Post/Author/DateTime	Post
darkInertia 10-02-04, 10:45 PM	Hello, quick question (and i think i'm going to answer it myself): If two characters are grappling, and another character wants to attack them, do you roll randomly between the two to determine which character is actually attacked? Table 8-6, p 151 says that you only do this for an attacker with a ranged attack, but it doesn't make sense to me (visually) that you are 100% guaranteed to hit a specific target when two characters are wrestling, e.g. What are people's opinions on this?
BW0222 10-03-04, 03:00 PM	>If two characters are grappling, and another character wants to attack >them, do you roll randomly between the two to determine which character >is actually attacked? Ranged attacks. Yes. Melee attacks. No. >Table 8-6, p 151 says that you only do this for an attacker with a ranged >attack, but it doesn't make sense to me (visually) that you are 100% >guaranteed to hit a specific target when two characters are wrestling, e.g. >What are people's opinions on this? AD&D rules are only a simulation of combat. Imagine yourself at a wresling match. Obviously, it would be easier to hit someone specific in a match standing next to them with a spear than throwing one from the stands. With a melee weapon, presumably you can put the spear tip on a specific person and then thrust. With a thrown spear, you have to hope that no one moves from the time you release to the time of impact. You can also assume that the melee attack is almost instantaneous once lined up while the ranged attack leave time for positions to change. The "can't hit the other person in melee" doesn't bother me as much as not considering relative size - especially in large size differences between grapplers. i.e. An ogre grappling with a halfling and his raven familiar and you have a 33% of hitting each? or in melee A rat is grappling and pinned by a lion. You swing a sword at the rat. At this point the "no cover, no change of hitting someone else" is a bit of a stretch. It is hard to just see the rat under the lion let alone thing a blow is going to avoid the lion entirely if it is aimed at the rat. However, with two generally similiar sized targets, I really don't have as much of an issue with there being no chance of hitting the wrong person with a melee weapon. I can assume you line your blow up accurately enough and it strikes quickly enough not to allow their relative positions to change. Thanks, Brett
darkInertia 10-04-04, 02:30 AM	I dunno... it seems rather static to say you could place your spear onto your target, and then strike. Even though it's only about 6 sec (a round), I envision the grapplers fighting each other every moment of that, moving around within the square, changing positions, etc. (remember that the action happens more smoothly than the turn-based initiative enforces.) I dont think that it's a guarantee that you would always hit your target (as opposed to hitting the other character in the grapple). For the ogre (large), halfling (small), raven (tiny) example, if they were all in the same square, you'd have a 8 in 11 chance to hit the ogre, 2 in 11 chance to hit the halfling, and a 1 in 11 chance to hit the raven. This uses the creatures' sizes as a scalar to modify the probabilities. I think that i'd also say if there's enough of a difference between the creatures, you can ignore this (since it's pretty much a given that you have a large enough area to target) assuming youre aiming for the larger target. Also, if one character is pinned in the grapple, then this miss chance is also negliable.
diaboli 10-04-04, 03:58 PM	Guess it depends on how you interpret the word "grapple". To me grappling can be anything from wrapping your arms around someone (this could also be considered a pin), grabbing an arm or leg, snatching a fist-sized piece of clothing, putting them in a headlock, to slapping a full-nelson on them (set-up is a grapple, once secured, a pin). Also pinning a foe doesn't mean that the target is prone, just that you have secured them with your grasp.
darkInertia 10-04-04, 04:20 PM	my interpretation of grapple is the combatants are within the same area (defined at least by 5-foot square), with direct physical contact (wrestling, judo, street brawling, etc.) with each other. a few of those examples you listed are (as you said) probably pins. imagine a volatile episode of any mid-day talk show (jerry springer, e.g.) when the ppl go at it, they're usually grappling. Now, most of the time the bouncers break it up by entering the grapple themselves. If they were to instead throw punches, aiming for a specific person, are they guaranteed to hit that person (as opposed to socking someone else?)
kjenks 10-04-04, 04:56 PM	When attacking into an existing grapple, there's no chance to hit the wrong opponent with a melee attack, only with a ranged attack.
Hypersmurf 10-04-04, 11:39 PM	The "can't hit the other person in melee" doesn't bother me as much as not considering relative size - especially in large size differences between grapplers. i.e. An ogre grappling with a halfling and his raven familiar and you have a 33% of hitting each? Well, it says "Roll randomly to see which grappling combatant you strike". If the DM says "I'll roll a d10; 1-7 it's the ogre, 8-9 it's the halfling, and 10 it's the bird", that's still rolling randomly to see which grappling combatant you strike. -Hyp.
darkInertia 10-05-04, 11:04 AM	I guess i'm convinced what the "actual" rules answer is. It seems that the no miss chance gives power back to the PCs (especially those with sneak attack) against enemy grapplers. I'll have to re-read the improved grab ability and the part where they can retain their dex bonus to AC, albeit making it harder to grapple for them.