+5(str) Bite -> +1(BAB-5(secondary)) + 5(str) + 1(small) = +7; 1d4+2(str/2) + disease & curse I'm not sure about the second unarmed strike at this point. If "the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack," does that mean I can't make them iteratively after all before the secondary attack(s) begin? If that's the case, then I believe my full attack would actually be like this: Base creature: Half-orc BBN6, BAB +6, Str 20, currently in dire rat form: Unarmed strike -> +6(BAB) + 5(str) + 1(small) = +12; 1d3+5(str) Bite -> +1(BAB-5(secondary)) + 5(str) + 1(small) = +7; 1d4+2(str/2) + disease & curse Anyone know if either of these is correct? If so, which one is it; if not, then what would the correct full attack routine look like in terms of attack bonuses and damage dice? Many thanks for the feedback so far... Kang
masterofmayhem 01-20-05, 04:03 PM	That's the way it seems to me also (though a dire rat making unarmed strikes struck me as just too weird not to at least ask around about), except for the bit about the TWF penalties; I don't believe they're meant to be applied when combining iterative attacks with natural ones: Oops, I'm sorry, that was my mistake. I have no idea why I thought you were using TWF . . . I assume that, by virtue of not being a natural weapon, the unarmed strikes would qualify as "manufactured" weapons in this context. Assuming I'm correct that TWF penalties don't apply here, would these be the right attack modifiers for a full attack? Base creature: Half-orc BBN6, BAB +6, Str 20, currently in dire rat form: Unarmed strike -> +6(BAB) + 5(str) + 1(small) = +12; 1d3+5(str) Unarmed strike -> +1(BAB-5(iterative)) + 5(str) + 1(small) = +7; 1d3+5(str) Bite -> +1(BAB-5(secondary)) + 5(str) + 1(small) = +7; 1d4+2(str/2) + disease & curse I'm not sure about the second unarmed strike at this point. If "the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack," does that mean I can't make them iteratively after all before the secondary attack(s) begin? If that's the case, then I believe my full attack would actually be like this: Base creature: Half-orc BBN6, BAB +6, Str 20, currently in dire rat form: Unarmed strike -> +6(BAB) + 5(str) + 1(small) = +12; 1d3+5(str) Bite -> +1(BAB-5(secondary)) + 5(str) + 1(small) = +7; 1d4+2(str/2) + disease & curse Anyone know if either of these is correct? If so, which one is it; if not, then what would the correct full attack routine look like in terms of attack bonuses and damage dice? Many thanks for the feedback so far... Kang I assume that, by virtue of not being a natural weapon, the unarmed strikes would qualify as "manufactured" weapons in this context. For attack modifier purposes, yes. Assuming I'm correct that TWF penalties don't apply here, would these be the right attack modifiers for a full attack? Base creature: Half-orc BBN6, BAB +6, Str 20, currently in dire rat form: Unarmed strike -> +6(BAB) + 5(str) + 1(small) = +12; 1d3+5(str) Unarmed strike -> +1(BAB-5(iterative)) + 5(str) + 1(small) = +7; 1d3+5(str) Bite -> +1(BAB-5(secondary)) + 5(str) + 1(small) = +7; 1d4+2(str/2) + disease & curse Looks right to me. Except for a small creature has an unarmed strike of 1d2. I'm not sure about the second unarmed strike at this point. If "the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack," does that mean I can't make them iteratively after all before the secondary attack(s) begin? If that's the case, then I believe my full attack would actually be like this: Base creature: Half-orc BBN6, BAB +6, Str 20, currently in dire rat form: Unarmed strike -> +6(BAB) + 5(str) + 1(small) = +12; 1d3+5(str) Bite -> +1(BAB-5(secondary)) + 5(str) + 1(small) = +7; 1d4+2(str/2) + disease & curse Anyone know if either of these is correct? If so, which one is it; if not, then what would the correct full attack routine look like in terms of attack bonuses and damage dice? No, you do get iterative attacks with your unarmed strikes. So it would be +12 (unarmed)/+7 (unarmed)/+7(bite).
KangTheCallipygian 01-20-05, 04:26 PM	a small creature has a natural attack of 1d2Oops! You got me there, though I think you mean 'unarmed strike' (the dire rat's 'natural attack' being the bite, and me having double-checked that to indeed be 1d4). Thanks for pointing that out. All those unarmed strikes I mentioned should have been 1d2's, not d3's. Thanks also for the confirmation on how mixing manufactured weapons and natural weapons works! ...According to 2 of us, at least! I'll try and remember to check this thread again later to see if and why anyone else may disagree. Kang
masterofmayhem 01-20-05, 05:03 PM	Oops! You got me there, though I think you mean 'unarmed strike' (the dire rat's 'natural attack' being the bite, and me having double-checked that to indeed be 1d4). Yes, you're right. I can't seem to get anything right today . . .