attacking past allies with reach weapon [Archive] - Wizards Community

attacking past allies with reach weapon [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
sapperland
12-20-04, 06:48 PM Assume you in a 10 foot wide hall. Two fighters in front row have sword and shield. You are in the 2nd row with a reach poll arm. If you attack the enemy in engaged with the fighters, do you suffer any minuses to hit (like with ranged weapons)? Also, do you cause any minuses for your allies to hit?
If you are attacking a large size enemy does this change anything? And finally, if you and the enemy are large and the two fighters are medium, would this change anything?

Thanks for the help on this.
Neofish
12-20-04, 07:01 PM Your target gets +4AC from "soft" cover, it's in the 3.5 PHB combat section.
mvincent
12-20-04, 07:56 PM If you are attacking a large size enemy does this change anything? And finally, if you and the enemy are large and the two fighters are medium, would this change anything?It can. Medium creatures count as "low cover" for large creatures, which means you can ignore the cover penalty if you are closer to the cover than your opponent.
Nom
12-20-04, 09:04 PM As Neofish alluded to, reach weapons use the cover rules as for ranged weapons, but do not suffer the "firing into melee" penalty.

Technically, mvincent, the rules don't distinguish between "low" and "normal" soft cover (typically creatures), but it's a common and sensible house rule.
warpdragon
12-20-04, 10:18 PM Unless you have levels in Exotic weapon master and took exotic reach
mvincent
12-21-04, 11:39 AM Technically, mvincent, the rules don't distinguish between "low" and "normal" soft cover (typically creatures), but it's a common and sensible house rule. Ya lost me. The rules do distinguish between "low" and "normal" soft cover, but are you saying that soft cover cannot also be low cover? Here are the appropriate bits from the SRD:Low Obstacles and Cover: A low obstacle (such as a wall no higher than half your height) provides cover, but only to creatures within 30 feet (6 squares) of it. The attacker can ignore the cover if he’s closer to the obstacle than his target.Soft Cover: Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Hide check.They don't seem mutually exclusive.
Nom
12-21-04, 05:58 PM Low obstacles are in the section on hard cover and only mention hard cover (low wall) as examples (PH pg 151). This would lead me to believe the discussion applies only to obstacles, not creatures (which are soft cover). I think the rules work fine for creatures too, though.
mvincent
12-21-04, 07:27 PM Low obstacles are in the section on hard cover and only mention hard cover (low wall) as examples (PH pg 151). This would lead me to believe the discussion applies only to obstacles, not creatures (which are soft cover). I think the rules work fine for creatures too, though.Ah... the PHB must present it differently than the SRD (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/CombatII.rtf) then. The SRD lists both under the heading of "Cover". No mention is made of card cover.
Nom
12-22-04, 06:52 AM Ah... the PHB must present it differently than the SRD (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/CombatII.rtf) then. The SRD lists both under the heading of "Cover". No mention is made of card cover.Yeah, beware the SRD. The PH (and DMG, and MM) is "the rules". The SRD is "the concise rules that you may include verbatim or augmented in 3rd party publications without breaching copyright (subject to certain conditions)".

That said, having reread the relevant pages of the PH carefully, the rules don't actually say in so many words that the low cover rules are only applicable to hard cover, though as I said the examples and arrangement do tend to suggest it. In my games, I use equivalent rules for "low soft cover", so it's only an issue of whether the rules are "core or house".
mvincent
12-22-04, 12:00 PM Yeah, beware the SRD. The PH (and DMG, and MM) is "the rules".I been using both and so far have very rarely found a descrepancy. When I have it's usually been the SRD that was more accurate (since it can be up-dated more often). Plus, the SRD is just easier to access while at work.

That said, having reread the relevant pages of the PH carefully, the rules don't actually say in so many words that the low cover rules are only applicable to hard cover, though as I said the examples and arrangement do tend to suggest it.Now that I finally have my hands on my PHB. it appears to be arranged identically to the SRD. It too lists both both low cover and soft cover under the heading of "Cover". No mention is made of hard cover.

Perhaps the tables threw you off?
Mad Monkey
12-22-04, 01:06 PM The PHB errata changed the soft cover rule.

Soft Cover
Player's Handbook, page 151
Soft cover works against ranged attacks, not melee
attacks.
In the first sentence of the paragraph, change “melee” to
“ranged.”

So, you can attack without penalty with your reach weapon.
Nom
12-22-04, 05:41 PM I been using both and so far have very rarely found a descrepancy. When I have it's usually been the SRD that was more accurate (since it can be up-dated more often).If by "more accurate" you mean "contains the current errata" (about 20 items), then yes. However, the SRD tends to omit examples, diagrams, and other explanatory or flavour text. As a result, it is not always as "comprehensive" as the PH. The core text is indeed the same.
Now that I finally have my hands on my PHB. it appears to be arranged identically to the SRD. It too lists both both low cover and soft cover under the heading of "Cover". No mention is made of hard cover.Cover

One of the best defenses available is cover. By taking cover behind a tree, a wall, the side of a wagon, or the battlements of a castle, you can protect yourself from attacks, especially ranged attacks, and also from being spotted.All of the above are hard cover. Soft cover turns up briefly in the next section...or through a square occupied by a creatureAfter a comment about melee vs ranged cover, we then have several sub-topics.
* Low obstacles and cover (including example of low wall)
* Cover and AoOs
* Cover and reflex saves
* Cover and hide checks
* Soft cover (does not provide reflex and hide benefits)
...

An interesting ordering, since the first and trailing are discussions of what provides cover (and how much), while the 2nd to 4th are standard benefits of having cover.

Having gone through like that, I agree with you. The "low obstacle" rule and the "soft cover" rule apply to any situation that meet the description, so a small creature in front of you would be "a soft low obstacle", and provide +4 AC and protection from AoO only.

Notice that according to pg 151, things that don't count as "walls" don't provide cover in regular melee (text and diagram).
The PHB errata changed the soft cover rule.

So, you can attack without penalty with your reach weapon.Incorrect. The PH errata changed this rule to be consistent with the rules I referenced above. Soft cover does not provide any protection against attacks made by adjacent enemies, and thus this rule needed to apply to ranged attacks only.

See first paragraph on pg 151 to see that "adjacent" is the definition of "melee" being used in discussions of cover. "When making an attack against a target that isn't adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks.". For the purpose of determining cover, a reach weapon is treated as a ranged weapon in all respects.
Tsuul
12-22-04, 06:55 PM Soft Cover
Player's Handbook, page 151
Soft cover works against ranged attacks, not melee
attacks.
In the first sentence of the paragraph, change “melee” to
“ranged.”The Errata is very confusing. But it does not change that reach weapons use the rules for "ranged" weapons instead of "melee" weapons for cover.
So reach weapons are affected by soft-cover.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sapperland 12-20-04, 06:48 PM	Assume you in a 10 foot wide hall. Two fighters in front row have sword and shield. You are in the 2nd row with a reach poll arm. If you attack the enemy in engaged with the fighters, do you suffer any minuses to hit (like with ranged weapons)? Also, do you cause any minuses for your allies to hit? If you are attacking a large size enemy does this change anything? And finally, if you and the enemy are large and the two fighters are medium, would this change anything? Thanks for the help on this.
Neofish 12-20-04, 07:01 PM	Your target gets +4AC from "soft" cover, it's in the 3.5 PHB combat section.
mvincent 12-20-04, 07:56 PM	If you are attacking a large size enemy does this change anything? And finally, if you and the enemy are large and the two fighters are medium, would this change anything?It can. Medium creatures count as "low cover" for large creatures, which means you can ignore the cover penalty if you are closer to the cover than your opponent.
Nom 12-20-04, 09:04 PM	As Neofish alluded to, reach weapons use the cover rules as for ranged weapons, but do not suffer the "firing into melee" penalty. Technically, mvincent, the rules don't distinguish between "low" and "normal" soft cover (typically creatures), but it's a common and sensible house rule.
warpdragon 12-20-04, 10:18 PM	Unless you have levels in Exotic weapon master and took exotic reach
mvincent 12-21-04, 11:39 AM	Technically, mvincent, the rules don't distinguish between "low" and "normal" soft cover (typically creatures), but it's a common and sensible house rule. Ya lost me. The rules do distinguish between "low" and "normal" soft cover, but are you saying that soft cover cannot also be low cover? Here are the appropriate bits from the SRD:Low Obstacles and Cover: A low obstacle (such as a wall no higher than half your height) provides cover, but only to creatures within 30 feet (6 squares) of it. The attacker can ignore the cover if he’s closer to the obstacle than his target.Soft Cover: Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Hide check.They don't seem mutually exclusive.
Nom 12-21-04, 05:58 PM	Low obstacles are in the section on hard cover and only mention hard cover (low wall) as examples (PH pg 151). This would lead me to believe the discussion applies only to obstacles, not creatures (which are soft cover). I think the rules work fine for creatures too, though.
mvincent 12-21-04, 07:27 PM	Low obstacles are in the section on hard cover and only mention hard cover (low wall) as examples (PH pg 151). This would lead me to believe the discussion applies only to obstacles, not creatures (which are soft cover). I think the rules work fine for creatures too, though.Ah... the PHB must present it differently than the SRD (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/CombatII.rtf) then. The SRD lists both under the heading of "Cover". No mention is made of card cover.
Nom 12-22-04, 06:52 AM	Ah... the PHB must present it differently than the SRD (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/CombatII.rtf) then. The SRD lists both under the heading of "Cover". No mention is made of card cover.Yeah, beware the SRD. The PH (and DMG, and MM) is "the rules". The SRD is "the concise rules that you may include verbatim or augmented in 3rd party publications without breaching copyright (subject to certain conditions)". That said, having reread the relevant pages of the PH carefully, the rules don't actually say in so many words that the low cover rules are only applicable to hard cover, though as I said the examples and arrangement do tend to suggest it. In my games, I use equivalent rules for "low soft cover", so it's only an issue of whether the rules are "core or house".
mvincent 12-22-04, 12:00 PM	Yeah, beware the SRD. The PH (and DMG, and MM) is "the rules".I been using both and so far have very rarely found a descrepancy. When I have it's usually been the SRD that was more accurate (since it can be up-dated more often). Plus, the SRD is just easier to access while at work. That said, having reread the relevant pages of the PH carefully, the rules don't actually say in so many words that the low cover rules are only applicable to hard cover, though as I said the examples and arrangement do tend to suggest it.Now that I finally have my hands on my PHB. it appears to be arranged identically to the SRD. It too lists both both low cover and soft cover under the heading of "Cover". No mention is made of hard cover. Perhaps the tables threw you off?
Mad Monkey 12-22-04, 01:06 PM	The PHB errata changed the soft cover rule. Soft Cover Player's Handbook, page 151 Soft cover works against ranged attacks, not melee attacks. In the first sentence of the paragraph, change “melee” to “ranged.” So, you can attack without penalty with your reach weapon.
Nom 12-22-04, 05:41 PM	I been using both and so far have very rarely found a descrepancy. When I have it's usually been the SRD that was more accurate (since it can be up-dated more often).If by "more accurate" you mean "contains the current errata" (about 20 items), then yes. However, the SRD tends to omit examples, diagrams, and other explanatory or flavour text. As a result, it is not always as "comprehensive" as the PH. The core text is indeed the same. Now that I finally have my hands on my PHB. it appears to be arranged identically to the SRD. It too lists both both low cover and soft cover under the heading of "Cover". No mention is made of hard cover.Cover One of the best defenses available is cover. By taking cover behind a tree, a wall, the side of a wagon, or the battlements of a castle, you can protect yourself from attacks, especially ranged attacks, and also from being spotted.All of the above are hard cover. Soft cover turns up briefly in the next section...or through a square occupied by a creatureAfter a comment about melee vs ranged cover, we then have several sub-topics. * Low obstacles and cover (including example of low wall) * Cover and AoOs * Cover and reflex saves * Cover and hide checks * Soft cover (does not provide reflex and hide benefits) ... An interesting ordering, since the first and trailing are discussions of what provides cover (and how much), while the 2nd to 4th are standard benefits of having cover. Having gone through like that, I agree with you. The "low obstacle" rule and the "soft cover" rule apply to any situation that meet the description, so a small creature in front of you would be "a soft low obstacle", and provide +4 AC and protection from AoO only. Notice that according to pg 151, things that don't count as "walls" don't provide cover in regular melee (text and diagram). The PHB errata changed the soft cover rule. So, you can attack without penalty with your reach weapon.Incorrect. The PH errata changed this rule to be consistent with the rules I referenced above. Soft cover does not provide any protection against attacks made by adjacent enemies, and thus this rule needed to apply to ranged attacks only. See first paragraph on pg 151 to see that "adjacent" is the definition of "melee" being used in discussions of cover. "When making an attack against a target that isn't adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks.". For the purpose of determining cover, a reach weapon is treated as a ranged weapon in all respects.
Tsuul 12-22-04, 06:55 PM	Soft Cover Player's Handbook, page 151 Soft cover works against ranged attacks, not melee attacks. In the first sentence of the paragraph, change “melee” to “ranged.”The Errata is very confusing. But it does not change that reach weapons use the rules for "ranged" weapons instead of "melee" weapons for cover. So reach weapons are affected by soft-cover.