Attacking from under sand? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Attacking from under sand? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
BaruMonkey
08-28-06, 12:34 PM As an Asherati race character (from Sandstorm), I am to sand like merfolk are to water. So I was wondering what rules would apply if I were to attack a monster from below while it's standing on sand.

I would imagine that I would have free movement through it and attack normally, while also having cover (I can see it but it can't see me), and the monster might also get a penalty to attack and/or damage rolls for not being able to swing a weapon (or fire a ranged one) through sand. These are just guesses though -- can I get a better ruling on this please?
BaruMonkey
08-28-06, 01:02 PM btw, if it matters, I'm a ranger, using the two-weapon combat style.
Salty_Boy
08-28-06, 01:11 PM This is the best existing example I can think of, from the Ankheg entry in the MM:

"An ankheg usually lies 5 to 10 feet below the surface until its antennae detect the approach of prey. It then burrows up to attack. (Treat this as a charge, even though the ankheg does not need to move 10 feet before attacking.)"

Also, if the opponent is unaware of your attack (basically a given unless they have Tremorsense) suddenly bursting out of the ground to attack would definitely warrant a surprise round. In the surprise round, however, you'd only get to use one weapon since 2WF requires a full-round action.
BaruMonkey
08-28-06, 01:25 PM Thanks for the tip. I didn't think of the surprise factor. It does look like the Ankheg differs on a few points, though. The main one being that that it seems to burrow up (with a charge) and then fight above-ground. What I'm looking to do is remain under the sand and swing from there throughout the fight.
tarkin
08-28-06, 01:37 PM I am not familiar with that race.

Do you get some kind of ability to see through the sand? Or are you attacking blindly?
Legdiwena
08-28-06, 01:39 PM wouldn't think you could fight from underground, just get surprise attack then combat as normal
LordPendragon
08-28-06, 01:47 PM I don't know the specifics of the race in question, but I'd tihnk that sand would create far too much drag to make swinging a weapon a viable option.

Now if you had a flintlock and just poked the barrel out...
Echo_that_Pains
08-28-06, 02:03 PM I would agree with LordPendragon on the entire first sentence. The only type of weapon i could see being used from underground would be a piercing item (spear, etc), but even then i would understand penalties for restricted movement/force in the thrust. I do not see how it could be done.
risner
08-28-06, 02:26 PM As an Asherati race character (from Sandstorm)

"... light out to 60 feet and shadowy illumination out to 120 feet. In ... loose ... sand, dust, or ash, ... to make out solid objects up to 60 feet away. Under the sand, this light is sufficient for navigation and general identification of objects, but not for reading, recognizing individuals, or other similar feats of finer perception. This ability does not allow an asherati to see invisible creatures or creatures with concealment more easily than normal."

At minimum both of you would have concealment from each other.

As for how I work it, if you have a chance to hit them, they have a chance to hit you (in other words, to hit them you have to leave the sand to strike which opens you up to them striking back unles you have spring attack or something.)
Silverthumb128
08-28-06, 02:27 PM Do you get some kind of ability to see through the sand? Or are you attacking blindly?

I wondered that as well. You'd need to be able to know where the opponent is, probably Tremorsense or something similar, and you'd also need something like a burrow speed. That's how the Ankheg is able to charge through the ground, because it can move through it quickly.
BaruMonkey
08-28-06, 02:30 PM Well, since "As a merfolk is to the sea as an asherati is to sand," (from the description of my Sandswim racial ability), I'd imagine that I could fight from under the surface of sand just like a merfolk would be able to fight someone who can walk on water. About my "burrow speed," the Sandswim ability says it's the same as my land speed (while in light armor with a light load).

As for being able to see it, I have a Body Lamp skill, "...the light allows an asherati to make out solid objects up to 60 feet away. Under the sand, this light is sufficient for navigation and general identification of objects, but not for reading ... or other feats of finer perception. ... Other creatures in the sand with the asherati do not gain this special sight, but they can see the sand take on a warm, orange glow."

Another thing I thought of, if this form of fighting is possible: Concealment. If I can see them, and they (at least partially) can't see me, could they get a miss chance?
tarkin
08-28-06, 03:19 PM Yes, you would get something. Maybe cover, maybe concealment.

How did you get the Body Lamp ability?

Is it racial?
BaruMonkey
08-28-06, 03:27 PM How did you get the Body Lamp ability? Is it racial?

Yes, it is a (quite useful) racial trait for asheratis.

FYI, a little summary of asherati specialties not mentioned above: we also get +1 Natural Armor, Natural Dryness (only need 1/4 normal water), Heat Endurance, can use Eagle's Claw as a martial weapon instead of exotic, +2 on Move Silently and Hide checks (another +2 to Hide if in a sandy area), and the Body Lamp can turn on the high beams once a day and Dazzle all enemies within 30 feet for a minute. But we do have a Water Vulnerability -- If totally soaked, we take -1 to attack, ability, and skill rolls, plus we can't hold our breath at all underwater.
Arvagor
08-28-06, 03:47 PM Another thing I thought of, if this form of fighting is possible: Concealment. If I can see them, and they (at least partially) can't see me, could they get a miss chance?Re-read what you quoted: "Under the sand, this light is sufficient for navigation and general identification of objects..." If (and it's a big if) it provides any benefit to seeing objects above ground, then they are just that -- objects with no details. Creatures above ground have, at a minimum, concealment from your attacks, while you have total concealment. If you're using the Body Lamp ability to navigate under the sand, the glow is also visible above ground, Meaning creatures above ground know at least what square you're in. Kind DMs should grant you cover as well, since it's difficult to argue that the ground does not block line of effect.

And you would have the same restrictions on attacking within sand as the aforementioned merfolk would have in water, i.e., piercing weapons only. Coming out of the ground far enough to use slashing or bludgeoning weapons would negate whatever concealment you were hoping to gain.

I play an asherati as well in one campaign, and I've had to think about many of these things. Generally, to save time spent arguing that could better be utilized playing, I generally ignore my SandSwim ability in combat, unless I need to get from one side of the battlefield to the other, and don't want to risk AoOs along the way...
tarkin
08-28-06, 03:54 PM I would definitely give you cover, but no concealment since you are glowing like a lightbulb.

I still like the race. Seems perfect for a wizard becoming an Earth Elemental Savant.
BaruMonkey
08-28-06, 04:40 PM ...Seems perfect for a wizard becoming an Earth Elemental Savant.
Their favored class is Rogue, but that Earth Elemental thing also sounds like a good idea.
ShinAkuma2
08-28-06, 06:47 PM It's also fun to mention that, if an Asherati cleric stops worshipping her racial goddess, she gets turned into a pillar of salt. XD

Now, where's that Evangelist build? :devil:
Arvagor
08-28-06, 09:32 PM It's also fun to mention that, if an Asherati cleric stops worshipping her racial goddess, she gets turned into a pillar of salt.That's only a rule that has been created for fitting the race into the Living Greyhawk campaign...
Schmendrick
08-29-06, 01:04 AM I think the most relevant existing rule is this:

An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks.
Rulebook
08-29-06, 01:51 PM Now if you had a flintlock and just poked the barrel out...

sand would jam the mechanism and keep it from firing? or just hold the lever immoble period? lol

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BaruMonkey 08-28-06, 12:34 PM	As an Asherati race character (from Sandstorm), I am to sand like merfolk are to water. So I was wondering what rules would apply if I were to attack a monster from below while it's standing on sand. I would imagine that I would have free movement through it and attack normally, while also having cover (I can see it but it can't see me), and the monster might also get a penalty to attack and/or damage rolls for not being able to swing a weapon (or fire a ranged one) through sand. These are just guesses though -- can I get a better ruling on this please?
BaruMonkey 08-28-06, 01:02 PM	btw, if it matters, I'm a ranger, using the two-weapon combat style.
Salty_Boy 08-28-06, 01:11 PM	This is the best existing example I can think of, from the Ankheg entry in the MM: "An ankheg usually lies 5 to 10 feet below the surface until its antennae detect the approach of prey. It then burrows up to attack. (Treat this as a charge, even though the ankheg does not need to move 10 feet before attacking.)" Also, if the opponent is unaware of your attack (basically a given unless they have Tremorsense) suddenly bursting out of the ground to attack would definitely warrant a surprise round. In the surprise round, however, you'd only get to use one weapon since 2WF requires a full-round action.
BaruMonkey 08-28-06, 01:25 PM	Thanks for the tip. I didn't think of the surprise factor. It does look like the Ankheg differs on a few points, though. The main one being that that it seems to burrow up (with a charge) and then fight above-ground. What I'm looking to do is remain under the sand and swing from there throughout the fight.
tarkin 08-28-06, 01:37 PM	I am not familiar with that race. Do you get some kind of ability to see through the sand? Or are you attacking blindly?
Legdiwena 08-28-06, 01:39 PM	wouldn't think you could fight from underground, just get surprise attack then combat as normal
LordPendragon 08-28-06, 01:47 PM	I don't know the specifics of the race in question, but I'd tihnk that sand would create far too much drag to make swinging a weapon a viable option. Now if you had a flintlock and just poked the barrel out...
Echo_that_Pains 08-28-06, 02:03 PM	I would agree with LordPendragon on the entire first sentence. The only type of weapon i could see being used from underground would be a piercing item (spear, etc), but even then i would understand penalties for restricted movement/force in the thrust. I do not see how it could be done.
risner 08-28-06, 02:26 PM	As an Asherati race character (from Sandstorm) "... light out to 60 feet and shadowy illumination out to 120 feet. In ... loose ... sand, dust, or ash, ... to make out solid objects up to 60 feet away. Under the sand, this light is sufficient for navigation and general identification of objects, but not for reading, recognizing individuals, or other similar feats of finer perception. This ability does not allow an asherati to see invisible creatures or creatures with concealment more easily than normal." At minimum both of you would have concealment from each other. As for how I work it, if you have a chance to hit them, they have a chance to hit you (in other words, to hit them you have to leave the sand to strike which opens you up to them striking back unles you have spring attack or something.)
Silverthumb128 08-28-06, 02:27 PM	Do you get some kind of ability to see through the sand? Or are you attacking blindly? I wondered that as well. You'd need to be able to know where the opponent is, probably Tremorsense or something similar, and you'd also need something like a burrow speed. That's how the Ankheg is able to charge through the ground, because it can move through it quickly.
BaruMonkey 08-28-06, 02:30 PM	Well, since "As a merfolk is to the sea as an asherati is to sand," (from the description of my Sandswim racial ability), I'd imagine that I could fight from under the surface of sand just like a merfolk would be able to fight someone who can walk on water. About my "burrow speed," the Sandswim ability says it's the same as my land speed (while in light armor with a light load). As for being able to see it, I have a Body Lamp skill, "...the light allows an asherati to make out solid objects up to 60 feet away. Under the sand, this light is sufficient for navigation and general identification of objects, but not for reading ... or other feats of finer perception. ... Other creatures in the sand with the asherati do not gain this special sight, but they can see the sand take on a warm, orange glow." Another thing I thought of, if this form of fighting is possible: Concealment. If I can see them, and they (at least partially) can't see me, could they get a miss chance?
tarkin 08-28-06, 03:19 PM	Yes, you would get something. Maybe cover, maybe concealment. How did you get the Body Lamp ability? Is it racial?
BaruMonkey 08-28-06, 03:27 PM	How did you get the Body Lamp ability? Is it racial? Yes, it is a (quite useful) racial trait for asheratis. FYI, a little summary of asherati specialties not mentioned above: we also get +1 Natural Armor, Natural Dryness (only need 1/4 normal water), Heat Endurance, can use Eagle's Claw as a martial weapon instead of exotic, +2 on Move Silently and Hide checks (another +2 to Hide if in a sandy area), and the Body Lamp can turn on the high beams once a day and Dazzle all enemies within 30 feet for a minute. But we do have a Water Vulnerability -- If totally soaked, we take -1 to attack, ability, and skill rolls, plus we can't hold our breath at all underwater.
Arvagor 08-28-06, 03:47 PM	Another thing I thought of, if this form of fighting is possible: Concealment. If I can see them, and they (at least partially) can't see me, could they get a miss chance?Re-read what you quoted: "Under the sand, this light is sufficient for navigation and general identification of objects..." If (and it's a big if) it provides any benefit to seeing objects above ground, then they are just that -- objects with no details. Creatures above ground have, at a minimum, concealment from your attacks, while you have total concealment. If you're using the Body Lamp ability to navigate under the sand, the glow is also visible above ground, Meaning creatures above ground know at least what square you're in. Kind DMs should grant you cover as well, since it's difficult to argue that the ground does not block line of effect. And you would have the same restrictions on attacking within sand as the aforementioned merfolk would have in water, i.e., piercing weapons only. Coming out of the ground far enough to use slashing or bludgeoning weapons would negate whatever concealment you were hoping to gain. I play an asherati as well in one campaign, and I've had to think about many of these things. Generally, to save time spent arguing that could better be utilized playing, I generally ignore my SandSwim ability in combat, unless I need to get from one side of the battlefield to the other, and don't want to risk AoOs along the way...
tarkin 08-28-06, 03:54 PM	I would definitely give you cover, but no concealment since you are glowing like a lightbulb. I still like the race. Seems perfect for a wizard becoming an Earth Elemental Savant.
BaruMonkey 08-28-06, 04:40 PM	...Seems perfect for a wizard becoming an Earth Elemental Savant. Their favored class is Rogue, but that Earth Elemental thing also sounds like a good idea.
ShinAkuma2 08-28-06, 06:47 PM	It's also fun to mention that, if an Asherati cleric stops worshipping her racial goddess, she gets turned into a pillar of salt. XD Now, where's that Evangelist build? :devil:
Arvagor 08-28-06, 09:32 PM	It's also fun to mention that, if an Asherati cleric stops worshipping her racial goddess, she gets turned into a pillar of salt.That's only a rule that has been created for fitting the race into the Living Greyhawk campaign...
Schmendrick 08-29-06, 01:04 AM	I think the most relevant existing rule is this: An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks.
Rulebook 08-29-06, 01:51 PM	Now if you had a flintlock and just poked the barrel out... sand would jam the mechanism and keep it from firing? or just hold the lever immoble period? lol